How Much Fill Timer Before Agitation?

[Chetlaham]

Question- how much time would you allow for filling before the start of agitation in a continuous advance timing scenario? The machine can keep filling once agitation starts.

Here is an example of why I ask:



The cycle is on hot / warm. On hot the machine in the video takes 6 minutes 35 seconds to fill to full, on warm it takes 3 minutes 33 seconds to fill to full.

How much time should be allocated for filling before agitation starts? I'm thinking 5 minutes, but unsure if any harm would come to the clothes if the machine starts agitating at 3/4 full of water.

 

[appnut]

Why can't you just let the machine do what it's designed to do Filll to the water level set by that knob. Just walk away if the slow hot fill drives you nuts. Better yet sounds like you need to attend to the fill valve or sediment.

 

[kenmoreguy64]

Chet - I have a question as well…Why even ask about fill times in this scenario? The machine has a pressure switch for good reason. So why ask about something that we aren’t going to be faced with? Five minutes or twenty five, who cares?

Are there not enough topics to choose from regarding vintage washers from the last fifty years or so without making up something that was never produced on the subject model?

Let’s get back to relevant topics such as repairs, collecting, and real machine functionality.

Gordon

 

[Chetlaham]

Timed fill periods before the start of wash was very much a thing with vintage washers including Whirlpool belt drives and commercial coin operated direct drives.

I'd like to see select vintage washers put back into production some of which may have for the reasons of longevity, simplicity, cost and serviceability a dedicated timed fill period before the start of agitation.

With the current 1995 design if the pressure switch failed the washer would continue filling indefinitely until manually stopped.

With to much allocated time like 20 minutes a washer would fill until the pressure switch would cut out in say 6 minutes and then wait 14 minutes in soak wasting time while on the other side allocating to little time like 3 minutes would cause agitation to start prematurely before the tub has had a chance to fill completely.

I've gotten the spray rinsing water usage down but still unsure where to nail down the timed fill period prior to the start of wash.

 

[combo52]

No whirlpool automatic washer or combination washer dryer ever had time Phil controlling the water level in the machine.

Just because the timer might be running for the first increment of fill or two that doesn’t mean it’s a time fill machine in any way shape or form.

The great thing is modern machine machines with computers almost all will time out if there’s no water detected by the water level sensor system this prevents massive flood damage to homes when a hose comes off the pump where the drain hose falls on the floor, etc. this is one of the many Advantages of electronic controls in machines. The amount of property damage saved is enormous every year.

John L

 

[DADoES]

The only timing I've seen related to fill on a WP is some older machines (such as our 1962 LJA32) that had a one-increment "rinse fill" following the first spin. The pressure switch was of course still in control of the fill level. The operational effect is a short wait for agitation if the target level is attained before "rinse fill" elapsed. Otherwise the timer would advance to the rinse agitate increment and stop until the target level is reached. The only instance of a rinse agitation delay in our operation of the machine was on low level with a warm rinse, being that the city water pressure was quite high.

I never understood what was the reason for a "rinse fill" increment. It was later eliminated.

I had a bit of a spat with Ted once on a service call. I don't recall what was the customer's complaint but we ran the machine through a cycle. He noticed the timer advance during the rinse fill and said there must be a problem with it, it isn't supposed to advance until the fill is done and agitation starts. I explained about the "rinse fill" increment and he argued that isn't possible. There was another instance of "rinse fill" advance on later service call, he didn't say anything that time.

 

[Chetlaham]

More than two, seven timed fill increments were typical in WP BD and commercial DDs.

While you are correct these timed fill periods did not control the water level in the tub (in that the timer would eventually stop if the pressure switch was not satisfied) if it tripped before the timed fill period was up the machine would sit and soak until the timer advanced beyond the fill increments. So several minutes of pause/soaking is possible on a small water level with high fill volume.

These tech sheets are not mine or altered in any way, they are Whirlpool's.

 

[Chetlaham]

The only timing I've seen related to fill on a WP is some older machines (such as our 1962 LJA32) that had a one-increment "rinse fill" following the first spin. The pressure switch was of course still in control of the fill level. The operational effect is a short wait for agitation if the target level is attained before "rinse fill" elapsed. Otherwise the timer would advance to the rinse agitate increment and stop until the target level is reached. The only instance of a rinse agitation delay in our operation of the machine was on low level with a warm rinse, being that the city water pressure was quite high.

