polkanut
Well-known member
Kevin,
Did the surge mess up your Monarch range at all?
Did the surge mess up your Monarch range at all?
Is there any real protection from power surges?
- Thread starter vintagekitchen
- Start date
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The trend around here is to have a whole house surge protector installed right at the circuit breaker box. A friend of mine just had it installed by an electrician and it was about $250 total.
Gary
Gary
davetranter
Well-known member
Transformers
Whilst I fully agree that the best (if also most expensive) protection against power irregularities is a UPS or Motor/Generator set, has anyone had much experience with 'Ultra Isolation' type transformers?? ( the deliberately 'lossy' very heavy iron-cored jobs, which appear to function by turning any 'fast rising' transient into a bit more heat in the iron). I have one of these (built by Onan Corp in the U.S.A.) which claims to reduce coupling between the windings at above 50Hz to the equivalent of a few pF. Certainly the ouput voltage looks pretty sinusoidal to me, despite a quite 'dirty' waveform around here....
Obviously, these don't offer any protction from undervoltage faults..
Any comments, please??
Dave T
VintageKitchen: Apart from trying a 'proper' degauss, I would suspect that the surge has fried the LOPT.... :-(
Whilst I fully agree that the best (if also most expensive) protection against power irregularities is a UPS or Motor/Generator set, has anyone had much experience with 'Ultra Isolation' type transformers?? ( the deliberately 'lossy' very heavy iron-cored jobs, which appear to function by turning any 'fast rising' transient into a bit more heat in the iron). I have one of these (built by Onan Corp in the U.S.A.) which claims to reduce coupling between the windings at above 50Hz to the equivalent of a few pF. Certainly the ouput voltage looks pretty sinusoidal to me, despite a quite 'dirty' waveform around here....
Obviously, these don't offer any protction from undervoltage faults..
Any comments, please??
Dave T
VintageKitchen: Apart from trying a 'proper' degauss, I would suspect that the surge has fried the LOPT.... :-(
I am blessed to live in an area with very few irregularities in power. I've never experienced a "brown-out", which seem to be more common in densely-populated/urban areas. Our main threat is lightning. Personally, I'm an unplugger. If there's even a small chance of a thunderstorm while I'm away from the house, I unplug my computer/wi-fi/printer, which are all on a plain old power strip.
I used to unplug the two TVs, but they're both so old (one 14, the other 20) that I just don't care. It would give me an excuse to upgrade. Amazingly, both those CRT televisions have endured very close lightning strikes with no damage!
A close strike a couple of weeks ago caused a temporary loss of power (only a few seconds). The next morning I loaded up the Frigidaire Immersion Care washer, pressed the cycle knob to wake it up and...nothing. Uh-oh. I unplugged it for a few seconds and it fired right up after that. The Frigidaire front-loader, oddly, wasn't bothered even though it was plugged into the same outlet.
Good luck with your television, Kevin!
I used to unplug the two TVs, but they're both so old (one 14, the other 20) that I just don't care. It would give me an excuse to upgrade. Amazingly, both those CRT televisions have endured very close lightning strikes with no damage!
A close strike a couple of weeks ago caused a temporary loss of power (only a few seconds). The next morning I loaded up the Frigidaire Immersion Care washer, pressed the cycle knob to wake it up and...nothing. Uh-oh. I unplugged it for a few seconds and it fired right up after that. The Frigidaire front-loader, oddly, wasn't bothered even though it was plugged into the same outlet.
Good luck with your television, Kevin!
unplugging is the only sure protection
. . . from lightining strikes nearby or direct hits.
