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Electric baseboard

It's funny that some are preferring the stuff. I've always hated it because it usually reaks of burning dust the first time you turn it on in awhile, plus the idea of electric resistance heating has never sat well with me because to me electric resistance = electrical fire. I'm not really afraid of it anymore though.
What I don't like now is that it costs a fortune to run compared to just about anything else.

My sister rents a two story duplex in Colorado, built in the early 80s on the cheap, and it has baseboard heat throughout. The first winter they were being frugal and still had a $350 power bill for January. Now they're even more frugal with it and have kept it no higher than $300. They also had a warm winter last year so they didn't need a lot of heat. This year it's supposed to be real snowy in CO so they probably won't get off easy now, plus they have a baby now. So comfort will be more priority now. My sister inquired to the landlady about inquiring to the gas company if gas service even ran past the building and apparently the answer was no, but the house just a few places down on the corner has natural gas. If they could heat with natural gas, they could keep the whole place 70 degrees all the time and not pay more then $150 a month to do so.
Also by comparison, our house is 3 times the size of theirs, heated with natural gas and kept at 70 all the time and our bill is still lower then what they pay in electric.

It's funny to me when I hear someone's reaction to the idea of gas appliances that hasn't lived with them their whole life. They seem to think they'll explode or kill you with CO. In reality electric or gas could kill you. What keeps it all safe is proper installation, and performing preventative maintenance routinely.
 
What can kill

are hack jobs. HVAC units put in by my ex sister in law's brother who knew this guy who was in prison for 4 years that used to date the cousin's wife but then shacked up with my great aunt who went to school with this guy who ran a shrimp shack business..............et cetera.

Amazing on youtube how many hack jobs you can find. It's a small wonder these units work at all, much less in a safe manor.
 
RE Electric baseboard heat..

I will say it again, I love gas and oil heat.....but the cheapest most reliable heat ever devised is electric baseboard or ceiling cable radiant.....Now before anyone starts yelling, think about this, I know of MANY houses that have these types of heating, that were built in the 50s and 60s that have never had one service call, No dust, no drafts and no upkeep, Yes, they will cost more to run, but when you factor in all the service calls and repairs plus replacement of furnaces every so many years, electric is the very cheapest way to go, and if you are not comfortable with it, it wasn't installed correctly,My Uncle is a retired electrical contractor who installed many such systems in his over 60 years of working, he always said that if you were cold with electric heat it was not sized correctly, he always put in Hunter or Chromalox baseboard units and Honeywell thermostats, another great thing about it is you can control each room individually.
 
I would calculate the cost differences very carefully between electric baseboard and gas forced air and over varying timespans - like 10 years and then on a 20-40 year scale. Over a 10-15 year span gas forced air will be by and large the immensely cheaper option. But once you start factoring in replacement on the 15 year mark is where it would start to get interesting. I think a typical full system replacement for a gas furnace and air conditioner is average around $6,000. And then you'll have to do that all over again at the 30 year mark. Without running any numbers my guess is that gas will still come out to be cheaper in the long run with the way electric rates keep rising and continue to for the foreseeable future. But this will all vary on locale, rate changes in the future, and fuel availability. If natural gas spikes then electric baseboard might prove to be cheaper in the long run.
 
I grew up with foreced air heat

save for 13 years in a ratty mobile home that we heated with a wood stove. Main reason was the $*#*@&#&$* POS Interthem oil furnace that was a nightmare from day 1.

That put me off oil furnaces in general and Intertherm in particular.

OTOH, the Hutch Rebel plate steel stove was a peach. No matter how cold it got , we could always toss another log on the fire.
 
The electric baseboards in my house were sized correctly. Even if the thermostat on the wall read 72 F I still felt cold....electric heat is just a different kind of heat just as wood heat is a totally different heat compared to forced air.
 
We had a condo one time that had electric baseboard heat in each room. You could turn on and off each room as needed. So we could keep the bedrooms cooler than the living room, very comfortable. If I remember it wasn't that expensive to run. But then again that was in the late 70's.
It even had a heater in the bathroom, so you could prewarm that room before showering. Very nice!
 
Electric Heat

Baseboard or PTAC isn't for everyone. Much depends upon the climate and electric rates.

Perhaps in more temperate parts of the country where temps do not go below say 30F for several months of the year electric could work. But am here to tell you NYC isn't one of those places and with our high electric rates electric as sole heat source is either rare or cursed.

