My Energy Saver IV Superba by Hobart KitchenAid model KDS-19 stops with the Sani Heat and Rinse lights remaining on. It apparantly continues to heat, because the first time I noticed this was several hours after I began a wash cycle and the granite countertop above the washer was quite warm. When I push the Cancel Cycle button, the machine continues to cycle through to the end and then turns itself off, as normal. I noticed this again today using the Light Wash cycle, although it did not seem to occur when I used Fast Wash No Dry. Dishes still come out clean with no spots, though I am not going to leave the machine operating when I am not home because of the non-stop heat. Any ideas?
KitchenAid Superba stops and heats
- Thread starter tony
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KitchenAid
My Mom had the exact same dishwasher for 25 years. It heats in the first and last rinse. No heater on during drying. Are you going to keep the machine?
Peter
My Mom had the exact same dishwasher for 25 years. It heats in the first and last rinse. No heater on during drying. Are you going to keep the machine?
Peter
That's the idea
The dishwasher was in the house when I bought it 23 years ago. When I renovated in 1992, the designer thought I was nuts for not getting a new one, but it worked fine and there was no reason to replace it. If the repair is reasonable, I will keep it.
Went to Sears yesterday to see about a replacement, but even a $700 Bosch model has plastic parts, where the KitchenAid has stainless steel.
The dishwasher was in the house when I bought it 23 years ago. When I renovated in 1992, the designer thought I was nuts for not getting a new one, but it worked fine and there was no reason to replace it. If the repair is reasonable, I will keep it.
Went to Sears yesterday to see about a replacement, but even a $700 Bosch model has plastic parts, where the KitchenAid has stainless steel.
KitchenAid
Good Luck I hope it is fixable. Those KitchenAids were made like tanks. Keep us posted.
Peter
Good Luck I hope it is fixable. Those KitchenAids were made like tanks. Keep us posted.
Peter
It's a vexing problem. Doesn't sound like the timer, because it cycles part way. The heater obviously works. I'm hoping someone here will suggest why it might refuse to advance. Rinsing occurs and ends, but the Rinse light stays on, along with the heat and the Sani Heat light. Seems like something is stopping the machine from continuing to the drying mode.
Hi Tony, I don't know those newer KitchenAid machines very well, but I believe that in order for the timer to start advancing out of the water heating stage the thermostat needs to be tripped. Have you tested the thermostat by chance, maybe it's stuck open?
stevet
Well-known member
slow to warm up to you Kitchenaid!
Tony, It would seem that the thermostat for the sani heat is not closing like it was suggested before.It interrupts the timer motor until the desired temperature is reached. If that was the case, though it would heat until it tripped the high limit and the machine would shut down.
Are you actually sure the element is working. When it heats you can hear it "sizzling" and also, it is a dual element..2 700 watt units in one. when it first heats and when it sani heats, you use 1400 watts and for the heating during the cycles it uses the 700 watt s to up the temp about 1 degree a minute.So see if you can determine if it is working. Many times a wire connecetor on the element can fall off or burn away causing it to not heat. You may have to pull the machine out to check it and sdont overlook the white neutral wires under the machine. there were many common connections where a few wires would be joined and sometimes they loosen up or one falls off. I had that happen on my curent in kitchen machine which is a KDS-18 Nothing worked except the drain valve. Pulled the machine into the garage and found the wire in about 2 minutes. I have had other wires do the same on that machine but it is nearing 30 years old! If the element isnt heating, that would make it just sit and appear to be heating.
I have the same machine and my timer blew out because the drain valve wire came loose and shorted out taking the main buss connection on the time with it, I tried finding a new timer but to no avail. Even tried Midwest timer service and the guy there was really into helpng me out but they had already tossed all their stuff out.
The machine I have is a tank but it is the whie porcelain tank and I actually added a hot air dryer assy from another Kitchen aid and you would not believe how well theat machine dries with the hot air. I like that it heats the water and cleans better than anything on the market today.
You may also find that the timer contacts for the element may have burned out or the wires are burnt in the connector block on the timer. That was a common problem due to the amperage the element would draw.It would sometimes even take out the contacts in the program switch. It would work perfect on full cycle and not on sanicycle or vice versa or only work on the longest cycle. Think about it, if you use the same settings all the time those contacts will burn out faster than a cycle button you never use.
I am thinking of parting out my machine so if you hang on to yours.. holler back at me and maybe we can salvage at least one of them.
Tony, It would seem that the thermostat for the sani heat is not closing like it was suggested before.It interrupts the timer motor until the desired temperature is reached. If that was the case, though it would heat until it tripped the high limit and the machine would shut down.