Now that ALL our laundry and kitchen appliances are computers that cook & wash, I have researched whole-house surge protection at the breaker box, and get mixed-bag reviews. Apparently if the house is hit hard enough, nothing will save the appliances. One has to hope the house does not catch fire. That happens a LOT around here, including the million-dollar mansions. Yet no one uses lightning rods, not even the multi-million dollar mansions. (built-in sprinkler systems seem to be the way they go)
I keep my computerized sewing machines unplugged when not in use. The dealers assure us that is the only way to protect them from lightning hits, power surges, etc. They are plugged into a UPS while in use, especially when in embroidery machine mode. Buying and learning a newer sewing machine is more bother than learning a new oven or cooktop. And more expensive, too.
Our old land-line phone wire was particularly vulnerable to nearby lightning strikes. Three dial-up modems and one DSL modem got fried by neighborhood hits, but the land-line phones always worked. We're now on VOIP, so when the power goes out, we have no phones or internet connection. But it all works when the power comes back on. Not sure which system is better. Just have to keep the cell phone charged...
. . . from lightining strikes nearby or direct hits.
Now that ALL our laundry and kitchen appliances are computers that cook & wash, I have researched whole-house surge protection at the breaker box, and get mixed-bag reviews. Apparently if the house is hit hard enough, nothing will save the appliances. One has to hope the house does not catch fire. That happens a LOT around here, including the million-dollar mansions. Yet no one uses lightning rods, not even the multi-million dollar mansions. (built-in sprinkler systems seem to be the way they go)
I keep my computerized sewing machines unplugged when not in use. The dealers assure us that is the only way to protect them from lightning hits, power surges, etc. They are plugged into a UPS while in use, especially when in embroidery machine mode. Buying and learning a newer sewing machine is more bother than learning a new oven or cooktop. And more expensive, too.
Our old land-line phone wire was particularly vulnerable to nearby lightning strikes. Three dial-up modems and one DSL modem got fried by neighborhood hits, but the land-line phones always worked. We're now on VOIP, so when the power goes out, we have no phones or internet connection. But it all works when the power comes back on. Not sure which system is better. Just have to keep the cell phone charged...
Thankfully, this isn't something we seem to have an issue with in Ireland. The voltage is very stable anywhere I've lived here.
However, about 5 years ago we had a bolt of lightening that struck our front lawn!
It didn't hit the power lines (they're underground) but our phone line crosses the garden about 300 feet or so from a pole on the street (comes up from underground there).
The lightening didn't strike the phone line, but it induced a huge surge.
Everything connected to the line was fried! So : cordless phone base station, 2 normal phones, both of our satellite set top boxes, the DSL modem and the house alarm system panel.
Even the phone jacks on the wall were damaged as was the wiring. We had to rewire all the phone sockets (ended up not bothering to connect most of them again as the cordless system has 4 handsets and it is more than enough).
I installed a surge protector across the line after that!!
The phone company's distribution cabinets apparently have some kind of surge arrestors in them, as the line tripped out completely and there was no damage to the wiring on the network side, only in the house. I assume they use something a bit more sturdy than CAT5.
Lightening is not a big issue here either, it was a really freak incident.
I lived in France, where lightening in summer is quite a bit issue in some areas as it's on the atlantic coast of Europe and gets quite a lot of hot summers and cold systems interrupting them and you get fireworks when they do!
In areas that suffered from a lot of lightening, it was fairly standard practice to have a system-wide lightening-protection / surge arrester. It protected the entire distribution board and in the event of a surge would just trip the whole house.
You could also install protection on individual circuits or use plug-in surge arrestors for IT equipment and sensitive stuff as an extra layer of protection.
However, about 5 years ago we had a bolt of lightening that struck our front lawn!
It didn't hit the power lines (they're underground) but our phone line crosses the garden about 300 feet or so from a pole on the street (comes up from underground there).
The lightening didn't strike the phone line, but it induced a huge surge.
Everything connected to the line was fried! So : cordless phone base station, 2 normal phones, both of our satellite set top boxes, the DSL modem and the house alarm system panel.
Even the phone jacks on the wall were damaged as was the wiring. We had to rewire all the phone sockets (ended up not bothering to connect most of them again as the cordless system has 4 handsets and it is more than enough).
