Is it all Nostalgia? Old vs New

[robm]

Hi all you wonderful people! I know similar threads have been created but haven’t seen one for a while, certainly not for European machines.

I’ve been wondering if new machines really are worse than the rose tinted machines from yester-year? Don’t get me wrong I love vintage machines but really to the average person were they much better? Newer machines are quieter, more stable, have bigger drums and faster spins. Here is run down of the years I remember in washing history –

70s – Good solid machines, which tended to last a long time, great funky designs, however, brush motors were very noisy, spins were slower, not economical and generally expensive to purchase.

80s – Spins getting faster, designs more steamlined for modern kitchens. Machines getting cheaper to buy, however, so were the constructions and without balance sensors many 80s machines vibrated. Programs sometimes too short with little choice of extending them.

90s – More economical, but with the new European labels, water levels far too low, resulting in extremely long programs. Most induction motors dropped in favour for noisy brush motors. Constructions also getting cheaper in some cases, only spin at top speed for seconds.

00s – Water levels rise, spins longer and new quieter inverter motors. Program times gradually reduce and capacity increases. However, oversensitive balance sensors extend programming and compensate for sometimes cheap construction. How long will they last? Loss of old fashioned timer dials.

Please note the above is generic and different makes perform differently. So what do you think, old versus new?

Rob

 

[mattywashboy]

from a personal perspective

Its all a game of pro versus con really.
Yes, older machines used more water and had a 'comfortable' cycle times. They were more convenient than twin tub washers and got clothes clean, plus they were sturdy and lasted a long time. Then all of a sudden these new machines are not lasting as long, take forever to wash which means people choose the quick wash cycles more often, resulting in bad cleaning. BUT they use less water and look nicer in ur nice modern kitchen and are quieter. Not a lot of people have the patience or time to spend waiting nearly two hours for a wash load to finish, i know from personal experience. Its the same with top loaders versus front loaders, top loaders are fast washers and clean well, but are big, use a LOT of water and limits ur chance of having that bench in ur laundry.
Its all personal preference i think, personally i prefer the OLD style washers, but thats just me
Matt

 

[hotpoint95622]

Hotpoint 95622

Defiantly old, the Hotpoint’s from the 70’s and 80’s are the best machines you can get. Slower spin speed less stress on bearings and less ironing. I have the 95622 which washes better and faster then my more up to date bendix.

And the 95622 is a low energy machine washing at 10C less than the stated temperature of the program, unless you select super wash.

I prefer old timers as if it’s taking to long you can stop and advance the program, new electric programs you can not do this!!

Lee

 

[newwave1]

New Or Old?!

Well for me older machines are the best. no nonsense programmes, good water levels and rinsing. good spinning at low speeds too and reliablity.

This being said, i like modern electronics, bigger drums, fast spins and time remaining indictators & long fast interm spins!

Put these together a current machine would be bloody brilliant which manufacturers are more than capable of doin. By rights the modern machine should be flawless. However no one would sell unless people were replacing old or starting out in new homes!

Darren

 

[hoovermatic]

give me the one on the left anytime, the same one my Mum had in the mid 1980's, noisy yes, but a very reliable and fantastic performer

 

[robm]

Hi all

Well the concensus definately leans towards the more old fashioned machines. People seem to like the no nonsense programs and I definately miss the old fashioned dials that I can move on but I do have a few questions -

Lee (and every old Hottie fan) my mother had a 9530, which I loved as a child but it only had very short washes 10-12 mins. I remember some things just did not get clean. It also often jumped out a few inches where it vibrated so much (self levelling wheels). Alas it only lasted 2 years.

Hoovermatic - I love the look of my old Hoover but I cannot say it was well made. It has a twisted drum, vibrates terribly, with cheap springs at the top and only washes for minutes and with low agitation.

Now please do not get me wrong, I love all washers and respect all your views and opinions but just want to ask if they really were any better? I've had machines from all different eras and I just wonder? If this was now 1988 what would we say? Would we be going on about the 60s and 70s?

Now here is a controversial pic. My mum's old 9530 and the new Aqualtis. Please note, I do not think Indesit is better than old Hotpoint (before you all kill me LOL)!

