IGNIS: to break... or not to break?!

[vivalalavatrice]

Hi all...I started this new post of my Ignis restoration stepwork because now the problem is with the capacitor

This machine I knew has got two capacitors, and the broken one is for the wash speed. I feel right to assume this because the motor goes perfeclty well into spinning without any problem...but nothin happens during the wash...apart from hearing the washing machine "saying" mmmmmm, then pauses and then...mmmmmm and then pauses again and so on...
By this way I remeber you than here every washing machine (FL as well as TL like mine) wash with reverse action son turn bothside.

I knew where the two capacitors are placed that's in a cilindric box along the backside under the control panel tower... but know the question is

I'm not strong enough to disassabmly this box to reach the capacitors...but I need to reach them to read their capacity(here we use uF = micro Farhad).
One is woth but the other it isn't so...shall I break the box and don't matter of it or let the box stay there and re-wire two new capacitors?!

Besides new capacitors will be very less big than old ones and round there into the cabinet of the WM there will be space enough to place them wit the provided screw in some cabinet already existing hole.

THANKS ALL!
Bye
Diomede

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Diomede, you know I had a problem once with a washer that the motor would turn clockwise (for agitation) but would not reverse (for spin). If the motor turns in one direction but not the other then the motor is working fine, otherwise it wouldn't work in either direction. So yes it could be the capacitor, but with the machine I had the problem with, the timer was actually at fault. Can you verify if the timer is properly energizing the motor for that particular direction?

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Can you verify if the timer

...yes Robert I did it but I wonder because I hear ZZZZZ and then pauses and then ZZZZ again...the pause is too short to be the time for the reversing...EACH ZZZZ I hear is the timer giving energy to the motor in both direction but the capacitor is not able to make the motor work.

Now "a malincuore" = very sadly :-(... I have someway to "break" that box...I wish to minimaze the damn...is the worth thing...

Apart from the drum lids blocking system (wich I've already found how to fix )...the machine is greatly working! It would make me very unpleasent to leave this challenge, but I MUST solve this problem with the motor...

Thanks Robert...pictures and video will coming soon! Promise
Diomede

PS: have a look at this link

http://www.automaticwasher.org/TD/THREADS/VINTAGE/13915x10.htm

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Without the top

I took away the top... The capacitors are rearside you see they're those trhee cilinder in aluminium...

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Here you are them!

This one here below literaly exploded!

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi Diomede, ok so now we can see there are three can capacitors.

Two questions:
1. Do you know exactly what each one is for and which one does what?

2. I don't understand why you mean by you have to "brake the box" to remove them, the look like they would slip right out.

Now a word of CAUTION:

Those Capacitors and huge and probably store a very high microfarad charge. Before you touch any of them BE SURE TO DISCHARGE THEM!!!!!!! It doesn't matter if the machine is plugged in or not, these carry a very high charge.

To discharge them take an INSULATED screwdriver or other long wire and short one of the terminals to the other. If this doesn't make sense please ask me again and I will take a picture of what I mean. We don't want you getting bit by a capacitor.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

OMG!!! :-OOO

Robert...you make me frightened saying that...I absolutely didn't know nothing of such dangerous about the capacitors...

Honestly I have already removed the broken one(think that I found this box full of oil!!!)

To be the most safe as possible thus I'll bring the entire box to a repair center... The technicians more expert than me, will do a better job! So I let them decided if it will be enough to replace a new one in place of the brokeno one or it'll be better to substitute all trhee!

Exploding one capacitors (this below in the pic) the oil fill the box...so I took away two screws from back side which held the rectangular cover you see on left attached to the cabinet...but I cannot make the entire box lightly slide to extract them (it' got the three hooks as you see)

 

[vivalalavatrice]

OMG!!! :-OOO

Robert...you make me frightened saying that...I absolutely didn't know nothing of such dangerous about the capacitors...

Honestly I have already removed the broken one(think that I found this box full of oil!!!)