I installed a surge protector across the line after that!!
The phone company's distribution cabinets apparently have some kind of surge arrestors in them, as the line tripped out completely and there was no damage to the wiring on the network side, only in the house. I assume they use something a bit more sturdy than CAT5.
Lightening is not a big issue here either, it was a really freak incident.
I lived in France, where lightening in summer is quite a bit issue in some areas as it's on the atlantic coast of Europe and gets quite a lot of hot summers and cold systems interrupting them and you get fireworks when they do!
In areas that suffered from a lot of lightening, it was fairly standard practice to have a system-wide lightening-protection / surge arrester. It protected the entire distribution board and in the event of a surge would just trip the whole house.
You could also install protection on individual circuits or use plug-in surge arrestors for IT equipment and sensitive stuff as an extra layer of protection.
<blockquote>I have been hearing commercials from companies that offer whole house surge protection. These companies also talk about customers that get insurance deductions for installing these systems....
I just wonder how they work. Do they install one big protector in your power panel of your home?
Sounds interesting...but have not heard very much about it, and how it works.</blockquote> Brent, yes the protector is typically installed in the main power panel. The electric coop here offered whole-house units for several years but has discontinued them. They're considered a one-time-use situation, same as the outlet-cube protectors ... they no longer protect after a surge has occurred and must be replaced. The whole-house unit I've seen beeps or buzzes as a signal when it has "gone bad" but of course someone must be in a position to hear it and be aware what the signal means.
I do disagree with "unplugging is the only sure protection from lightening strikes" but I wholeheartedly agree that it is HIGHLY effective and extremely low cost!! The problem is that most electronics don't work well when unplugged so its not an answer for items that need to be up 24/7. Truly effective protection does exist but it costs money and must be properly implemented.
Hard wired telephone lines indeed do cause a LOT of headaches for folks due to lightning energy. I think this is because there is typically nothing significant done to protect the line inside the home. Years ago the Bell System would place a carbon static bleed protector at the demarcation point in a building. This would bleed off slow rising voltages (static) but they did little for anything quick or high energy i.e. lightning. Phones of the golden era tended to be robust so they just worked. Also until about 1980 or so the only thing that generally connected to your Telco pair was a passive WE phone. Just try to kill an old Bell 300 phone.
Today the phone has to interconnect with many devices, answering machines, modems, fax machines cable/satellite boxes and many phones themselves plug into AC also. This opens up the door for having separate strike energy paths with dissimilar grounds. Years ago a buddy of mine had a tree next to his home hit by lightning. Because his Telco entrance was on the opposite side of his home from his AC power entrance (both grounded to separate ground rods) they had different ground potentials. As the strike energy is absorbed into the soil around the tree (imagine pouring water on the ground and watching it soak in) the voltage potential of the ground rod for the Telco rises, but the power ground rod at the other side of the home didn't. Electricity took the path of least resistance through the Telco lines and across to the AC through every interconnected device in his home. Scads of damage was done and everything was on surge protectors.
At my home I still have a twisted pair Telco line that provides my voice and DSL service. Bonded to my power panel ground I have a Polyphaser telephone line protector. The Polyphaser can take a strike that will vaporize the 24ga wire into it and not pass more then ring voltage out. I have no fear of any damage from my Telco line. I do inspect the MOV modules from time to time in the Polyphaser. The photo below shows a Polyphaser Telco protector with its replaceable shunt modules. This piece of mind costs about $75
For any of us with large amounts of sensitive equipment a panel mounted impulse suppressor only makes sense. I like the idea of catching the transient and shunting it to ground ASAP instead of allowing it to run roughshod through the home. Remember that we can't stop the energy, all we can do it to divert it away from sensitive equipment. This is better accomplished at the panel as there is less ground resistance there.
Finally, expecting any compensation from the power company for damage is ludicrous. I'd bet that somewhere in the fine print they absolve themselves from any liability. This will fall under home owners insurance in most cases. Its really up to us to protect what we have as best we can and rely on insurance after that.
