Is it never HOT enough?

[chachp]

White Whites

I replaced my TL Maytag with a FL Bosch about 3 years ago. At that point I stopped using bleach in my whites and instead began using Oxiclean and Persil. My whites were dingy and always felt as if they had some kind of residue or something. Anyway, the first few times I did my whites in the Bosch I started with a two hour soak in Oxiclean followed by a cold wash that gradually heated to 161 degrees. I no longer need the soak cycle. My whites are pure white and soft. The other thing I've noticed is that they seem to last much longer now and I think it's because I'm not using the chlorine bleach anymore.

I am a believer in a high temp wash replacing chlorine bleach.

 

[lavamat_daniele]

Jon: "I was reading off the Ariel/Persil packets today and found out that they still use phosphates..."

Are you sure?
Wasn't there Phosphonates?
Last packets of Ariel that I got from UK carried zeolite instead of phosphates and phosphonates in little quantity.
Persil was still using phosphates instead and no zeolite.

Daniele

 

[MrX]

Phosphates?

I don't think you'll find phosphates in any european laundry detergents anymore. There are various environmental regulations and fairly tight control of phosphates.

Zeolite and other alternatives have replaced them completely.

If you're in an extremely hard water area you can add a water softener to the wash e.g. Calgon.

Luckly, the water here is really soft due to the granite rock in the area.

Some parts of the south of england have exceptionally hard water

 

[Designgeek]

Bedbugs: Eww! I think I'd puke if I ever saw one!

Mattresses from second-hand and thrift stores: I'm surprised that's even legal!

And from the street! EEK! You'd think it's obvious that a mattress that sat out overnight would immediately get moldy from the dew. How people can sleep on something they just got from the street is beyond me!

The cause of that has got to be city policies that don't allow immediate disposal of mattresses in the weekly household trash collection. I've seen enough mattresses on the street that I think I'm going to write to my city council member about this. The sanitation department should be empowered to pick those things up immediately wherever they are seen, regardless of anything else. God!, talk about a huge health hazard!

Especially since people can pick up bugs visiting others who have them. Yow! Lucky me having a limited social life, oh the glorious diseases and disease vectors I never get to see....!.

Also, mattresses that sit around on the street become a great nesting-place for mice, rats, and God knows what else, all of which carry fleas, which in turn carry bubonic plague. Yeah, definitely a need to get cities to change their trash collection practices to deal with mattresses, or sooner or later we are going to regret it bigtime.

Re. bleach & dioxin: I've heard that chlorine breaks down into chloramines, which are somewhat toxic but hardly as bad as dioxin, and I have not heard anything about chlorine breaking down into dioxin. People have been using bleach for the better part of a century without ill effects if used correctly, so I wouldn't worry about it. The bugs the bleach would have killed can bite you harder than the bleach.

Probably the UK/Ireland procedure of oxygen bleaches and hot washes is more than sufficient in most cases, with a occasional dose of chlorine bleach once in a while if you find it's necessary.

 

[lavamat_daniele]

Phosphates

Mr x,
in eastern european countries (Croatia or Poland for example) phosphates are still allowed.
Their powders (liquids have been introduced only after 2000) still contain up to 30% of phosphates and they don't use zeolite almost at all.
They are also less concentrated (like "our" detergents of years ago): a dose is 212ml vs. 175ml.
Detergents are available in many brands (only P&G produces Ariel, Tide, Vizir, Bonux) and many variants (each brand is declined in standard version, colour version, perfumed version like alpine for example, lemon scented -that i love-).
Sometimes i drive to these countries from Italy just to get some of them!
Daniele

 

[retromom]

Oxygenated cleaners, etc.

So 'splain me something....my hot water heater is set to 125 degrees f. Are the oxygenated detergents or additives (like Oxyclean) useless because the water isn't hot enough to activate them?

I stopped using chlorine bleach in the washer about six months ago. I now wash white clothes in hot water with detergent and Borax. If the stains (usually on the bottom of daughter's socks) don't come out, I use Spray-n-Wash, then rewash. This seems to do the trick.