I never understood what was the reason for a "rinse fill" increment. It was later eliminated.

I had a bit of a spat with Ted once on a service call. I don't recall what was the customer's complaint but we ran the machine through a cycle. He noticed the timer advance during the rinse fill and said there must be a problem with it, it isn't supposed to advance until the fill is done and agitation starts. I explained about the "rinse fill" increment and he argued that isn't possible. There was another instance of "rinse fill" advance on later service call, he didn't say anything that time.

I am curious as well. I have two theories though neither could be the real reason in reality:


1) Some older Whirlpool incremental advance timers had up to 72 increments. Some or all the increments would have to be less than 7.5 degrees. It is possible the increment advance degree between spin and fill is to short for all the contacts that are required to engage and disengage in the correct order in the correct amount with enough safety buffer in between them so the process is spread out across two advancements. One advancement is to turn the motor off and en-engage the fill contacts, the other is to open the bypass and start the motor.

2) The rinse agitation period was only two minutes in a single increment on most belt drives. Incremental advance timers leave off from where they were manually advanced time wise. So if the machine was in spin and 110 seconds into an increment, if the user pulled the knob in and set it to the final two minute rinse increment the machine would only hold the new increment for 10 seconds upon the pressure switch being satisfied- advancing into drain only after 10 seconds. The two minute fill increment acts as a catch-up buffer and assures that no matter what the rinse will be at least two minutes long.

In my concepts I have always included lead-in and lead-out buffers for this exact reason.

 

[phillymatt53]

Logically, the fill time is determined by the home's water pressure, which can vary drastically for a number of reasons.
Any other form of water level sensing besides depending on the water level switch is just nonsense.
When the (variable) wash load size switch in the pressure module is satisfied, it would then activate the timer or relay to continue the cycle.
It's elementry, simple.

 

[DADoES]

2) The rinse agitation period was only two minutes in a single increment on most belt drives. Incremental advance timers leave off from where they were manually advanced time wise. So if the machine was in spin and 110 seconds into an increment, if the user pulled the knob in and set it to the final two minute rinse increment the machine would only hold the new increment for 10 seconds upon the pressure switch being satisfied- advancing into drain only after 10 seconds. The two minute fill increment acts as a catch-up buffer and assures that no matter what the rinse will be at least two minutes long.

The LJA32 timer had increments of 75 seconds (1 min 15 seconds), not one minute or two minutes. Rinse agitation was one increment on both Normal and Gentle.

 

[Chetlaham]

The LJA32 timer had increments of 75 seconds (1 min 15 seconds), not one minute or two minutes. Rinse agitation was one increment on both Normal and Gentle.

Ah, thank you for clarifying this!

75 seconds of agitation is not enough in my book, they should've included more agitation increments. But the single increment might explain the prior lead in period.

BTW, 75 second increment timers are some of my favorites. Here is one cycle I drew up a while back with 75 second steps, 7.5 degrees, 48 total steps:




The fill time allotment before the start of agitation is 6 minutes 15 seconds, which should cover a typical 40/60 mixing valve set to a hot fill IMO. The two extra increments before the start wash detent are to assure the user does not put the machine into a pre-treat (pre-wash) agitate. The extra increment and lead in increment before the pre-wash & soak detent are two fold: 1) to assure positive engagement of the timer motor and fill contacts. 2) It is both more accurate and easier on the wrists and psyche to move the timer out of off by 15+ degrees than to make sure a thin line between off and start fill is met. I've always hated when a cycle's start point and off decal tailgate each other. Picture a clock. If 12 o'clock is the off position, I'd like about 1 o'clock to be the start position.

 

[Chetlaham]

Logically, the fill time is determined by the home's water pressure, which can vary drastically for a number of reasons.
Any other form of water level sensing besides depending on the water level switch is just nonsense.
When the (variable) wash load size switch in the pressure module is satisfied, it would then activate the timer or relay to continue the cycle.
It's elementry, simple.

Well, I do agree with you as a whole. However, it is and it isn't nonsense in practice. Some of the best washers ever created like the Frigidaire Unimatic, Norge, Speed Queen, ABC, Blackstone, ect were timed fill and they did it well.

However in any case I do feel that at minimum there should be some type of overflow switch or over fill switch regardless of the tub being perforated or solid.