Hard wired telephone lines indeed do cause a LOT of headaches for folks due to lightning energy. I think this is because there is typically nothing significant done to protect the line inside the home. Years ago the Bell System would place a carbon static bleed protector at the demarcation point in a building. This would bleed off slow rising voltages (static) but they did little for anything quick or high energy i.e. lightning. Phones of the golden era tended to be robust so they just worked. Also until about 1980 or so the only thing that generally connected to your Telco pair was a passive WE phone. Just try to kill an old Bell 300 phone.
Today the phone has to interconnect with many devices, answering machines, modems, fax machines cable/satellite boxes and many phones themselves plug into AC also. This opens up the door for having separate strike energy paths with dissimilar grounds. Years ago a buddy of mine had a tree next to his home hit by lightning. Because his Telco entrance was on the opposite side of his home from his AC power entrance (both grounded to separate ground rods) they had different ground potentials. As the strike energy is absorbed into the soil around the tree (imagine pouring water on the ground and watching it soak in) the voltage potential of the ground rod for the Telco rises, but the power ground rod at the other side of the home didn't. Electricity took the path of least resistance through the Telco lines and across to the AC through every interconnected device in his home. Scads of damage was done and everything was on surge protectors.
At my home I still have a twisted pair Telco line that provides my voice and DSL service. Bonded to my power panel ground I have a Polyphaser telephone line protector. The Polyphaser can take a strike that will vaporize the 24ga wire into it and not pass more then ring voltage out. I have no fear of any damage from my Telco line. I do inspect the MOV modules from time to time in the Polyphaser. The photo below shows a Polyphaser Telco protector with its replaceable shunt modules. This piece of mind costs about $75
For any of us with large amounts of sensitive equipment a panel mounted impulse suppressor only makes sense. I like the idea of catching the transient and shunting it to ground ASAP instead of allowing it to run roughshod through the home. Remember that we can't stop the energy, all we can do it to divert it away from sensitive equipment. This is better accomplished at the panel as there is less ground resistance there.
Finally, expecting any compensation from the power company for damage is ludicrous. I'd bet that somewhere in the fine print they absolve themselves from any liability. This will fall under home owners insurance in most cases. Its really up to us to protect what we have as best we can and rely on insurance after that.
vintagekitchen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2011
- Messages
- 706
Monarch range..
Actually sad to say, I did the unthinkable, and traded in the Monarch. I got another vintage range, but not quite as vintage. The Monarch had the old style oven racks with te chrome rails in the oven for the racks to slide in on, and the oven liner had rusted out around the bolt holes for the chrome rails to the point they would fall out, which made the oven difficult to use, to say the least. Also the matching GE fridge was going downhill fast, the seal was no longer properly sealing, so nothing was as cold as it should have been. I will post pics in a new thread.
Actually sad to say, I did the unthinkable, and traded in the Monarch. I got another vintage range, but not quite as vintage. The Monarch had the old style oven racks with te chrome rails in the oven for the racks to slide in on, and the oven liner had rusted out around the bolt holes for the chrome rails to the point they would fall out, which made the oven difficult to use, to say the least. Also the matching GE fridge was going downhill fast, the seal was no longer properly sealing, so nothing was as cold as it should have been. I will post pics in a new thread.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
VintageKitchen
We had storms in Lexington yesterday but there were no power outages at least here where I am. But the other week we had a REALLY BAD one like 1 am. I was still up and on the computer and the power went out for 3 seconds, then came back on.......Everything was plugged in and nothing was damaged. I was amazed. The only thing I have plugged into surge protection is washer, TV, Computers, everything else is on its own. This area of town I'm in is newer and the all lines are underground. Back in 2003 ( I think ) we had a major ice storm and a lot of the city was without power for over a week. This area of town never lost power during that. That's actually the first time I've noticed a power flicker since I've lived here even in terrible storms.