Rob

 

[electron800]

You can't really say the Hoover isn't well made

Since it's still going 22 years after it was manufactured. I think these hoovers were the best made british washers. They still had metal outer tubs until at least 1992/93 (When mine was produced) I like older Hotpoints but the cycles were too short to produce decent results and they were not as reliable as the Hoovers. From memory they were also pretty rough on the clothes. In their defense they are easily repairable and parts were cheap, which I think is why some of them have been kept going for so long, not because they were well built. They ate through brushes, were prone to bearing failures and have that awful brittle facia with no support behind it.

Give me an Electron A3260 over any modern machine any day, although people do look at older machines through rose coloured glasses. In general they were better made than today's machines but there are still plenty of very good machines available now at a resonable price, like Zanussis and Bosch.

 

[matchboxpaul]

Me Rob....

I am a classic machine man - no real surprise there - for all the reasons satated before.

However there is the fact that the vintage machines are ones I/we grew up with.

I am sure that future generations will, in 20/30 years time, be craving after the ultra rare Hotpoint WF series, Hoover Vision and current day Servis'.

They will also be cursing us for disposing of them, over the next few years - just like we rue the day our folks, freinds and neighbours disposed of Hoover keymatics, matchboxes, A31XX's, electrons, logics, Hotpoint liberators, square door creda's and bendix's, chrome trimmed philips, slimline servis.........................................................................................................

The list is endless.

cheers
paul

 

[electron1100]

old v new

Not much to add to this thread, i prefer old machines generally, they where not perfection, but where honest designs, designed by engineers who had years of experience, the result was the machines got on and did the job.

Yes my Bosch is a nice well thought out machine, but all the Hoover machines i have wash just as well if not better in a fraction of the time and have a sort of charisma that modern machines dont have

Regarding noise, i am an audio engineer by trade and i have used sound damping in all machines and this without doubt reduces the overall noise levels, one easy thing to do is cut a piece of carpet so it slides under the machine in situ, this helps cut noise dramatically

And i agree with the comments about mechanical programmers, they put you more in touch with the machine than computers do.
I like technology i can understand and work with

I remember a work colleagues wife moaning like hell when her 15 year old 1000 rpm spin Servis finally died and was replaced with Hoover Nextra 1600, she coudnt beleive how long it took to her daily wash (over 2 hours), she also claimed the washing wasnt as dry as her old Servis after it had spun

If I had my choice i would have a Hoover electron in my kitchen over the Bosch or any other modern automatic

Gary

ROB Hoovermatic

Your not giving this machine much of a chance really by not changing the suspension, the top springs only control back and forth movement so dont need to be any more than they are, the bottom suspension is the part that does the main work and once the suspension rubbers and guides have gone it hasnt got any chance of working properly
If it only washes for a few minutes it could be because one of the thermostats has gone (presuming you are selecting a normal wash), that electron 1100 i got had that problem on the 40o non fast coloureds wash it sped through the programme

 

[launderess]

Think part of the long cycles for vintage front loaders, was the detergents generally available. Enzymes, activated oxygen bleaches and the rest of the chemcicals that make up TOL and even MOL washing powders have taken much of the wind out of long wash times.

One reason love my vintage Miele with a mechanical timer, is that one can easily shorten the wash cycle. Find ten minutes or so after the water has reached proper temperature is more than fine when using Persil or such.

 

[robm]

Hi guys and thanks for all your opinions.

Hoovermatic - Well you are certainly correct, my Electron is 22 years old and still working. In fact as it is cosmetically in such mint condition I tend to forget how old it is! So perhaps my comments are rather harsh. Gary - you are right I need to change the suspension, I've been putting it off because I'm frightened of making a hash of it. I'm quite practical but am not trained.

Paul your comments interest me because I think you are absolutely right, the children of today will be collecting the machines of today - bless em!

My personal view is that the 90s was the worst time for manufacture for me. When I bought my first flat in 1996 I was hard pushed to find a machine I liked!