To be the most safe as possible thus I'll bring the entire box to a repair center... The technicians more expert than me, will do a better job! So I let them decided if it will be enough to replace a new one in place of the brokeno one or it'll be better to substitute all trhee!

Exploding one capacitors (this below in the pic) the oil fill the box...so I took away two screws from back side which held the rectangular cover you see on left attached to the cabinet...but I cannot make the entire box lightly slide to extract them (it' got the three hooks as you see)

 

[aquarius1984]

not pushing Roberts theory out the way but

this motor does have carbon brushes? I only ask because if one brush gets dislodged from the armature it will only turn the drum one way. I know this because a few weeks ago the Hotpoint WM 12 would not spin clockwise. Angela called me so I popped down and found the RHS brush was halfway out. Dont know how this happened after 9months but I gave it a sharp tap in where it now gives usual service without problem. I think maybe an exceedingly unbalanced load swung the motor and the brush popped out. Rob

 

[aquarius1984]

sorry didnt really read the thread in detail, ignore my post above if you solved the problem

 

[vivalalavatrice]

brush...mhm

I don't think they're the brushes... The motor works well (when the machine arrive home I tried it once when the old draining pump was still mounted) until a few days ago...I was busy with fixing the leaks and...I don't know why but when finally I get to hook up the machine, and let it fill, the motor worked well for a few second until it blocked the washing action...but as the timer arrived to the spin cycle it started again to work fine!

 

[Unimatic1140]

I absolutely didn't know nothing of such dangerous about the capacitors...

I didn't mean to scare you Diomede, it's not dangerous at all. Just take a screwdriver with a plastic handle and touch both ends of each capacitor at the same time like in this picture below. Once you do that, each capacitor is completely safe.

 

[selectomatic]

I'll add another warning.

The oil used in some capacitors, especially older ones, is not at all healthy. Clean up all of the oil from the exploded capacitor, and don't open up any of the others.

Wash everything down carefully, then wash your tools and hands after handling the capacitors.

It's not likely to be a problem, but it's best to be safe.

Good luck on your project!

-kevin

 

[tolivac]

Another note on capacitors-if the capacitors are OIL filled-be sure to keep them SHORTED when in or out of the circuit.Oil caps have a lower dielectric leakage than electrolytic capacitors-the one shown in Unimatics picture is a typical electrolytic motor start cap.Oil eielectric caps can regenerate a charge when discharged and left unshorted.the oil caps in the transmitters I use at the transmitter plant can KILL if left unshorted.In some AC circuits-lamp ballasts and AC power factor correction-these caps must have internal bleeders as required by the NEC. in older caps the oil is PCB-Its common in the caps I use where I work.If you see oil caps marked "Pyronal,"Askaral"this is PCB deielectric.Oh yes-just remember to remove the short across the oil caps before energizing the equipment they are installed in!In my case-A grounding hook is left across them.Grounding hook holders in the tranmsitters are interlocked so the HV supplies can't be energized unless the hook is placed back in its holder-too bad appliances don't have this.A caution on using screwdrivers to discharge caps-if the cap is VERY high capacitance value-it will burn the screwdriver and possibly damage the cap-maybe even cause it to rupture.this is not a worry with those in appliances.Could be the case with caps in high powered solid state "hi-fi" amps.Use clip leads with a resistor.Say about 10ohms 10 watt power resistor.

 

[gizmo]

Hi Diomede

Those capacitors are likely to be very common. Most older Italian front load washers will have similar capacitors. I don't think you will have any trouble finding replacements, if you do I might have one I could post to you.

Your machine will most likely use two capacitors for the motor - one for wash and one for spin. The third is probably not a capacitor, but a interference filter. (EMI filter).This arrangement is very common on Italian machines, including even new machines such as Indesit induction motor machines. The type of motor is, in a way, two motors in one. There are two circuits in the motor, one turns slowly for wash (14 or 16 poles winding), the other turns fast for spin (2 poles winding).
The values for the capacitor is likely to be written on the capacitor and also on the motor. If the capacitor has exploded so badly that you cannot read its values, don't worry as they are probably written on the motor as well. The motor and two capacitors are a matched set.