I guess if there is a bad storm coming I will unplug everything I can think of.
We had storms in Lexington yesterday but there were no power outages at least here where I am. But the other week we had a REALLY BAD one like 1 am. I was still up and on the computer and the power went out for 3 seconds, then came back on.......Everything was plugged in and nothing was damaged. I was amazed. The only thing I have plugged into surge protection is washer, TV, Computers, everything else is on its own. This area of town I'm in is newer and the all lines are underground. Back in 2003 ( I think ) we had a major ice storm and a lot of the city was without power for over a week. This area of town never lost power during that. That's actually the first time I've noticed a power flicker since I've lived here even in terrible storms.
I guess if there is a bad storm coming I will unplug everything I can think of.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
PS
Lightning struck a tree beside my dad house and ended up blowing holes in the cement driveway a few years ago.
Lightning struck a tree beside my dad house and ended up blowing holes in the cement driveway a few years ago.
I rarely have power outages around here, but when I do I flip off the main breaker. I think one of the riskiest times for equipment is when they attemp to reconnect the mains. Everyone in my neighborhood has lamp posts for lighting at night so if its dark I know when they power is on. During the day I just listen to hear when the generators are killed.
I think it's funny, we have very few outages, we've gone 5+ years , yet many do have generators. I do have a generator but I'm leary of using it with all the electronics I have, it's old from the early 90's and I think the power may be quite dirty.
I think it's funny, we have very few outages, we've gone 5+ years , yet many do have generators. I do have a generator but I'm leary of using it with all the electronics I have, it's old from the early 90's and I think the power may be quite dirty.
Old generator
Matt, just because your generator is old doesn't make bad. The only thing that it could do to cause serious damage to electronics is have voltage regulation problems, especially over voltage. Generally old engine driven altranator gensets have very "clean" power although the frequency may vary a bit. Most loads are pretty insensitive to minor line freq variations.
If you have a Kill-A-Watt meter plug it in and see what you get. For really sensitive loads like a PC etc use a UPS in front of the load to provide protection.
I like your suggestion of isolating your house during a failure by turning off the main breaker. Only trouble could come from it tripping from inrush when you turn it back on if you have a lot of active loads.
Indeed the bouncing power that goes with many outages causes a lot of damage. All air conditioners should have a delayed relay for the compresser to prevent stalls and possible damage from trying to restart with head pressure.
Matt, just because your generator is old doesn't make bad. The only thing that it could do to cause serious damage to electronics is have voltage regulation problems, especially over voltage. Generally old engine driven altranator gensets have very "clean" power although the frequency may vary a bit. Most loads are pretty insensitive to minor line freq variations.
If you have a Kill-A-Watt meter plug it in and see what you get. For really sensitive loads like a PC etc use a UPS in front of the load to provide protection.
I like your suggestion of isolating your house during a failure by turning off the main breaker. Only trouble could come from it tripping from inrush when you turn it back on if you have a lot of active loads.
Indeed the bouncing power that goes with many outages causes a lot of damage. All air conditioners should have a delayed relay for the compresser to prevent stalls and possible damage from trying to restart with head pressure.
Thanks, I do have a Kill-a-Watt meter, will try it and see what I get.
I think flipping the main breaker does two things, one it prevents surges when the power comes back on and two it helps clean the contacts. I recall hearing or reading that the main and I'd guess other breakers should be flipped perhaps annually to prevent corrosion. True or not, I don't know, but ti does not hurt anything.
I think flipping the main breaker does two things, one it prevents surges when the power comes back on and two it helps clean the contacts. I recall hearing or reading that the main and I'd guess other breakers should be flipped perhaps annually to prevent corrosion. True or not, I don't know, but ti does not hurt anything.
davetranter
Well-known member
Constant Voltage Transformer
One of these may help to limit 'spike' energy fed through to the load, and will minimise the effects of short 'brownouts' and/or longer 'sags'. Obviously, no protection from actual 'outages'.....
