They could indeed learn a lot from vintage washers. Old washers were common sense and I think with some tweaking they would have gotten even better.
Improving Top Loader Washer Performance Via Intermediate Soaks
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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pierreandreply4
Well-known member
and in term of resource protection just imagine how much water would be save if the modern washers sud saver system as it drain the sudsy water in the wash used a 2 pump system one to save the water pump 1 and pump 2 gets rids of dirt and lint leaving the reusable hot water clean to be pump back in the washer taking for exemple the vintage washer 1972 inglis superb while keeping its classic and vintage dial and knobs for water level wash rinse temp i wonder what modern features for 2025 would add
chetlaham
I like that IDEA!
I like that IDEA!
If I say it, I'll get a whippin...
I'll say it! *LOL*
Very long story short there are only so many things that can be done to improve performance of top loading washing machines with central beaters.
There are very good reasons why commercial/industrial laundries went right to H-axis washers (even when driven by belts instead of motors) and after period of minor sorting out most of Europe totally embraced front loading washers for domestic use.
Maytag every early on had an H-axis washer (combined with wringer) where adverts had a housewife (likely middle class or above) beaming to her laundress about how beautiful results were by "Mary" without a sign of wear and tear.
Hurley Machine Company came out with their "Thor" H-axis washers back in late 1800's or early 1900's. https://archive.org/details/youyourlaundry00fred/mode/2up
Later it was Bendix that took up front loading washers in USA,Constructa was doing same in Germany.
Understand and respect personal choices that favourtop loading washers. Oneself however after first H-axis washer (a Malber all those years ago), have never looked back. That Malber, and our current line up of Miele, and two AEG h-axis washers do a full load of about 11lbs of wash using less water and chemicals and far less wear than top loaders one used for decades previous.
I'll say it! *LOL*
Very long story short there are only so many things that can be done to improve performance of top loading washing machines with central beaters.
There are very good reasons why commercial/industrial laundries went right to H-axis washers (even when driven by belts instead of motors) and after period of minor sorting out most of Europe totally embraced front loading washers for domestic use.
Maytag every early on had an H-axis washer (combined with wringer) where adverts had a housewife (likely middle class or above) beaming to her laundress about how beautiful results were by "Mary" without a sign of wear and tear.
Hurley Machine Company came out with their "Thor" H-axis washers back in late 1800's or early 1900's. https://archive.org/details/youyourlaundry00fred/mode/2up
Later it was Bendix that took up front loading washers in USA,Constructa was doing same in Germany.
Understand and respect personal choices that favourtop loading washers. Oneself however after first H-axis washer (a Malber all those years ago), have never looked back. That Malber, and our current line up of Miele, and two AEG h-axis washers do a full load of about 11lbs of wash using less water and chemicals and far less wear than top loaders one used for decades previous.
Pierre, you know what I'd do? I'd save the deep rinse water and then use that for the wash. Just feels more right. I also think spray rinsing would save water while improving rinse results in top load washers so much so I'm researching the topic extensively and thinking of various ways that it can be adapted to a top load washer cycle.
If everyone were like me a 2025 top load would have both catalyst and resource saver rinsing, an extra rinse knob, soak and pre-wash options, some form of water re-circulation, spin-drain, infinite water level, timed liquid bleach, dual action agitator, heavy duty porcelain on everything steal, EM controls, ATC, ect.
No electronics for me other than an over-ridable ATC board. Though there is a good chance said ATC might be via bi-metallic thermostats as in latter DDs.
If everyone were like me a 2025 top load would have both catalyst and resource saver rinsing, an extra rinse knob, soak and pre-wash options, some form of water re-circulation, spin-drain, infinite water level, timed liquid bleach, dual action agitator, heavy duty porcelain on everything steal, EM controls, ATC, ect.
No electronics for me other than an over-ridable ATC board. Though there is a good chance said ATC might be via bi-metallic thermostats as in latter DDs.
Launderess, I'd go with a front loader if it had simple EM controls, strong onboard heater, sump recirculation pump and hardware based balancing.
Top loads do have one major advantage: time. A top loader can complete a whole cycle in as little as 24 minutes.
Though I get where you are coming from, top loaders have their limitations in several regards.
Top loads do have one major advantage: time. A top loader can complete a whole cycle in as little as 24 minutes.
Though I get where you are coming from, top loaders have their limitations in several regards.
Reply number 16
Oh Chet, if you knew how the world worked, it would be dangerous, lol
That hot setting on the resource savers was only there in case the consumer needed a hot wash. It was a workaround you filled it on the pre-soak cycle and then moved it over to the main cycle. It was never intended to be the main soaking choice to soak things in hot water.
John L
Oh Chet, if you knew how the world worked, it would be dangerous, lol
That hot setting on the resource savers was only there in case the consumer needed a hot wash. It was a workaround you filled it on the pre-soak cycle and then moved it over to the main cycle. It was never intended to be the main soaking choice to soak things in hot water.