While baseboards aren't common PTAC units are becoming more and more as builders of new developments seek to cut costs of owning/running new units. Switching to electric heat provided individual apartments are paying for it themselves takes the cost of heating off the plate for landlord. OTOH if you are the one living in such unit you'll have to make decisions about what to budget for heat.

For various reasons steam/hot water heating is phasing out of new apartment construction in NYC. Many of those new glass and sheetrock towers either have PTAC units or central forced air. The appeal of central forced air is obvious in that the same system can deliver AC and or be used to filter and control moisture levels. Some really high end buildings have radiant heating systems say in the bathroom floors to keep that room toasty even when the rest of heating system is off.

https://heatinghelp.com/blog/nyc-one-pipe-steam/

http://cooperator.com/article/is-your-building-wasting-energy

http://cooperator.com/article/heat-without-hassles
 
Chicago is way ahead on the "separating utilities" trend. New residential high rises built since the 70s have been getting their own HVAC systems, and converting from hydronic to separated forced air in smaller apartment buildings has been the norm for the last 15 years at least. High rises tend to use water source heat pumps, which means it can be placed anywhere in the unit and then a tempered water loop circulates through the building collecting the waste from the heat pumps. They usually have a boiler and cooling tower to control the loop temp and then the unit owner pays the cost of running the heat pump itself.

PTAC's being used in place of central heating are usually the heat pump variant as well, so they're more efficient then resistance heat. They do have electric heat strips in them for backup though.

In Chicago today, it's becoming increasingly hard to find buildings that continue to use hydronic heating with cast iron radiators. The ones that still do use it are usually dilapidated and in need of serious renovations. Some places have a hybrid setup, like my dads building. The apartments continue to use the original hot water heat system original from 1915, and the business has forced air. Retrofitting the apartments with forced air would be very intrusive into the living space and probably require heavy renovations and/or lowering the ceiling to get ductwork in, and floor space would be lost wherever the furnace ends up being placed.
 
>If natural gas spikes then electric baseboard might prove to be cheaper in the long run.

And it is entirely possible for gas rates to spike.

One nightmare: one issue that typically gets considered when selecting a heating system is fuel cost. And that is gambling that over the long haul the cost remains reasonable...

The house I grew up in was a good example of a gamble that probably didn't quite work out as planned. It was heated by oil up to the early 1970s. Then the house got converted to electric--presumably because of the energy crisis of the 1970s, coupled with dirt cheap electric rates. This meant both a new furnace, and some baseboard heaters. And also the electric service might have been upgraded.

And after all this, at some point the electric rates started going up. Maybe even by the end of the 1970s. I know my parents were conscious ca. 1980 of heating costs. I don't know what happened to oil costs, but I do recall gasoline costs dropping in the early 80s, and I assume heating oil probably was suddenly more attractive than it had been a few years before. It would be interesting to know if my parents would have been better off in the 80s if the house till used oil. It would also be interesting to know what the total long term costs of electric conversion/running might have been vs. the old oil system.

One thing I do know: from what I saw of the outside of that house in recent history, it looks like a woodstove got added at some point, and I can't imagine it was added for ambiance. (There are--or were--two fireplaces for that job.) Wood heat would almost certainly be a cold, hard pragmatic move to fight the cost of electric forced air.

That house's electric conversion also brings up another point that should be considered. Even if electric did turn out to be overall cheaper long haul, I'm guessing it's highly unlikely that there was any payback for the family who did the conversion. That family probably moved a couple of years after the conversion. Which brings up another payback issue that probably should always be considered: how long is someone likely to stay in a house? Will the cost of the new equipment be paid off? Will it help the house's resale value, and how much?
 
Interestingly, Norway, which is generally a bit colder than the US, is nearly 100% electric, heating-wise. AND it's cheaper to heat with electricity than wood there, believe it or not (cheap hydro power). Houses, at least newer houses, are better insulated than the US norm, but not as well as their neighbor to the east. In Sweden district (hot water) heating has something like 70% penetration with the balance (this is residential heating, both single and multi-family) being oil, direct electric or various heat pump systems.

Ground source is popular as is, especially in new construction, exhaust air heat pumps - keep in mind these houses get about 2/3 of their heating needs met by body heat, appliance heat and body heat and these are not solar or passive houses by any means (in fact, Sweden was one of the only countries where the residential response to the energy crises was weatherstrip and insulate rather than turn down the thermostat - of course, double-glazing was already universal by 1900 and the tile stove is pretty wood stingy - average indoor temp is just over 70 in winter). Electric only heat isn't desirable there - it was pushed heavily in the early 70's when power was cheap (heavy nuclear investments and less hydro than Norway) and the basic under window panels (no baseboard to be seen) have usually been replaced with oil filled radiators or other hydronic/heat pump heat.
 