 

[phillymatt53]

Well, I do agree with you as a whole. However, it is and it isn't nonsense in practice. Some of the best washers ever created like the Frigidaire Unimatic, Norge, Speed Queen, ABC, Blackstone, ect were timed fill and they did it well.

However in any case I do feel that at minimum there should be some type of overflow switch or over fill switch regardless of the tub being perforated or solid.

That "timed fill" stuff to me is crazy design work.
Just because "in the testing lab" it might work, but as I said before, not everyone has the same water pressure or flow into their homes, and it varies.
Suppose a water main has issues, and lowers the pressure to homes...
Suppose several neighbors are filling their outdoor swimming pools...
Suppose in the mornings, many people are taking a shower before going to work...
The machine doesn't have a brain to figure those curcumstances out, how could it?
The traditional old school water level switch is my preference.

 

[DADoES]

Some early and budget WP (and KM) models with one fill level had a designated fill range on the timer. The user could get a shorter wash with less than a full fill by manually advancing the timer past the fill range when the desired level was reached, largely for purpose of saving hot water on smaller loads. There still was a float (very early models) or a pressure switch that otherwise controlled the fill for a regular/full cycle. The deep rinse was always a full fill.

 

[qsd-dan]

Some of the best washers ever created like the Frigidaire Unimatic, Norge, Speed Queen, ABC, Blackstone, ect were timed fill and they did it well.

These were all solid tub machines that also overflow rinsed. Timed fill, for the most part, equals one fill level and that's a full tub only.

The only washer I had with a timed fill was a 1963 Frigidaire WCI-63 washer. That damn time fill drove me bonkers. It took many fill attempts of playing with both hot and cold water spigots so it wouldn't unnecessarily overfill and waste water while filling. When that was sorted out, using water anywhere in the house while it was filling would cause the machine to under-fill.

Give me metered fills or give me death!

Give me a perforated tub for dirt/sand to escape the inner tub or give me death!

Give me a an effective lint/hair filter or give me death.

Give me a lengthy spray rinse (with a warm water option) or give me death!

 

[kenmoreguy64]

To add to add to what Glenn said about the 1962 WP, to the best of my knowledge, all belt drives, at least from the early 60s to 1986/87, had the single increment rinse fill. I say from the early 60s because I do not have enough experience with machines prior to that to make a statement like this about them.

As to the time per increment, most common KM timers of the 70s and 80s used 2-minute increments, with the exception of two or more two-cycle timers used in low-end Kenmores. These had one minute increments.

Timers involved here include the 373933 / 373997 / 381860. These were four cycle timers with pre-wash, no pre-soak. This is likely the most widely used washer timer ever, as it was used in production for more than 10 years (1975-1986) in Kenmore’s highest volume sellers. Interesting note that this timer does NOT have a dry agitate in Normal. No idea why.

Another is the 376008 / 376011 / 378133. This is a runner up for most used, also produced in many common models for approx 9 years. This timer includes pre-soak.

Another is the 660693. I do not know the earlier version part numbers, but this is the timer used in the ‘76 Lady K and other high-end models that had second rinses. The last models to use this were the 1983 and 1985 Lady K. All these above had two minute increments.

The one minute increment timers used in single or two cycle models were the 376124 and 381992. When I first used one I noted how odd it was to hear the click advances so frequently.

I have read in WP literature about timers with increments of something in between 1 and 2 minutes, but I do not know of any models by the later half of the 70s that were still using them.

Sorry for all the trivia!

Gordon

 

[DADoES]

A page from a user manual for what should be the LJA series that someone shared years ago. It details the procedure for a lower fill level on models that don't have a water level selector.

Also a photo of an LJA520 to which the procedure would apply. FILL on Normal is obscured by the timer pointer but the range of 14 mins to 6 mins indicated by the arc beneath the cycle legend is clear. 4 to 2 mins on Gentle. I suppose a longer wash could be had by repeatedly resetting the timer.

LJA320 had a console like the first example on the manual page. Same timer as the photo except the FILL range covered the entire wash period being that it has a level selector (Hi, Med, Lo).

The rinse section for Normal appears long enough for two agitation increments, but I recall there was only one (which I thought was too short so sometimes would repeat it) .... two drain increments after wash, three spin? (one without sprays, two with two sprays each, rinse fill, agitate, two increments of drain). Gentle was two drain, two spin both with sprays?, rinse fill. agitate, two drain.