Let's Talk About Heating Shall We?

[wayupnorth]

I have my grandfather's caboose pot belly stove I used for many years, he was an engineer on the RR and must have had the right connections to get it. He always started with kindling and my cousin said why not use charcoal to get anthracite going. So much easier, It really, really worked, LOL. I bet coal is cheaper than this outrageous propane now, but propane is even easier. Heat radiates from the bottom where the fire is with coal. Flue to chimney is not very warm and no worry about a lined chimney, no chimney fire from coal. Just nothing combustible anywhere near it when going.

 

[ilovewindex]

Thought i would throw this out there (Im a lurker but felt compelled to add this, as this has been a learning lesson)

I've grown up and lived all over and had mostly Heat Pumps... House growing up was a Heil from 1993, house before was an 85 Trane..... Briefly as a baby we had an oil floor furnace.. Its then been 2 Coleman Heat Pumps a really Ghetto Carrier unit (in an apartment), A tempstar, and a Lennox.. Then living in the SW i had just a Gas Furnace and Window shakers... Here, I had a forced air electric furnace (ie: hair dryer on steriods) from lennox that was put in when the place was built (1978)

That SOB cost me $2000 in electric during the course of November, Decemeber and January of this year because something shorted out and one of the coils stayed live 24/7... The ductwork leaked and it was held together with alumnium tape.. Didn't even have a filter.. The thermostat was in the coldest part of the down stairs and it just sucked.. And it was SO LOUD.. Found out later they used parts of the joist runs as ducts.. SO not ok

PGE and the Oregon Energery Council where/are handing out rebates for Ductless Heatpumps and I bit the buillt. January 27th, 2015, I had a new Daikn Ductless Heat Pump Put in.. $4200 out lay and $2200 in rebates...

My house is a Tri level loft style town house, where 3/4 of it is open to everything else, just on different levels.. I only had one "head" unit installed and it so far has been awesome... I need to get the Skylight upstairs replaced and re insulated and then the ac will reach upstairs better...

If i had a head put in each room it would be even better, but that was just too much ($1800 per room).. I didn't go for a regular heatpump because the darn ductwork is shot and i figured "Ehhh, its the cheapest option, lets try"

The front bedroom gets a tad chillier than the others but a space heater takes the chill away... I run it 24/7 in fan mode and keep the bedroom windows cracked..... We set the heat at 65 and the a/c at 67 (yes we like it cold)... We do use a ductless window ac unit in the master to supplment it and I think in time I'll add a second head up stairs in the hall... The one downside is the doors gotta be open and my roommate hates that, but oh well..

Its quiet, simple and cheap and well built, so I am happy

My avg bill now is $120 or so during heavy useage

Steam heat was very seldom ever seen where I grew up, except in our Middle School and man did it suck butt.. One house had that Cable heat in the celing and it hardly worked.. Gas is ok, but I am afraid it blowing up.. Same with boilers.. If I had to it would be Gas forced air or my choice, a high efficency heat pump

 

[norgeway]

SPEAKING OF HEATING

I just spent 2 hours tearing the furnace apart and cleaning and servicing it, It is a 10 or 15 year old Bard oil furnace, not my pick, but its ok, I just did a routine oil filter nozzle change on it last year, but noticed some back pressure at the inspection door toward the end of the heating season, so I knew it needed a real cleaning, I took the cleanout ports off and vacuumed the heat exchanger out ,it was partially stopped up, but not as bad as I thought, I got about 2 gallons of soot or so out of it, when I took the smokepipe down I was astounded, it was about half full of soot, after taking it to the woods and dumping that out, I raked another 2 gallons out of the chimney, put it all back together and now I have a good strong overfire draft and a zero smoke reading with my smoke gun, I believe its good to go ...I also changed the oil filter and nozzle again, it seems to start and stop much smoother now...a Thermo Pride its not, but it should work another few years..

 

[wayupnorth]

I change my oil burner nozzel about twice a year because mine runs for hot water year round. You can tell when it rumbles and delays to start. I have a Tjernand? Side Shot that vents directly threw the concrete wall, no chimney. My furnace guy says mine has one of the best looking combustion chambers, snow white. The Side Shot has done it for going on 21 years now. Now if it can keep going, I will be real happy.

 

[sudsmaster]

The temps here are still in the 70's or higher during the days, so far from having to turn on the furnace, I'm simply gradually closing windows that have been open since spring for cooling.

