It's a sad day for Vintage Dishwasher collectors!

[bigalsf]

Dishwasher and ReStore

Hello everyone. Thank you to Mickey for such nice words! I need to clarify something first, however. I do not work for the ReStore; rather I volunteer there about 3 times/month (repairing/restoring/testing appliances, of course!). I have been volunteering there for about 4 years. I have not heard of this restriction on selling dishwashers and I just put a portable & a built in on the sales floor last Saturday. But very coincidentally the warehouse manager & I were discussing the subject of selling them. He was saying that if he had his preference he would not sell the dishwashers and that the only reason the store did was that there was a definite demand for them, and they brought in money. His issue/concern stems from the fact that, although we warrant all the appliances for 30 days, bringing a dishwasher back is not as easy as bringing back a washer, dryer, range, etc. The dishwasher removal is a more involved process and the experience makes for a fairly bad impression on the customer. Additionally, if the problem with the machine goes unnoticed for a number of days (e.g. a slow leak that goes behind the machine instead of in front) it can result in property damage and possible liability for the store (good lawyers can get around the "As-Is" wording). All this can translate into very bad P.R. and keep a customer from coming back for a future purchase. Since the vast majority of the revenue which the store generates goes towards addressing homelessness it is critical to keep revenue coming in. As much as I love keeping older machines running and in circulation, it's more important to keep customers. This thinking by store managers may be driving the decision to discontinue selling dishwashers in some locations? That would make more sense. John L. is correct...there is not enough "pipe" on these appliances to endanger anyone from an increased exposure to lead!! Do Federal officials think we're that dumb?

We don't sell many vintage machines, except for the occasional KDS 20, 21, 22,or 23. We don't sell anything else older than 10 years, and those are usually good condition Whirlpools, Kenmores, and Maytags. The other vintage machines (which I love!) are too hard to get parts for & there is not too much of a market for them (I know, what's wrong with these people? LOL)

I will ask the warehouse manager tomorrow about this to see what he's heard. My gut feeling is that this is a jurisdictional issue. Greg's post mentioned the law went into affect Jan 4, which was almost a month ago. If it were an issue we would have heard about it by now. Also, Joe's link takes you to the website for the New Castle, DE store. The website for my store mentions nothing about this. I will let everyone know what he says.

Sorry for such a long post.

 

[beekeyknee]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Thousands of tons of lead makes its way back into the environment from CRT televisions that are not recycled. And that doesn't include lead from solder in rejected electronics, especially from countries like China and others that don't follow the Rohs directive. It's just more b/s to aggravate people like us that that appreciate quality appliances and to force planned obsolescence on us. Makes me furious.

 

[beekeyknee]

Thanks Alan,

I hope you're right. If I can't go to the ReStore to hopefully fine something of quality that I can't buy new I won't go at all.

B.

 

[tolivac]

Now we have heard it all-the stupid regulation folks strike again-the folks making the laws on things end up being the most ignorant about the subject-brass parts in dishwashers and even plumbing fixtures that dispense water are NOT an issue-what negegilable amount of lead that is in brass parts gets covered by calcium and other mineral deposits from the water on the inside of plumbing,pipes,fixtures and such-There are older homes fed with LEAD pipes that aren't leaching lead into the water into that house or building becuase of the protective mineral deposits from the water.The Chicken Littles are at it again!!WHEN IS THIS NONESENSE GOING TO STOP!!!???It is so STUPID!!!Now perfectcally good dishwashers,plumbing fixtures go to the landfill or recycling when they can be recycled better by going to another owner that appreciates them.

 

[arbilab]

Who exactly is at risk using their dishwasher as a drinking fountain?

 

[NYCWriter]

Are you joking??

"Why on earth would anyone that still has their teeth want to remove Fluoride from their water supply, even at my advanced age I have yet to even have a crown let alone loose any teeth and I have been drinking Fluoridated water since the 50s."

Because fluoride is a neurotoxin, and is proven to cause:

-- damage to the male reproductive system, resulting in, at best, impotence and infertility, and at worst, testicular cancer.