Water levels were really low
Zanussi stopped using induction motors
Build quality seemed lower
As Lauderess said prg times were long

Of course to some they love the 90s and I respect that but for me I prefer the machines now. The water levels are higher again, program times are coming down and machines are getting quieter.

So for me the ideal periods are -

Pre 1985 and some (only some) of the machines now.

 

[panthera]

No question,

The older machines (pre-1985 or so) were enormously better than the trash foisted on us in the 1990's.
I think the decline in quality is the result of several factors.
First, the young-dynamic-managers took over. They didn't and don't care a bit about the workers, consumers or shareholders. They'll cut corners anywhere they can, all that matters is increasing their personal advantage, even (especially) at the cost of the company. Bauknecht's new owners, Whirlpool, are the clearest example of this 90's phenomenon.
Second, electronics made it possible to offer a lot of features on cheaply built machines. The high-speed spin on my 1979 Miele was only possible because of an enormously complicated mechanical/electronic logic. Very expensive.
Nearly the same results can be achieved by a simple OP circuit comparing power drawn to speed out...so higher spin speeds became possible, at least on the drawing board, for machines with far less stable designs and components.
Third, prices came down radically throughout the late '80s, continuing in real terms to today. My first Miele dishwasher sold for over 4,000DM, was three-phase and ran at 6200Watts (the real three-phase, so let's not go there again). The heat-sink for the electronics was a solid block of copper with fins which were polished...
The Miele which replaced it (not 'cause it failed, it fell down the stairs) in 2001 cost 2,370DM. It is solid and well made, but the drain pump from the 1979 model is bigger than the impeller pump in this one...and it takes a good 30 minutes longer to wash. But you have to ask, was all that quality really worth the extra 2,000DM? Ask me in another 10 years.
Last - and perhaps most important, the concept of 'durable' goods is extinct. Regardless of the size and nuisance to replace or repair, people tend to see a washer or dishwasher or even a refrigerator as something which just doesn't last very long.
My partner and I are gradually moving back in time. When something new fails, we replace it with an overhauled appliance from the pre-1985 era, preferably pre-1960's. The difference in quality is palpable.

 

[newwave1]

Chippin in again on this one! I myself am currently wanting to go back in time. My current machine gives me the blues, i would like to swap it for a pre WMA hotpoint. So a WM72 style machine or WM model.

Like i've said the technology and features avaliable today should make for a good machine. However not all of them do this. For example; once my current hotpoint decides its going to spin you can hear the cabinet making little tappy noises as it bows under pressure of the vibration. It sounds like a tin can being dropped down the stairs!!!

Even though my older hotpoints may have jumped out a foot with towels in but they managed fine. My WM43 that i replaced with the WT960 only ever did that once in the entire time i owned it. I miss it dearly now.

Once we gave our 9534 to my brother when i was growing up we made it through 6 machines!!! And then finally came the day i could collect my own machines!

My first machine was my Hoover logic A3632 which gave me 4 trouble free years service up until early on in the year when it went faulty at 20 years old!

My servis quartz 6020 happily rumbles along at 24ish years old though i've given it a looong break since i last used it.

My zanussis just get on with the job time and time again! fast, clean WELL RINSED clothes. Ample spinning at lower speeds. In fact it was mr lavamat_jon himself who said my logic 1300 span equally to his AEG 1600!!!!!!!!!!!!

Though there are some new machines that are good solid and have good cleaning and water levels.

Though i begruge having to spend £500+ for a long serving machine which you could have got spending £300 back in time.

Darren

 

[robm]

Hi Keven

Thanks for your comments. I think what really affected machines in the early 90s was a) the recession and b) the new rated labels.

The recession affected the build and cost. Machines were not cheap in the mid 90s and my Seeboard book confirms this! Also the build quality was lower and without OOB sensors machines could be noisy.

The labeling affected the water levels and wash time. Everyone wanted an A so they just made the water levels very low and the wash times went on forever.

Hi Darren - Hope you got my message and thanks for your comments.

I wonder what the 10s will bring???

Below is a pic of mid 90s washers, gone are the chrome and square doors and induction motors are a thing of the past with these makes.