 

With El Niño on the way, we're supposed to have a wetter winter. This means more nights when the local air quality board allows wood fires in fireplaces. I've got a fair amount of firewood stockpiled, and plan on tidying up the area around the two fireplaces with inserts to prepare to use them more this winter (didn't use them at all last winter). They don't heat the house as well as the gas forced air furnace, but they do provide a wonderful ambiance.

 

Meanwhile I'm focusing on getting some last minute outdoor painting done before the damp sets in.

 

I remember some past winters when we had rain non-stop for weeks. There were even news stories about a rise in mental depression complaints due to the gloomy weather. That's when a fireplace comes in handy ;-)...

 

I will be firing up the furnace soon just to clear the dust out of the system and make sure it's running ok. Already changed the filters.

 

 

 

[dustin92]

Haven't had heat on in a few days now, it has been around 70 with low 60's-upper 50's at night... Hit 78 today, I already miss summer! I want to take the wood insert out of our fireplace and just use it open.. The insert really doesn't heat that great and it really gunks up the chimney.. Only has two small windows that blacken quickly so no real ambiance, and it's nearly 30 years old so just used up.

 

[gusherb]

Well just as planned I turned the A/C on today (Tuesday). And then it looks like the heat will be on by the end of the weekend. That's not really unusual for this time a year. The heating season this year should be real cheap with the El Niño going on, and super insanely low natural gas prices. I won't feel even the slightest guilt about keeping the house comfortable at all times this winter.

 

[jerrod6]

It was 35F around here Monday morning, so I turned the heater on and let it run once just to test it and make sure it worked.  Looking at the forecast it seems like it will be in the 60's every day until November 21, so I think that in the second week of November I will start to run the heater once in the morning and that's it. Around november 29 it looks like it will top out in the 50's and drop into the 30's at night and that's when I will leave the heating system set to run full time. 

 

I have two electric space heaters and in the month of November it is cheaper to run them in the room I am in than running the furnace to heat the entire house.

 

I know I sound cheap...but I would rather use my money to buy other things for me,  than give it to a utility company for using central heat when I can be comfortable another way.  Of Course when it gets really cold I will run the system to heat the entire house...but even then I only want to give my utility company as little money as I can get away with. 

 

[gusherb]

Around here gas is so cheap that it's cheaper to heat the whole house then it is to run an electric space heater in one room in order to take the edge off.

 

[askolover]

same here!

 

[artcurus]

Am the only that thinks those ductless units are ugly as sin? They have their place, no question about it, and usually do work very well. However, there's no way in Hell I would put on in a room that I want fix up really nice.

 

[davey7]

In Japan....

They often build the splitless units into cabinetry with louvers or a relatively open grill concealing them. You can also get units that tuck up into the ceiling between joists or like a mini-ducted system for one or two rooms (I've considered that for my living and dining rooms as I have a closet that could conceal the unit, however, the condenser outside would be the problem).

 

[warmsecondrinse]

I don't think they're any more or less ugly than radiators. It all depends on the design. I am puzzled by one thing, though. For a/c one would want them mounted right up near the ceiling, as most are. However, for heat one would want the units mounted near the floor.

Having the heat source up high contributes to temperature stratification. I used to work in a bank built on a concrete slab and had heat coming down from the ceiling a/c vents. The result was most unpleasant; feet were frozen solid while sweat was dripping from our brows.

Has anyone had this problem?

Jim

 

[cfz2882]

mini split airflow

with the Mitsubishi MrSlim, the outlet louvers position differently for heat or cool modes-directs at the floor for heat,outward for cooling.I have seen some mr slim indoors mounted lower on the wall when heating performance was given priority.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Ok, that would make a difference. Thanks.

Now that I've thought about it, it can't be that critical an issue else they wouldn't be selling as primary heat.

Jim

 

[jerrod6]

It might be critical depending on the size and characteristics of the rooms.  When I took my first apartment it was heated by hot water radiators in the rooms.  Every room had a 13 foot ceiling and the living and the one bedroom was 25 feet by 25 feet.  On top of this there were many tall windows in the place one room had 3 of them.  The radiators heated the space very well.