As far as phosphates are concerned...did they really do that much environmental harm? Was it any worse than some of these "grandfathered" industrial facilities that continue to spew and belch toxic wastes into the air and water? It's not considered illegal to use them today in the USA. I mean, if we get one of our great overseas washer friends to send detergent containing phosphates, are the "phosphate police" going to come knocking on the door?

Not even going to discuss bedbugs! Makes my skin crawl just thinking about it! [:0

 

[foraloysius]

A friend of mine brought me some detergent from the UK. Among them a box of Daz Handwash & Twin-tub. On the box it says: 15 - 30% Phospate.

 

[lavamat_daniele]

Still about phosphates

They're not toxic, because they're also in some foods.
The mess is that they over-feed sea plants (sorry about my english poor language). Over-grown plants then "eat" too much oxygen in the water and so the water get poor in oxygen and fishes and others animals can't survive well (or can't survive at all).
I bet that my explanation will make laugh most of you!

Daniele

 

[lavamat_daniele]

foraloysius

I don't know about handwash detergents, but standard-automatic detergents from P&G UK don't have phosphates no more. You can read more on www.scienceinthebox.com, in this site P&G says more about their products compositions.
Do you use Yahoo messenger or MSN, foraloysius?
Daniele

 

[foraloysius]

Daniele,

You are right. I remember lakes being green and full of dead fish. After the phosphates were banned in the Netherlands there was a big improvement in the balance in ponds and lakes (the problem occurs mainly in standing water). Long after the phosphates were banned technology to filter the phosphates out of the waste water were devellopped. But too late. Zeolites already had taken over. If the technology had been invented sooner perhaps we still would use phosphates.

 

[lavamat_daniele]

But do u think phosphates to be better than zeolite?
I use both detergents (in powder form) and don't notice big differences.
The big difference i noticed was using liquid french colgate detergents with phosphates: Axion and Gama, now been sold to P&G
They were wonderful soaps: no sudsing at all, bright whitening at low temps, very clean wash and respect of colours.
Anyway I don't know if all this was due do phosphates!
It's a shame that Colgate has sold all of its european brand-names to P&G (they made Dinamo in Italy, but with no phospates as they're banned here).
Daniele

 

[foraloysius]

When phosphates are filtered out of the waste water, I think that would be the best thing for the environment. But unfortunately these techniques have never been installed here. So I guess zeolite is better at the moment. Zeolite is a kind of clay that takes rather long to break down I believe. Perhaps someone else is more knowledgeable on this topic.

 

[MrX]

Phosphates are unnecessary

The only reason that detergent companies use phosphates where they can get away with it is because they're very cheap Zeolites and other more environmentally friendly alternatives are substantially more expensive.

You shouldn't really notice any difference in the results as neither phosphates nor zeolites are active ingredients in the detergent. They just soften the water to allow the detergent to work better.

As for oxygen-based bleaches, there are usually 2 ingredients.. an oxygen based bleach and a bleach activator.
When these two are mixed with water they react and the bleaching process begins. They should work at pretty much any temprature.

Ideally, a European style biological washing powder should be used in water gently heated from cold to 30 or 40C. This is the optimal temp for enzyme action.

There's are quite a few enzymes in powders like Ariel and Persil each acting on a different stain type.. i.e. fats and proteins.

Remember one thing if you're using any Euro biological powder DO NOT USE IT ON SILK OR WOOL!
Silk is 100% protein and will be disolved.. while wool will be very badly damaged and become brittle and shrunken.

 

[tolivac]

I forget the brand names-there are detergents available at hunting supply stores and Catalogs-these do not have optical brightners or scents.Deer-especially can see the effects of the optical brightners-the clothes glow like a beacon to them-and the smell of the scents gives the hunter away as well-the detergnets even wash away the human scents in the clothes as well.you can see them on the Cabalas website-a mail order hunting-fishing equipment supplier.These could be helpful to those who don't want scents or brightners even if they don't hunt .

 

[kenmore1978]

2nd hand mattresses

Mattresses from second-hand and thrift stores: I'm surprised that's even legal!

And from the street! EEK! You'd think it's obvious that a mattress that sat out overnight would immediately get moldy from the dew. How people can sleep on something they just got from the street is beyond me!