John L
Then why didn't they put it on the wash/rinse &spin temprature knob?
They put it on the soak/pre-wash knob.
It is funny, because had I drawn up this exact control panel before Whirlpool did your reply would be "Chet, absolutely nobody soaks in hot water. That is pretty obvious. Hot water is for washing only. This shows you've never done a single load of laundry before, lulz"
My guess is that Whirlpool thinks a hot pre-wash (and not a soak) is beneficial, when it is needed.
They put it on the soak/pre-wash knob.
It is funny, because had I drawn up this exact control panel before Whirlpool did your reply would be "Chet, absolutely nobody soaks in hot water. That is pretty obvious. Hot water is for washing only. This shows you've never done a single load of laundry before, lulz"
My guess is that Whirlpool thinks a hot pre-wash (and not a soak) is beneficial, when it is needed.
<blockquote>Then why didn't they put it on the wash/rinse &spin temprature knob?</blockquote> Perhaps for energy rating qualifications, which are based on the designated Normal cycle?
Standard laundry practice advises PRE-soaking and/or PRE-washing should be at cold, cool, or warm temperature to avoid setting-in temperature-sensitive stains. Some machine programming does break that rule, such as WP vintage models that have the Super Wash process, although Super Wash seems aimed moreso at heavy (DIRT) soil than stains (thus the pause for DIRT soil to settle for flushing via the partial drain).
I recall KM advised warm (or cold) for the separate Enzyme Soak cycle. I imagine programmed/pushbutton LK models with automatic advance had a warm soak. Can't say about 800 models with option of soak-to-wash, whether that option when selected overrides a hot wash temp choice into a warm soak, collectors with those machines can perhaps investigate the details.
This is yet another reason why I dislike energy regulations, they make everything more confusing and complicated. ATC hot (100*F) would make a lot more sense being reserved for the soak and prewash cycles but thanks to energy start its literally backwards. I like conventions that are which straight forward and decipherable at face value.
DaDoES, you have a point. I've read a lot of lid instructions and washer manuals that state soaking in hot can set certain stains. Whirlpool's super wash does most likely have dirt in mind vs stains, hence the short time and half tub drain.
I guess I need to come up with a new name for the idea that I have in mind.
I'm curious as well. Did these Kenmore default to warm or drain the water out?
DaDoES, you have a point. I've read a lot of lid instructions and washer manuals that state soaking in hot can set certain stains. Whirlpool's super wash does most likely have dirt in mind vs stains, hence the short time and half tub drain.
I guess I need to come up with a new name for the idea that I have in mind.
I'm curious as well. Did these Kenmore default to warm or drain the water out?
Reply #28
Chet if I select Hot/Cold or Hot/Warm while using the soak&Wash feature on the 1974 Kenmore 70 it will do the presoak and prewash in cooler water and then change over to Hot when it fills for the 14 minute wash.
Chet if I select Hot/Cold or Hot/Warm while using the soak&Wash feature on the 1974 Kenmore 70 it will do the presoak and prewash in cooler water and then change over to Hot when it fills for the 14 minute wash.
Neat! Is the wiring diagram still intact on the back access panel on your 1974 Kenmore 70?
If Whirlpool went through the trouble of configuring their machines to fill with warm water on pre-soak when set to hot/cold or hot/warm, then I definitely should not be soaking things in hot water.
I guess I will have to come up with a different name for my concept, or just abandon the idea in general and switch to something else.
If Whirlpool went through the trouble of configuring their machines to fill with warm water on pre-soak when set to hot/cold or hot/warm, then I definitely should not be soaking things in hot water.
I guess I will have to come up with a different name for my concept, or just abandon the idea in general and switch to something else.
Reply #30
Here tis
Here tis
Soak&Wash
That's another thing I find curious about this 74. Why it does a gentle agitation on the pre-soak and pre-wash and some other models have normal agitation ?
That's another thing I find curious about this 74. Why it does a gentle agitation on the pre-soak and pre-wash and some other models have normal agitation ?
Send those same pics to my email, the forum software shrinks and down sizes the images blurring the smaller letters and numbers.
Thank you none the less!
Anyway, I'm curious as well. Perhaps soak and pre-wash takes gentle garments into account as well?
Thank you none the less!
Anyway, I'm curious as well. Perhaps soak and pre-wash takes gentle garments into account as well?
Whoa!
Welp, you weren't kidding - your senses are not deceiving you. Rinse contact 12 is actually closed during the fill portions of the soak cycle. Meaning the cold valve will always be forced open when contact 10 (fill) or contact 13 (spray) closes regardless of where the temp switch is set or what other contacts are closed. Further, wash fill contact 17 is open during the soak fills so any hot/cold or warm/cold selections are defaulted to a cold fill. Whirlpool definitely (wittingly) wants either cold or warm water in the soak cycle and nothing else.