 

A few years later each apartment was converted to forced air heating with AC.  My vents where high in the walls.  It was great for AC and absolutely terrible for heat. Even when the vents were pointed downward the heat would fall  slightly downward and quickly rise to the ceiling.  It was 63F when you sat down and 85F on the ceiling.  The contractor replaced the heater with a larger one with a stronger blower.  All this did was create a wind tunnel in the place and it was still cold,  63F sitting down  85F near the ceiling with paper weights holding down light items so they didn't become airborne.  This situation led me to find another place to live. 

 

My next place had a heat pump with the heat vents in the ceiling but spaced across it.  The ceilings were lower and this did an all right job of heating and a wonderful job of cooling.  

 

So there are trade offs. 

 

My current house has forced air heating with most  rooms having vents in the floor along the outside wall.  It is great for heating and very good for cooling because the vents point the air directly up so that it hits the ceiling and moves across to the other side of the room. The other other thing that helps is that every room has an air return in the ceiling and larger rooms have two.  This keeps the air moving and  slowly circulating throughout each room  so that I have acceptable summer temperatures on the upper floors of the house and sometimes have the upper level bedrooms colder than the living room on the first floor.

 

So I think it depends on the design of the system and the characteristics of the structure.

 

[whirlcool]

Some friends of ours have a very large home that has a den with a three story tall ceiling in it. One each of the three levels going up the walls are open to the rooms on each floor. The effect is that you feel like you are in Grand Central or Union Station train station. The house is zoned into five zones.

As described above, in the summer the den is cold but the open floors above are hot. The zone that cools the den may be off, and the zone that runs the third floor is always in constant run mode.

These people have had countless heating a/c contractors over to try to fix this and they have been charged thousands of dollars with no improvement. The first guy told them that the house has a unique architectural design and that's causing the problem. Which is true. When they had the house designed they claimed that the architect didn't tell them this would happen.

In the mean time, they have added vents, added media filters, added suspended ceiling fans all over the place, replaced and added new duct work, new "magic thermostats" that will take care of the problem, but the problem persists. Now another contractor is telling them they have to increase the capacity of the den zone. $6,000. And of course they are standing by with their checkbook open.

They just can't seen to understand how the design of the house is causing all these problems! It's stratification city in there!

 

[washman]

The union made Goodman furnace

has been cycling more and more, especially at night when the temps drop. This is my first rodeo with a 96% AFUE unit. I am excited about having hopefully lower gas bills this winter.

 

[gusherb]

When a house gets to be more than average or traditional layout, a mechanical engineer should be hired to design the HVAC. A typical HVAC contractor isn't gonna have enough understanding of how things work to ever get a house designed like a train station (or like some malls I've been in) to work properly and be comfortable. Commercial buildings are built like that all the time and they don't usually have problems like that because the system was designed right.
Obviously with everything wide open to the top floor, the higher the floor, the more capacity you're gonna need. The highest floor is pretty much gonna need enough cooling capacity to cool the entire house, because that's exactly what it will be doing. The other floors will just need enough to temper things, while the top floor does all the work. And that means much larger ductwork for the top floor as well. Thermostat placement, return and supply placement are hugely critical in cases like this. I bet there was zero thought about that when the system was originally put in.

The situation needs to be looked at like a commercial job, and once it does (involving the right design and execution), then maybe they'll be able to get the issue fixed. One of my pet peeves to home design is actually having floors all open to each other like that, and for that very reason. And because then it usually becomes an HVAC nightmare because nobody understands the thermal characteristics for those situations at all, or enough to actually get things to work right.

 

[jerrod6]

Second what Gusherb says

I am gonna agree with this, because when I was talking about replacing my system one of my neighbors walked over and mentioned to be sure the contractor understood about the duct sizing in the house.  My eyes glazed over.   It turns out that it has commercial size ducts running through the basement and walls.  I saw these large pipes in the basement but didn't think anything about them.   These pipes are capable of carrying a lot more air than typical house size ducts, so the volume of air, plus placement of ducts and return ducts to remove air and return it to the system plays a large part in the comfort you will receive. 

 

One other thing I forgot to mention about my return ducts is that they are present in every hallway on each floor of the house as well as the top of every stairway so this helps with stratification.  I did some research and found out that the architect that designed my house also designed high rise condos in my neighborhood. 

 

Everytime I see homes with large ceilings open to the second and third floor all I can think of is comfort problems and gigantic bills.  They look wonderful, and castles had them too--and life was hard.