Actually, CLEAN 2nd hand mattresses would be OK IF

They're sprayed with an insecticide, preferably pyrethrin-based.

Not used for at least a week. Bedbugs and such can't survive very long without human contact. That's what's done with things that can't be washed.

The cause of that has got to be city policies that don't allow immediate disposal of mattresses in the weekly household trash collection. I've seen enough mattresses on the street that I think I'm going to write to my city council member about this. The sanitation department should be empowered to pick those things up immediately wherever they are seen, regardless of anything else. God!, talk about a huge health hazard!

Here in Los Angeles there is a separte service that picks up matresses, furniture, appliances, and such on the regular trash pickup day BUT, you have to call them ahead of time. I imagine the city can't afford to have trucks driving around everyday just looking for things to pick up. Has to be a "system"

 

[kenmore1978]

oxygen bleach

"As for oxygen-based bleaches, there are usually 2 ingredients.. an oxygen based bleach and a bleach activator.
When these two are mixed with water they react and the bleaching process begins. They should work at pretty much any temprature."

From everything I've read, the hotter the water, the better oxygen bleach works.

There seems to be 2 types

sodium perborate (dry)

hydrogen peroxide (liquid)

I think the sodium perborate requires the higer water temps for best results

 

[launderess]

"Phosphates are unnecessary
The only reason that detergent companies use phosphates where they can get away with it is because they're very cheap Zeolites and other more environmentally friendly alternatives are substantially more expensive. "

No, this is not true. Testing after testing though the years have found no other single laundry detergent builder performs the same functions as well as phosphates. It takes several chemicals to subsitute for the one phosphate, and even then they do not always do the same job.

Besides softening water, phosphates perform many other functions in the wash. Testing after testing has shown laundry laundered with phosphated detergents are cleaner and brighter than any combination of subsitutes.

"You shouldn't really notice any difference in the results as neither phosphates nor zeolites are active ingredients in the detergent. They just soften the water to allow the detergent to work better. "

See above.

Just so you know, Henkel, Germany announced recently they will be discontinuing using zeolites in their wash powders. Zeolites have their problems (cannot remember off hand what they are), and Henkel is now again seeking replacements for phosphates.

As for oxygen-based bleaches, there are usually 2 ingredients.. an oxygen based bleach and a bleach activator.
When these two are mixed with water they react and the bleaching process begins. They should work at pretty much any temprature.

Most washing powders use sodium perborate bleaches which really do not perform well in water temps below 140F. Even sodium percarbonate needs wash temps of above 120F or so. Temps lower than these mean an increase in contact time to achieve the same level of bleaching/stain removal.

In the days when boil washed ruled, Persil (name taken from Silicate and Perborate, two of the original chemicals), gave a whiter wash because the really hot wash temps activated the oxygen bleaches. With wash temps dropping, methods were needed to "activate" oxygen bleaches at lower temps.

Persil uses TAED, which when combined with oxygen bleaches even at low wash temps created peroxygen (sp?)acid. This bleaching compound is actually a more effective bleach than oxygen bleach alone, and sanitises as well (contact time of at least 20 mins at 120F, 10 at 140F. The chemical is also used by breweries to sanitise bottles and equipment.

"Ideally, a European style biological washing powder should be used in water gently heated from cold to 30 or 40C. This is the optimal temp for enzyme action. "

Yes, and no.

Novozyme amoung other chemical suppliers have long developed enzymes that work in boiling, hot, warm, and cold water. There are natual enzymes one finds in hot springs that do very well at temps of over 200F. It is these chemicals that allow detergent makers to advertise detergents that work well in all water temps. Consider dishwashing tablets/powders, most of which now contain enzymes. Dishwashers work at 140F and over temps and one has never heard of anyone starting with cold water and holding at a warm, then going to hot. Well certian Euro-dishwashers do fill with cold and heat to hot, but that is a different story.

It is really only some naturally occuring enzymes that need warm temps for optimal results. What matters most is that enzymes be given enough time to do their work. Twenty minutes or longer in case of badly stained items.