I never knew it was of such importance till now. Personal confession: I've soaked in both warm and hot water!
Welp, you weren't kidding - your senses are not deceiving you. Rinse contact 12 is actually closed during the fill portions of the soak cycle. Meaning the cold valve will always be forced open when contact 10 (fill) or contact 13 (spray) closes regardless of where the temp switch is set or what other contacts are closed. Further, wash fill contact 17 is open during the soak fills so any hot/cold or warm/cold selections are defaulted to a cold fill. Whirlpool definitely (wittingly) wants either cold or warm water in the soak cycle and nothing else.
I never knew it was of such importance till now. Personal confession: I've soaked in both warm and hot water!
hoover1100
Well-known member
I have long thought
This would be a great idea. I would say to match front loader profile wash performance, there would need to be a cool to warm pre-wash/soak to remove the majority of the dirt and to prevent the setting of biological stains, then a drain and spin, followed by a hot as possible main wash incorporating agitation and soak periods. I think it would need to be a bit longer than stated here though, ideally at least an hour in the main wash solution to really get the best from the detergent.
Matt
This would be a great idea. I would say to match front loader profile wash performance, there would need to be a cool to warm pre-wash/soak to remove the majority of the dirt and to prevent the setting of biological stains, then a drain and spin, followed by a hot as possible main wash incorporating agitation and soak periods. I think it would need to be a bit longer than stated here though, ideally at least an hour in the main wash solution to really get the best from the detergent.
Matt
Soaks
Soaks make a huge difference, though mostly on soils that respond to enzymes. Our Kenmore has AutoSoak that I use on most loads. Cleaning performance even in lower temps has always been stellar. The GE TL we had at our rental had options for 15, 30, 60, or 120 min soaks. That machine did not clean well, so soaks helped dramatically though never to FL level of performance. Two hour soaks were often used in that house. In top loads it is required for mechanical action to stop and resume by using motor, where as FL machines stop to reverse direction anyways. Timer TL machines may be a little more complex and confuse people since audible action stopped for a longer period of time. Newer machines are quieter, and tend to stop for multiple reasons during cycle, so is easier to get away with. Not to mention longer wash times. Some Maytag HE TL machines I have used have Deep Clean option which alternates 1 min soak, 1 min wash for 20 minutes, but only adds 10 minutes because the soaks are added to existing wash time. Which admittedly seems like a great option. FL tumble patters can be changed to increase “soak” times by extending duration between tumbles on higher soil settings, but likely will not confuse owners since the machines are quiet and tumbling stops frequently anyways. With restrictions on TL machines, I do see where soaks will likely be added and cycles will be extended as hot water consumption is further reduced. As previously discussed, Whirlpool Catalyst pretreat was incredible, but the Cabrio/Oasis/Bravos machines did a similar pretreat phase that was quite good as well, but was longer. Some did view this as “sensing” and didn’t like it.
Soaks make a huge difference, though mostly on soils that respond to enzymes. Our Kenmore has AutoSoak that I use on most loads. Cleaning performance even in lower temps has always been stellar. The GE TL we had at our rental had options for 15, 30, 60, or 120 min soaks. That machine did not clean well, so soaks helped dramatically though never to FL level of performance. Two hour soaks were often used in that house. In top loads it is required for mechanical action to stop and resume by using motor, where as FL machines stop to reverse direction anyways. Timer TL machines may be a little more complex and confuse people since audible action stopped for a longer period of time. Newer machines are quieter, and tend to stop for multiple reasons during cycle, so is easier to get away with. Not to mention longer wash times. Some Maytag HE TL machines I have used have Deep Clean option which alternates 1 min soak, 1 min wash for 20 minutes, but only adds 10 minutes because the soaks are added to existing wash time. Which admittedly seems like a great option. FL tumble patters can be changed to increase “soak” times by extending duration between tumbles on higher soil settings, but likely will not confuse owners since the machines are quiet and tumbling stops frequently anyways. With restrictions on TL machines, I do see where soaks will likely be added and cycles will be extended as hot water consumption is further reduced. As previously discussed, Whirlpool Catalyst pretreat was incredible, but the Cabrio/Oasis/Bravos machines did a similar pretreat phase that was quite good as well, but was longer. Some did view this as “sensing” and didn’t like it.
Wow. So much evidence that many of you on here do not pay attention to washers built after 1995 or something.
Practically every washer for sale today, above budget model, has various soak cycles and schemes already.
This is not earth shattering.
Practically every washer for sale today, above budget model, has various soak cycles and schemes already.
This is not earth shattering.
Why doesn't somebody do a side by side comparison load of clothes in a top loader and one in the front loader with the parameters being set the same or as close to possible and let's see real world use..... Let's end this pointless debate once and for all about which actually does clean better.... I want to see it with my own eyes. The exact same load what the exact same stains and see which one actually does do better.