The critical values for each capacitor are volts and microfarads. You need to find a replacement with the same values. For example, the capacitor might be 380 volts 16 microfarads. the volts will be written "V" and the microfarads will be written "uF". So for my example the capacitor will have written or stamped on it, "380V 16uF". When you find the values you need, you can order a suitable capacitor from a spare parts supplier.

On the motor you should find a small metal plate with its details too. It will probably have the Manufacturer, Volts (V), rpm (Tr/min), poles (poli) and microfarads (uF) on it. It will probably be in Italian - easy for you, difficult for me! For example your motor, if it is what I think it is, will have on it something like:

Motori Italiani 220v

Poli 2 Tr/min 2800 Cap 10uF

Poli 16 Tr/min 360 Cap 16uF

The 2 poli is the spin, the 14 or 16 poli is the wash. As only the wash is faulty, you want the capacitor value
for the 14 or 16 poli winding, the slow tr/min. My guess is, it will be between 10 and 20 uF and about 380 volts. Of course if the capacitor markings are still legible then you don't need to look at the motor.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Buona Fortuna.

Chris.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

Thanks...thus...

Robert, I thank you for the warning on how operate but saw the bad condition in how I found the box containing the three cans I'll bring everything to the repair center... so they'll do with more competence and experience than me...

I'll go to bring back all after it has been repaired...so I'll have ongly to mount the box where it was and relink the wiring...DONE! My washing machine should only be repair on the drum lids and it would be as new as before!

Grazie Chris! E' proprio come hai detto tu...it's justa like you have said!

The motor plate says:

2 Poli - 200 W - 2,5 A - 2800rpm - uF 20
18 Poli - 60 W - 1,2 A - 270rpm - uF 10

Either on each caps the writes are readable...and they're 10uF each one...the exploded one was for wash (18 poli) the other two are horizontal wiring (collegati in parallelo), to provide the spinning (2 poli)... just as the motor plate says in fact the washing machine was not able to wash but the motor perfectly goes in spinning!

GRAZIE,Ciao!
Diomede

PS: This image is referring to the original 60s advertisement of this machine...oh as you can see the drum lids open outside...so may machine is older than this :-D

 

[gizmo]

Ciao Diomede

Your machine has a 2 poli/18 poli motor. That is very advanced for such an old machine. I have not heard of an 18 pole motor made before about 1980.

You can work out from the speeds on the motor plate, 2800 rpm and 270 rpm that the spin speed is more than 10 times the wash speed. So if the pulley sizes are arranged so it washes at about 55 rpm, then the spin speed will be about 580 rpm. That is quite fast by 1960s standards. I think you have a very good machine.

Chris.

 

[vivalalavatrice]

That is quite fast by 1960s standards. I think you have a ve

Grazie Chris!

Yes...this machine was very innovative for its era...it was sold like "Gran Lusso" together with the other model called "Spaziale" that was a TLHA just like those you see sold today here in EU (specially in France!)...

I cannot understand indeed this situation...in the 60s those was the two first TLHA completetly automatic washing machines (Ignis was the first brand producing this kind of machine) and the GranLusso was the best seller...but "inspiegabilmente" (inexplainable!) now the TLHA we see are all like the less sold at that time...
Here we say "squadra che vince non si cambia"(team that win, don't chage the team!)... why if the best seller was that now thi machine is pratically extinted!?!

Anyway the strongness of the construction you will see by the two bearings which the drum are attached with to the outer tub...rear side where there's the pulley than front side...
The machine I thik with such bearing system with 4 spings and 2 shock-absorbers could reach quitely the speed of 500rpm and why not go over...

Here's the pic of the 2 model ad.