"There's are quite a few enzymes in powders like Ariel and Persil each acting on a different stain type.. i.e. fats and proteins. "

Chief enzymes for laundry detergents are:

Lipase - for digesting fats/oils
Protease - for digesting protiens
Amylase - for digesting starches
Celluase(sp?)- digests cotton fibers to help remove the fuzz on cotton garments.

"Remember one thing if you're using any Euro biological powder DO NOT USE IT ON SILK OR WOOL!
Silk is 100% protein and will be disolved.. while wool will be very badly damaged and become brittle and shrunken. "

While the average homemaker shouldn't use enzymes on wool or silk, commercial laundries/dry cleaners do so all the time to remove tough stains. The only enzyme that would cause serious harm are th e ones that affect protien. Starch,fat and in some cases even protien digesters would be fine in the right hands.
Agian do not try this at home folks.

Launderess

 

[Designgeek]

Re. scents: The stuff I use (Seventh Generation) smells slightly like oranges due to the citrus components; helpful for judging whether another rinse is needed (aside from the obvious about the rinse water getting clear).

Re. mattresses & buggies: But storing a mattress for a week or two, it could still have eggs from fleas, lice, bedbugs... ick! You'd practically have to soak it in pyrethrins to kill stuff hiding inside.

Special collections: Or the drivers of the regular refuse trucks could call public works dispatch on their radios and report the locations of mattresses (along with illegal dumping and other accumulations of similarly health-hazardous bulky materials), so a special truck could go to those locations. The second truck would basically be "on the prowl" for cases of illegal dumping, and its driver would get new ones over the radio and maintain a list of addresses to visit, and then clear them as quickly as possible.

Enzymes: Interesting about wool dissolving in enzymes. Hmm, I have a nice wool blanket with a couple of tears in it, I'm wondering if those might have occurred due to weakening of the fibers as a result of getting washed with enzymes at some point in the past.

Launderess: Good information there. So then are you saying that when using enzymes to get stains out, if you need 20 minutes of contact, and you have a 10-minute agitation cycle, you're supposed to add a 10-minute soak first? How do the modern front-loaders handle that contingency, for example, by using a soak cycle with an occasional slow rotation to distribute the load through the water, or something else?

Re. 140-degrees and up: What about the modern top loaders with plastic tubs? If I'm not mistaken, that plastic (ABS) is not rated for water above 140 degrees. What do you recommend for sanitizing colors if you can't use "really hot" water?

 

[launderess]

Stain Soaking

Most front loaders by nature of design have wash cycles that run pretty long, especially if heating water from cold to warm, hot or boiling. I usually soak badly stained items overnight in a wash tub with a bit of Biz, Cheer or Spray n Wash Pink, this would be for things like table linens or very dirty shirts.

As one should never start with hot washing (sets stains and can shock fabric), if one does not have a washer that heats from cold to hot, a cool or luke warm pre-wash/soak is best. In addition to allowing time for enzymes to work, this also allows fabric fibers to relax and make for easier soil removal.

As for wash temps above 140F using plastic tubed machines:

Again, most modern laundry detergents are designed to give good results at 120F or lower. Many are reporting good results with Cold Water Tide. If laundering items one really wishes to sanitize, would probaly have to use chlorine bleach (if safe), which is what most top loaders are designed for.

Launderess

 

[kirk280980]

Regarding phosphates in the UK and Europe, about 6 months ago when I last used Persil tablets, they definitely still contained 15-30% phosphate - said so right on the box. It's quite possible that they still do, unless the formula has been changed VERY recently; next time I go shopping I shall have to check.

Impression I had was that phosphates were not banned in the UK at least, rather it was a case of laundry detergent manufacturers moving away from them somewhat due to market pressure and consumer demand. Many professional detergents are still packed with phosphates, yet are often sold where anyone can walk in off the street and buy them. And let's not forget dishwasher detergents either, the vast majority of which are around 1/3 phosphate.

Launderess, I think the problem some people have experienced with zeolites is that when they bind hardness minerals from the water, these can end up being deposited on the laundry in the form of tiny white flecks. Usually more of a problem when the machine is grossly overloaded or too frugal on water, both of which can prevent these particles being flushed away freely during the rinse.