-- From the National Research Council (2006): "It is apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain.” The EPA classifies fluoride as a chemical for which there is “substantial evidence of developmental neurotoxicity.” This includes autism in children, and dementia and Alzheimer's in adults.

-- There have been 24 studies from China, Iran, India and Mexico that show an association between fluoride exposure and reduced IQ.

-- Fluoride also affects the pineal gland, triggering early puberty.

-- Fluoride negatively impacts thyroid function. The Department of Health and Human Services has pegged fluoride exposure in fluoridated communities to their increased instances to hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid). Not surprising, given the rampant and increasing problem of hypothyroidism in the United States and other fluoridated countries. Symptoms of hypothyroidism include depression, fatigue, weight gain, muscle and joint pains, increased cholesterol levels, and heart disease. In 2010, the second-most-prescribed drug of the year was Synthroid (sodium levothyroxine) which is a hormone replacement drug used to treat an underactive thyroid.

-- Fluoride causes symptoms of arthritis.

-- Fluoride damages bone, increasing instances of hip fractures in the elderly. One Chinese study looked at hip fractures in six Chinese villages, and found an increase in hip fractures as the concentration of fluoride rose from 1 ppm (parts per million) to 8 ppm.

As is often the case, other countries have wised up before the U.S. has (mostly because, of course, public policy in the U.S. is overwhelmingly slanted in favor of industrial interests, rather than the good of the public health). Water fluoridation has been banned in many countries, including China, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Hungary, and Japan.

Nearly all of Europe’s water supply is now fluoride-free. And by the way, children aren't getting any more cavities in those countries than American children. Why? Because the whole premise of fluoridating the water supply -- even if fluoride had no negative health effects -- is flawed right from the start: its benefits to our teeth (marginal as they are) are only realized if the fluoride is physically on your teeth for AT LEAST three minutes at a time, not in micro-second bursts when you drink down glasses of water. Remember those old-school dental "fluoride treatments" where the dentist stuffed our mouths with molded sponges and left us sitting there for what felt like forever? THAT is how fluoride (marginally) benefits our teeth.

Not only do I filter out the fluoride from my water, I refuse to even use toothpaste containing fluoride.[this post was last edited: 1/29/2014-06:26]

 

[gansky1]

Thinking back over the last month or so of my usual Friday stops at the Restore location(s) here, I recall now signs in the plumbing department selling off "sinks & lavatories with attached faucets" for $5, far less than their usual pricing of $35-50.  Not knowing the reason, I figured they were selling off inventory before the new year.   

 

I only noticed the dishwashers were all gone last week but thinking about it, there were also no kitchen or bath faucets, nor sinks with faucets attached - a normal sight at Habitat.

 

A couple of weeks ago, I grabbed a wall-hung lavatory I'd had my eye on for a while.  For only $5 instead of $50, how could I lose?  Imagine my good fortune!  Lol  I love these old Crane fixtures and thought it would make a cool replacement for the pedestrian, big-box white pedestal sink in the room now.  I'd been doing some reading and research on replacing and rebuilding the faucet & drain parts.  I guess I'd better order the parts I may need, who knows how far this "ban" will extend.  Ugh.

 

This is my sink (without the girl) but my sink is the jade-green color.

http://deabath.com/Crane_Parts/Crane_faucet_stem/crane_faucet_stem.html

 

[tomturbomatic]

Greg, I have long admired those sinks with the cast in water spout and like that color you are talking about.

 

[maytag712]

Kinda crazy if you ask me.

 

[norgeway]

Everything today!

Is CRAZY, I grew up in a house with lead based pain...did I chew things and get lead poisoning...hell no, because my Mother would bUST MY hiney if I chewed on anything!!, I would love to go back to the days of lead paint, coal smoke and good old asbestos, common sense is what is needed, not regulations!