Are you actually sure the element is working. When it heats you can hear it "sizzling" and also, it is a dual element..2 700 watt units in one. when it first heats and when it sani heats, you use 1400 watts and for the heating during the cycles it uses the 700 watt s to up the temp about 1 degree a minute.So see if you can determine if it is working. Many times a wire connecetor on the element can fall off or burn away causing it to not heat. You may have to pull the machine out to check it and sdont overlook the white neutral wires under the machine. there were many common connections where a few wires would be joined and sometimes they loosen up or one falls off. I had that happen on my curent in kitchen machine which is a KDS-18 Nothing worked except the drain valve. Pulled the machine into the garage and found the wire in about 2 minutes. I have had other wires do the same on that machine but it is nearing 30 years old! If the element isnt heating, that would make it just sit and appear to be heating.
I have the same machine and my timer blew out because the drain valve wire came loose and shorted out taking the main buss connection on the time with it, I tried finding a new timer but to no avail. Even tried Midwest timer service and the guy there was really into helpng me out but they had already tossed all their stuff out.
The machine I have is a tank but it is the whie porcelain tank and I actually added a hot air dryer assy from another Kitchen aid and you would not believe how well theat machine dries with the hot air. I like that it heats the water and cleans better than anything on the market today.
You may also find that the timer contacts for the element may have burned out or the wires are burnt in the connector block on the timer. That was a common problem due to the amperage the element would draw.It would sometimes even take out the contacts in the program switch. It would work perfect on full cycle and not on sanicycle or vice versa or only work on the longest cycle. Think about it, if you use the same settings all the time those contacts will burn out faster than a cycle button you never use.
I am thinking of parting out my machine so if you hang on to yours.. holler back at me and maybe we can salvage at least one of them.
stevet
Well-known member
oops forgot something
Tony, for the record, the unit doesnt preheat nor sani heat the water during the fast wash and light wash cycles so that is why they went right thru. They are basically the same cycle except the no dry advances thru the dry phase completely so it seems like a really fast cycle
Tony, for the record, the unit doesnt preheat nor sani heat the water during the fast wash and light wash cycles so that is why they went right thru. They are basically the same cycle except the no dry advances thru the dry phase completely so it seems like a really fast cycle
Steve T, thanks, you've given me a lot to consider. The program switch burnout for commonly used cycles makes sense. Regarding the heating element not working: something definitely was overheating in the machine. The granite counter top was very warm-- much warmer than could be caused by hot water alone. Also, there was a burning electrical smell. On the other hand, the second time it happened, I opened the door and did not see any glow from the heating element. What else would cause excessive heat if the heating element was not working? Haven't had the time so far to open it up and look around.
stevet
Well-known member
more to consider!
Tony, you should never see the element glowing red unless there was no water at all in the tank and it was in the heat mode.This event can cause serious damage to the element and nearby plastic pieces of the pump and filter assy.Until the 21 series machines and I mean anything less than a superba model, the element never came on during the drying period. Since your machine was the first and only complete series of models that had no heated air dry, there would be no heat at all during the dry period and you would not see any glowing of the element.
Hard to say why the counter was so hot unless the machine DID in fact keep heating the water in the tank.
Did you open the door and see water in it? If so, then it may have the stuck open heat thermostat scenario and may have been close to hitting the hi limit. However, sometimes conditions around the machine could drain off enough heat from the tank into the surrounding area, that while the water was at the sani level, it never reached the hi limit safety level.Like how much heat did that thin insulation blanket really hold in?
I know that this may sound confusing, but the downfall of this model series was the piss poor drying job it did and how it had to have all the best of conditions to retain heat in the tank to dry the dishes. It didnt take Hobart long to go back to the fan forced heated dry system on the -20 series with the no heat option button. The 19 and 20 series cycles were nearly identical with the exception of the heated dry setup.
if you can, try to see if you can tell if the element is heating when it fills.
What does it do now when you use it and was this a few isolated events? I would be interested in knowing.
If you are really handy electrically, you can remove the thermostats under the tank and test them against a 60 watt light bulb who's surface should get hot enough to trip the switch contacts inside of them. dont confuse them as one is the sani stat and one is the safety. the sani stat should "click" before the safety.
Let me know what happens. you can email me directly if you want. [email protected]
Tony, you should never see the element glowing red unless there was no water at all in the tank and it was in the heat mode.This event can cause serious damage to the element and nearby plastic pieces of the pump and filter assy.Until the 21 series machines and I mean anything less than a superba model, the element never came on during the drying period. Since your machine was the first and only complete series of models that had no heated air dry, there would be no heat at all during the dry period and you would not see any glowing of the element.
Hard to say why the counter was so hot unless the machine DID in fact keep heating the water in the tank.