 

[superelectronic]

Beware the rose tint...but celebrate quality

Whilst I have yet to have a truly modern machine as my regular washday companion, I have to say that my recent trip to a couple of electrical superstores (accompanied, as it happens, by Mr Rob M himself...whose collection of old and new I have also had the honour of seeing in the metal, from which I can draw inspiration here) left me somewhat uninspired. It’s true that the machines of today are fully featured as standard – amen to that – but the quality just doesn’t appear to be there, and when you keep hearing about the unreliability and general poor quality of today’s output it’s very off putting. Of course, it’s very easy to look back with the rose tinted specs and cite examples of machines that just kept working without fuss but there were plenty of bad eggs out there too – e.g. my mother’s Candy from 1985 that was beyond economic repair within 18 months of normal family use (one load a day).

One thing I do wonder is if many people work their machines harder than used to be the case: whereas for my family of four a load a day was normal, my older sister claims to be washing three a day for her family of four and this doesn’t seem to be unusual these days; certainly there has been suggestion of this via a number of sources...so have we become somewhat more extravagant in our need for clean clothes and, consequently, are our newer machines wearing out sooner simply because we use them more often? In terms of cycles are new machines giving just as many as the old ones?

A further consideration mooted before is the relative cost of machines: this has come down so much in the last ten years that’s it’s no wonder people don’t keep their equipment for long. What’s the point of a repair that costs over half of the purchase price on a cheap machine when you can stroll out and pick up a shiny new unit for not a lot more? And one has to bear in mind that whereas before it not only made economic sense to repair, there was probably someone at home who could spend their day waiting around for the repairman to turn up. In these busy times when more families are at work all day – or even if you happen to live by yourself – who wants to take annual leave to wait in all day for the sake of an appliance when you can have a new one delivered at a more convenient point? So when we look back at the longevity of older machines we have to consider the fact that they were probably subject to repairs in a way that people now would find less worthwhile time- and money-wise.

I’m not happy that we don’t seem to have the option of quality as standard in perhaps the way we did over a decade ago – makes that once could be trusted to give relatively steady service seem to have sunk beyond the point of mediocrity, and quality is the preserve of maybe only one or two brands. In many ways I’d merrily swap the mind-numbing and irritating washer I put up with at the moment for just about anything but I do wonder if I’d live to regret it when I find that it won’t spin the clothes or the drum eats itself or some such basic engineering error. I think I’d probably like something fully featured (or at least with flexible programming – I’m talking mechanical programmer with variable temperature dial here in the style perhaps of Rob M’s AEG Lavamat 804 or maybe the Bosch WFB I had at another house) from a few years ago in my heart of hearts. Some of these new machines, snazzy as they may be, just seem to be more complex than really is necessary.

That’s my take on the matter anyway!

Al

 

[newwave1]

hmmm, I think some of the models in that pic were brilliant, i quite obviously loved the newwave, though mine is currently up for sale, i loved those zanussi's and those hotpoints! Though agreed build quality and Energy label didnt help matters at all.

Darren

 

[launderess]

More Loads Per Day

By many reports are due to the vast number of domestic textiles, each of a different nature that now make up laundry.

A thing such as men's cotton dress shirts which were formerly mostly white or other light solid colours, now come in all manner of fabrics and hues of the rainbow. Add to this various finishes such as "no-iron", which require different laundering programs from say a white cotton or linen shirt.

Bed and bath linen as well has changed from formerly all white, made of pure cotton, linen , or blends of the two, to colours and polyester/blends.

Then there is the various sport kits that require their own laundering programs as well. Honestly, one would think we are living in Edwardian or Victorian times with all manner and such of special laundry.

Really drives one nuts at times having just say one or two of a thing, to run a separate load in the Miele,because they cannot go with the rest due to different laundering instructions. Often will drag out the lessiveuse or the Hoover twin tub just to get on with things.

 

[stainfighter]

...Bosch is a nice well thought out machine

fwiw at our nearby Lowes they had a row of Bosch returns - all stickered to say 'repaired' with several clearly abused. They made a half-a_ _ repair on the door to one, still didn't look right. So many of today's consumers can't be bothered to take time to READ FIRST how to use something THEN use it imho - a shame