 

[tolivac]

Norgeway--AGREED!!!!!Too many regs--drive up costs and lower standards of living.Get rid of the ones we have now--and things would GET BETTER again-the economy just might pick up!We could build things here again!Thats right- parents in older days-and at school--would teach kids about hazardous things and how to avoid them-or not touch or eat them.

 

[Chetlaham]

That's really insane. I wonder if the law truly effects dishwashers or habitat is just misunderstanding it?

 

[rp2813]

This is nanny government going too far

Whatever happened to personal responsibility and survival of the fittest?  There's no doubt in my mind that the gene pool in this country is out of whack due to legislation that promotes its deterioration.

 

If in fact HFH is interpreting this latest crock of craziness correctly.

 

I was at my ReStore this past week and they still had dishwashers and sinks.  I can't recall if the sinks had faucets on them, but there were used faucets on the plumbing shelves.

 

[chachp]

I spoke to my brother-in-law...

....who manages a H4H in Denver.

I THINK this is what he said because he's pretty smart and uses a lot of big words:

He quoted what was stated above:

The Federal Reduction of Lead in Drinking Water Act went into effect on January 4, 2014. Currently, all products anticipated for potable water use must be "lead free". The term "lead free" refers to < 0.25% weighted average lead content in relation to wetted surface of pipe, fittings, and fixtures in systems delivering water for human consumption.

And he said devices need to have a CSA label on them indicating they meet these requirements. If the label is there they will sell it. If not they don't. He said usually with faucets the label is on the box so they will generally sell new ones but used ones without the label will not be sold.

So, bottom line they are selling newer dishwashers but the older ones get trashed. Here in Little Rock they are not selling them at all.

 

[retromania]

Yes...

Sound like they just didn't want to fool with used dishwashers anymore!

 

[turquoisedude]

A CSA label??

That's odd - CSA is the Canadian Standards Association and they approve the safety of various appliances and household equipment. Their label is the equivalent of a UL (underwriters labs) one in the US.

Does that mean that Canadian dishwashers will now be in demand in the US?? LOL

 

[jetcone]

Crazy

Did you know they just reduced again the water usage requirements for washing machines coming down the pike? I haven't checked how low this time but some idiot that has never washed a diaper must have come up with the newer standards!

 

 

I'm with NYC on the fluoride, just installed an alumina filter water tastes better already. 

 

 

 

[chachp]

i could have had the acronym wrong...

But it sounded like he said CSA.  I can ask him again.  

 

[tsteves5]

My Habitat Still Has Dishwashers

For what it's worth, I was in a Habitat in Denver today and they still have a bunch of dishwashers. Some were defintely older than 10 years.

 

[launderess]

Summary Of The

Reduction Of Lead In Drinking Water Act

And Frequently Asked Questions

How does EPA interpret the phrase “potable services”?

A. EPA interprets “potable services” to be services or applications that provide water suitable

for human ingestion (e.g. drinking, teeth brushing, food preparation, dishwashing,

maintaining oral hygiene).

6. Q. Are household appliances or fixtures, such as washing machines, dishwashers and water

heaters subject to the lead free requirements?

A. If the appliance or fixture is part of the plumbing system and is not used exclusively for

nonpotable services, it is subject to the lead free requirements. As a result, washing

machines are exempt as a device that is used exclusively for nonpotable services.

Dishwashers and water heaters, on the other hand, are not exempt because they are used for

potable services.

http://water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/upload/epa815s13001.pdf

 

[launderess]

See also: http://www.fwwebb.com/lead_free/index.php

 

[washer111]

???

What the devil do dishwashers have to do with "potable" water.

 

Sure, they use water from the potable service, but, like John L. said above, the amount (if any) of measurable lead content being placed into the water over the duration of the cycle is so insignificant that it can't be deemed "poisonus."

The problem arises from people drinking water from aging lead-pipes: Ones that are starting to leak or break down, typically in houses with very naturally soft {i.e. rain-water} supplies. Such houses were probably re-plumbed years ago due to numerous "pin-hole leaks."