Did you open the door and see water in it? If so, then it may have the stuck open heat thermostat scenario and may have been close to hitting the hi limit. However, sometimes conditions around the machine could drain off enough heat from the tank into the surrounding area, that while the water was at the sani level, it never reached the hi limit safety level.Like how much heat did that thin insulation blanket really hold in?
I know that this may sound confusing, but the downfall of this model series was the piss poor drying job it did and how it had to have all the best of conditions to retain heat in the tank to dry the dishes. It didnt take Hobart long to go back to the fan forced heated dry system on the -20 series with the no heat option button. The 19 and 20 series cycles were nearly identical with the exception of the heated dry setup.
if you can, try to see if you can tell if the element is heating when it fills.
What does it do now when you use it and was this a few isolated events? I would be interested in knowing.
If you are really handy electrically, you can remove the thermostats under the tank and test them against a 60 watt light bulb who's surface should get hot enough to trip the switch contacts inside of them. dont confuse them as one is the sani stat and one is the safety. the sani stat should "click" before the safety.
Let me know what happens. you can email me directly if you want. [email protected]
KitchenAid
The 19 series did dry much better if you used jetdry. In the 20 series the the last rinse was not heated unless you used sani cycle. Now today so many of the european machines use no heat drying. And some say the drying is good only if you use jetdry.
Peter
The 19 series did dry much better if you used jetdry. In the 20 series the the last rinse was not heated unless you used sani cycle. Now today so many of the european machines use no heat drying. And some say the drying is good only if you use jetdry.
Peter
Rarely if ever use the heated drying function on my lowly Kenmore 18" dw and have no problems with drying. Use Ecover rinse aid and when I open the machine next day, items are dry. There may be the odd wet top of a glass or item that wasn't loaded properly to drain, but that is my fault.
Only time one uses heated drying is when items are needed in a hurry (read forgot to run the dw the night before), or during very humid weather and the house is like a sauna.
Only time one uses heated drying is when items are needed in a hurry (read forgot to run the dw the night before), or during very humid weather and the house is like a sauna.
I hope you are able to repair your machine because for no amount of money will you be able to find a new replacement machine as good as your KAid.
NOTHING at any price these days is leaving the factory with a quality level as high as KAID had.
AND unlike the new machines---the KAid uses water to clean the dishes----what a concept.
SteveT sounds like he knows his stuff when it comes to KAid. Thanks for the tutorial.
Best wishes!
NOTHING at any price these days is leaving the factory with a quality level as high as KAID had.
AND unlike the new machines---the KAid uses water to clean the dishes----what a concept.
SteveT sounds like he knows his stuff when it comes to KAid. Thanks for the tutorial.
Best wishes!
I wish KA was still KA
They were fascinating!
As for the European machines not having a heated dry - this is not entirely true, some do.
There is another factor at hand here which the earliest US dishwashers also had to deal with. The heating element is not and has not been a loop in the bottom of the tub for many decades. It is a high efficiency flow through heater which, obviously, only heats the water and can't be used to heat the air. Some machines use forced air drying with an extra air-heating element, most - like mine - just use forced air. Seeing as how the last rinse is done at about 175-180°F, it is not hard to see why things come out dry.
And yes, European machines are built in the specific assumption that a rinse agent will be used.
Of course, some things just plain stack so that there is going to be enough water left in them at the end of the cycle that nothing will dry it.
I'd rather have the extra few inches of space in the machine, the longetivity and reliability and not have to worry about that stupid "top rack only" nonsense.
They were fascinating!
As for the European machines not having a heated dry - this is not entirely true, some do.
There is another factor at hand here which the earliest US dishwashers also had to deal with. The heating element is not and has not been a loop in the bottom of the tub for many decades. It is a high efficiency flow through heater which, obviously, only heats the water and can't be used to heat the air. Some machines use forced air drying with an extra air-heating element, most - like mine - just use forced air. Seeing as how the last rinse is done at about 175-180°F, it is not hard to see why things come out dry.
And yes, European machines are built in the specific assumption that a rinse agent will be used.
Of course, some things just plain stack so that there is going to be enough water left in them at the end of the cycle that nothing will dry it.
I'd rather have the extra few inches of space in the machine, the longetivity and reliability and not have to worry about that stupid "top rack only" nonsense.
Reply to Stevet
Steve, again, thanks. No, the heating element was not red when I opened the door and there was no water in the tank. All appeared normal, except for the unusually long Sani Heat - Rinse cycle and the beginning of an electrical burning smell. (Reminded me of the times as a kid I'd burn out a small resistor in one of my early home-built Ham rigs.) Nothing was melted.
I suppose it couldn't hurt to simply replace the thermostat, given its low cost, and see what happens. Early in my research, I came across a couple of pages with photos showing how to disassemble the machine, but I can't find them now. If you happen to have a link, I would much appreciate taking a look.