Still far cheaper than a generator/UPS. Can be had from Ebay, etc.
All best
Dave T
One of these may help to limit 'spike' energy fed through to the load, and will minimise the effects of short 'brownouts' and/or longer 'sags'. Obviously, no protection from actual 'outages'.....
Still far cheaper than a generator/UPS. Can be had from Ebay, etc.
All best
Dave T
--And the Audio-Phile!
I wonder how, or at least if my stereo is on, and my washer or dryer should "cycle on", if there is any loss of power going to it...
A lot of worry, yet the music never really skips a beat!
So, I guess that's where "how" comes in... Does anyone know more?
-- Dave
I wonder how, or at least if my stereo is on, and my washer or dryer should "cycle on", if there is any loss of power going to it...
A lot of worry, yet the music never really skips a beat!
So, I guess that's where "how" comes in... Does anyone know more?
-- Dave
Real, real, real protection.... and low cost... and really reliable
Unplug absolutely everything. AND NEVER PLUG THEM!
ducks and runs
Unplug absolutely everything. AND NEVER PLUG THEM!
ducks and runs
I have a multiple-plug outlet that actually has surge-protection for my stereo equipment, so reeling back a little, I think I can rest assured that my stuff is safe (even given that there is one plug unused, and saved only for my occasional window fan)...
--Yes, I am at the point of over-load: I have a portable CD that operates via AC adapter and a DVD, that occasionally gets unplugged for my "video tree" plugged into a small power bar that's hitched into that thing, in addition to my mainstream, consisting of my stereo rig, phono (plugged into an aux. equip. outlet in the amp/tuner), cassette, a table lamp and CD...
Just wondered & thought back if there were ever a time I would have gotten a "clipped" sound, or if even the cheapest, modest equipment (audio & video) might have any built-in protection (well, an old TV screen could get fuzzy) from that...
-- Dave
--Yes, I am at the point of over-load: I have a portable CD that operates via AC adapter and a DVD, that occasionally gets unplugged for my "video tree" plugged into a small power bar that's hitched into that thing, in addition to my mainstream, consisting of my stereo rig, phono (plugged into an aux. equip. outlet in the amp/tuner), cassette, a table lamp and CD...
Just wondered & thought back if there were ever a time I would have gotten a "clipped" sound, or if even the cheapest, modest equipment (audio & video) might have any built-in protection (well, an old TV screen could get fuzzy) from that...
-- Dave
fan-of-fans
Well-known member
I had my bedroom TV and VCR plugged into a plain old power strip, one summer we had a lightning strike right outside and it got the TV but not the VCR, the power strip was fine. I also had a real surge protector on my computer, but an inexpensive one, the computer and printer were fine, but we were still on dial up and though the line was plugged into the surge protector, it still got the modem.
After that I got better APC surge strips for the computer and all TV locations. Haven't had any issues since. I usually keep the surge strip for my bedroom TV, VCR, DVD turned off so they aren't using power since I never really use them. I guess there is no protection since it's turned off, but just before the storm I unplugged them all anyway and still haven't plugged back in. All electronics use a small amount of power when turned off so they're ready to turn on when you need them (kind of like a pilot light on a stove or furnace). I figure no sense in wasting power for that on the ones that rarely get used, so keep the supply switched off. It may not be much power but still if it saves a few dollars why not.
After that I got better APC surge strips for the computer and all TV locations. Haven't had any issues since. I usually keep the surge strip for my bedroom TV, VCR, DVD turned off so they aren't using power since I never really use them. I guess there is no protection since it's turned off, but just before the storm I unplugged them all anyway and still haven't plugged back in. All electronics use a small amount of power when turned off so they're ready to turn on when you need them (kind of like a pilot light on a stove or furnace). I figure no sense in wasting power for that on the ones that rarely get used, so keep the supply switched off. It may not be much power but still if it saves a few dollars why not.