 

I will also comment, lead pipes ARE safe, provided they are not exposed to Reverse-Osmosis or Mechanically Softened (i.e. Sodium Chloride fuelled water softener) water supplies. The layer of calcium and magnesium buildup will completely cover the lead, whereas both of the above systems make water that is slightly harsh (particularly R.O. systems) on the piping, and causes the pipes to leak.

People who installed water softeners with lead pipes often begin noticing pin-hole leaks of a period of time, due to the water breaking down Calcium in the pipes and rotting out the lead.

 

[beekeyknee]

The EPA, like many other government agencies, goes over board in some areas and totally fails in others. Why can't the people that work for these agencies have some common sense. It's like they can't see the forest for the trees. And they wonder why the people don't have any confidence in them. Every time I am subjected to a government entity I have to prepare myself for incompetency and I'm pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen.

Sorry this is drifting a bit from where it started.

 

[combo52]

Lead In Water

I completely agree with the EPAs regulations regarding doing anything reasonable to reduce peoples exposure to lead.

I also think that it is an extreme overreach to not sell a used DW because of one small brass fitting that is part of almost all built-in DWs produced over the last 50+ years. I do think that it makes good sense not to build DWs with this fitting as there are other satisfactory ways to connect water to the machine that do not have lead in the fittings.

I do not think that ANYONE that knows the extreme hazards of lead on young children would ever suggest that lead water supply pipes are safe under ANY circumstances.

Here in Washington DC it was common to have the main water supply pipe coming into the home be made of lead, and our water is not very soft [ average 6-10 grains of hardness ] yet fairly high levels have been measured in hundreds of homes all over the city.

The city and homeowners are still working to replace all the lead water supply's throughout the city.

John L.

 

[washer111]

Perhaps I Should Correct Myself:

Lead pipes are not 100% safe (nothing is), but are safer in hard water areas (Where you typically need a softener, not where it might be "desirable," and hardness buildup isn't prolific in kettles (i.e. Ours is hard enough before softening to ruin kettles in less than a year, and before we repaired the softener, we replaced 1 kettle 7 months after moving in that was 10 years old at that point and another about 8 months later). 

 

If you are aware of lead pipes in your house, then by all means REPLACE them, especially if you have to soften your water OR you use "corrosive" rain-water. Don't keep them because you think they are okay. 

 

I agree that the presence of lead in plumbing (except waste, where applicable) is something that needs to be reduced. But applying such silly restrictions on home washers or dishwashers is unreasonable and invalid. 

What they should do INSTEAD is mandate that houses not have any lead plumbing in them when being sold onwards (Similar to how ALL houses in Australia MUST have an RCD {GFCI} installed + Smoke-Detectors upon resale, or cars MUST have immobilisers fitted).

Right there you have economic stimulus and jobs creation from pipe replacement you have mandated. Then the government can prattle how it reduced risk AND increased jobs at the same time. Win for ALL. 

 

[tolivac]

Really now,Do you REALLY think the brass fittings in an old dishwasher present THAT much of a "lead" danger-think not-these fittings have been used for DECADES without problems.The "Chicken Little Syndrome" strikes again.I remember as a kid---got a thrill out of cleaning out the bullet trap at the local pistol range-indoor range-and shot there with my Dad a lot.Taught me how to shoot both a pistol and rifle there.Enjoyed helping out on the range chores.I am still here and all of my blood counts are normal.Certainly a range backstop would have more lead danger than brass fittings in appliances.And that means perfectly good dishwashers get scrapped rather than renjoyed in another home-and think of it some folks not only collect them as we do on appliances-but some folks can't AFFORD a new dishwassher.Esp with the sour economy as we have now.

 

[beekeyknee]

A blood test will reveal hundreds of toxic chemicals in most peoples blood. I have a feeling that someone or more likely some corporation is grinding an axe to prevent used dishwashers from being sold so that more trash dishwashers will have to be purchased. It could be a shady back room deal between lobbyists and government. There's usually a story behind the story that most of us never hear.

The government loves to set acceptable levels, but those levels and the levels the body will accept are usually two different things.