Home resale value

Cannot speak to electric or whatever other source of fuel affecting the price of an existing home. But do know if it is heated with an oil burning boiler here in the NYC area that *can* affect the price and or even kill the deal.

Due to stricter environmental laws/controls the big worry is about oil tanks. If they are buried (as many are in the Northeast) and have been leaking then whomever owns the home is left holding the bag (and bill).

Even when a home now has say tanks in the basement that does not mean previously they weren't located outdoors underground. A seller may not even be aware they are there, and or will say "oh we had them disconnected and filled in". Well he may have done the latter but if they leaked for years before. That and not all oil and sludge were removed....
 
>Due to stricter environmental laws/controls the big worry is about oil tanks. If they are buried (as many are in the Northeast) and have been leaking then whomever owns the home is left holding the bag (and bill).

And oil tanks was one topic of conversation that cropped up when the house I grew up in when on the market. It had buried tanks, and there was the concern about soil contamination. I remember commenting that it seemed puzzling, because the tanks were apparently empty, and I was told that made it a huge worry:t he empty tank could rust, and there could easily be enough oil left to leak out and contaminate the soil. Fortunately, the mortgage company was happy enough just having a quick inspection. The buyer got someone he knew in the oil business out, and the guy took a very fast look, and that was that.

Another fuss: the old oil furnaces were still in the house. One was buried behind the water heater, and one was under the house. It probably didn't seem worthwhile removing either when the house was converted to electric (and the one behind the water heater would probably require the water heater to come out--so why not just say: "I'll remove it whenever the water heater needs to be replaced.) And who really cares if a furnace is collecting dust in the crawlspace? Who, except the mortgage company of course. So the oil tank guy went and looked at the oil furnace behind the water heater, and said it looked like it was all there. If necessary, he said, it could probably be fired up with a small jug of oil just to see if it would run. Fortunately, the mortgage company was happy with the visual inspection.

I wonder now how much dust would have gotten blown out had that furnace turned on for the first time in 15+ years? The entire system was probably intact, but totally inactive (the ducts weren't used since that part of the house had baseboard heaters put in).
 
Norway

Yes, I can vouch and say the majority of the heating over there is accomplished *electrically*.

This includes water heating, home-heating, cooking and the usual European style with Dishwashers and Washers alike. 

 

Newer houses use in-floor radiant heating (I haven't heard of boilers myself, but am sure its possible) or sometimes forced-air minisplits - which is surprising, given that people suggest they become ineffective below about freezing, and Norway's winter is usually well below freezing...

 

Older houses use wall-mounted radiator systems with 4-5 different wattage settings. 

 

Commercial buildings (i.e. hotels) often have a blend of forced air for fresh air exchange (whodathunkit?), then they have a hot water loop connecting to a large radiator in the room controlled by a bimetal thermostat nearby. 

 

Most people I've spoken to dislike the hideous cost associated with all these heating doodads. I know one who has infloor radiant heat throughout, but refuses to use it on cost grounds.

Instead, he makes careful use of the fireplace in the basement and ground floor and that works exceptionally well (There is also the dislike of making "an oven." It seems a Norwegian "tradition is sleeping with your bedroom window open in the middle of a freezing winter, without the heat on!)

 

Gas is not more popular because the Norwegian population, aside from city areas, is very low density. We're talking semi-rural and very mountainous terrain. So installing gas would probably be cost prohibitive. Funnily enough, Norway is a large producer and exporter of oil and gas. YET, their fuel prices are easily double that of Australia, who imports the majority of their oil (but not so much gas). 
 
Old Furnaces

As mentioned previously you'll find many in both domestic and commercial buildings currently in use.

In some if not all cases the things went into the structure before the walls went up soon as foundations pretty much were laid. Then you can have things that were built around them since. Either way getting them out would require either cutting apart and bringing out in bits. That or perhaps making an opening in wall or somewhere large enough to get the thing out.

Scrappers tend to leave boilers alone because they usually do not have any copper. Maybe other types furnaces or water heaters could be another story
 
tradition is sleeping with your bedroom window open ..