I have a background in electronics and a VOM I've owned for decades, but generally my experience has been that the least expensive way to fix anything is to hire someone who knows what he's doing.
Regarding the side discussion here about the machine's drying ability, I've never had a reason to complain. Dishes and glassware come out dry and spot-free using nothing more than generic dishwasher cleaner, even in my hard water. There may be a couple of drops of water left if something with an indentation is upside-down in the upper rack, but that's about it. This is definitely a machine worth saving. I took it for granted as just another kitchen appliance until I went shopping for a new one and found out how cheaply made the $1,000 units are.
Steve, again, thanks. No, the heating element was not red when I opened the door and there was no water in the tank. All appeared normal, except for the unusually long Sani Heat - Rinse cycle and the beginning of an electrical burning smell. (Reminded me of the times as a kid I'd burn out a small resistor in one of my early home-built Ham rigs.) Nothing was melted.
I suppose it couldn't hurt to simply replace the thermostat, given its low cost, and see what happens. Early in my research, I came across a couple of pages with photos showing how to disassemble the machine, but I can't find them now. If you happen to have a link, I would much appreciate taking a look.
I have a background in electronics and a VOM I've owned for decades, but generally my experience has been that the least expensive way to fix anything is to hire someone who knows what he's doing.
Regarding the side discussion here about the machine's drying ability, I've never had a reason to complain. Dishes and glassware come out dry and spot-free using nothing more than generic dishwasher cleaner, even in my hard water. There may be a couple of drops of water left if something with an indentation is upside-down in the upper rack, but that's about it. This is definitely a machine worth saving. I took it for granted as just another kitchen appliance until I went shopping for a new one and found out how cheaply made the $1,000 units are.
spankomatic
Well-known member
What's burning?
Where there is smoke there if fire! Need to find out what is smoking. Look for melted wires or parts for safety. I agree keep it as long as you can. They don't make them that good anymore. I have always liked the racks for loading on those models. They have some pretty good appliance repair guys down there in Santa Cruz.
Jim
Where there is smoke there if fire! Need to find out what is smoking. Look for melted wires or parts for safety. I agree keep it as long as you can. They don't make them that good anymore. I have always liked the racks for loading on those models. They have some pretty good appliance repair guys down there in Santa Cruz.
Jim
stevet
Well-known member
Smoke and mirrors?
Tony, I have to admit that I cooked my element in my KDS19 a few months ago, prior to the timer taking a trip to the afterlife. One had nothing to do with the other but I did have a nasty odor coming from the unit for a long time. Never went back on the dishes or pots and pans.
Just for the record, it is our spare, or overload machine and is hooked up in my garage to my slop sink faucet. I turned it on and forgot to turn on the faucet so it started getting nice and toasty during the first fill's heating cycle. I got to it before the hi limit kicked it off and had to wait for the element to cool down before adding water to it. No damage was done and it worked like a charm after the incident.
If you are sure there has been no damage as far as anything being burned like wires and such as Spankomatic suggested above, What I will offer to you is the thermostats for the heaters which include the hi limit and the sani thermostat as I have to get rid of the machine and figured it would be good to part out if people need the parts since most of them are no longer available.
Let me know if you want to make a deal before I stick them on EBAY.
Tony, I have to admit that I cooked my element in my KDS19 a few months ago, prior to the timer taking a trip to the afterlife. One had nothing to do with the other but I did have a nasty odor coming from the unit for a long time. Never went back on the dishes or pots and pans.
Just for the record, it is our spare, or overload machine and is hooked up in my garage to my slop sink faucet. I turned it on and forgot to turn on the faucet so it started getting nice and toasty during the first fill's heating cycle. I got to it before the hi limit kicked it off and had to wait for the element to cool down before adding water to it. No damage was done and it worked like a charm after the incident.
If you are sure there has been no damage as far as anything being burned like wires and such as Spankomatic suggested above, What I will offer to you is the thermostats for the heaters which include the hi limit and the sani thermostat as I have to get rid of the machine and figured it would be good to part out if people need the parts since most of them are no longer available.
Let me know if you want to make a deal before I stick them on EBAY.
SteveT
This is all really good information since I'll be picking up that KDS19 from Patrick in a couple of weeks. I know he said the heater fan no longer works in it and will need to be repaired or replaced. I think otherwise he said it works fine. I hope it will be a good machine for us in the new house. I certainly can't wait to have it!!!
This is all really good information since I'll be picking up that KDS19 from Patrick in a couple of weeks. I know he said the heater fan no longer works in it and will need to be repaired or replaced. I think otherwise he said it works fine. I hope it will be a good machine for us in the new house. I certainly can't wait to have it!!!