That is actually how one prefers to sleep. Windows open, heat off and under a eiderdown! Can't beat it! Of course getting out of bed the next morning or at anytime during the night is a bit of a challenge. *LOL* Soon as you put a leg or arm from under the duvet you realize how freezing the room/house is.

Growing up had an older family member (aunt) who was very old school. She turned off the boilers at night. Not turn the heat down, but shut off the boiler. As one can imagine myself and the cousins were *NOT* thrilled at having to spend nights there during the winter. You woke up to a house that was freezing. Odd that one should prefer sleeping that way now...

Read somewhere that sleeping in a cool room is actually better for one's health. However cold does slow down the body's circulation. Operating rooms are kept chilly for that purpose among others. It is one reason why post-op wards are loaded with blankets.
 
Safety gas vs electric

I remember back in the 80's our local mall in Alabama had an energy expo with all types of vendors.  The gas company had pamphlets saying that gas was much safer than electricity because you would smell a leak long before there was enough to explode but electricity is silent and lurks inside the walls or attic and all it takes is a mouse causing a frayed wire to start a fire.  Didn't mention anything about carbon monoxide poisoning though.  I'm inclined to agree to an extent.  I remember once when I was pretty young, my dad worked 4-12 shift and my sister was at a friends house.  We had just had the furnace serviced.  It was about 10pm and Mother and I were about to go to bed.  She called me into her bedroom saying "I smell gas"!  I got down close to the vent in their room as it was right off the furnace under the house and I smelled it too.  We were both nervous and she really didn't know how to turn it off...but I did as Daddy had shown me.  So, here we go outside in pajamas and coats with flashlights and a wrench and I just turned it all off. 

Fast forward to 2015.....I got up one evening (work nights) and just as I approached my door, I smelled gas.  Apparently Tony had leaned up against one of the knobs on the range and turned it just enough to release the gas but not spark.  The whole house smelled, but nothing came of it.  Both times the odor was pretty strong...and that old furnace had a standing pilot...but it didn't explode. 

 

On the other hand......I can't tell you how many homes I've heard or read about where the electrical system started the fire.  My uncle's house burned to the ground from an electrical problem.  Several houses in his vicinity had melted wires and fried appliances at the same time his house burned.  The power company had been working on the system around there, don't know what they did to it.

Tony's mother's house caught fire when he was younger and still living at home.  He was in the shower, the fire started in the kitchen from some problem in the wiring.  He said he heard the smoke alarm and took off running out of the house wearing nothing but a towel.  The house was saved, just smoked everything.

 

Back in 2000 or so, gas prices did spike...it wasn't unusual for people even here to have $300-$400 gas bills.  That was before I had signed up for the bill averaging where a person pays pretty much the same amount each month based on the previous year's usage with minimal fluctuations month to month.  I just bought a 240V electric fan forced heater and cut the gas furnace back.  That was the ONLY time electricity was cheaper than gas here.  It didn't take long to return to normal and now gas is super cheap again.

 

My old furnace had a cracked heat exchanger.  It was a miracle I found it before it found me dead, but it still didn't turn me off of gas.  I now have multiple CO detectors in the house.  The replacement package furnace has stainless heat exchangers with lifetime warranty.
 
With a modern furnace it would require a "perfect storm" for it to ever leak CO. For starters they all have induced draft blowers which always puts the heat exchanger into a negative pressure, so if there were to be a small crack it would just pull air in. If it were to ever leak exhaust out Into the living space it would have to be a gaping hole in the HX by that point. And if there were a gaping hole in the HX, the flames would start rolling out and trigger the flame rollout cutoff. Secondly, even if exhaust gases did leak into the living space, the burners would have to be way out of adjustment for the furnace to even produce any harmful levels of CO. So technically speaking, if the gas valve were adjusted correctly and it was only producing about 5 PPM of CO, it could exhaust right into the house and not put anyone's life in danger. A gas oven produces FAR more CO then that.

Older natural draft furnaces are more susceptible to spilling exhaust into the airstream, though detecting a cracked HX is easier because once the blower kicks on it would pressurize the HX causing a flame rollout.
 
I caught it

while cleaning the house.  I was down cleaning baseboards in the living room by the vent that is first off the furnace.  It had just cut off and I smelled that faint whiff of mercaptan come through the vent.  I turned the Tstat so it would come back on and went outside.  It had a window so one could see the combustion chambers.  It had some flame rollout but didn't trip.  I knew it was condemned to death.  The furnace man came out with a flexible mirror and we looked up inside and could see the cracks.  It was around 15 years old, but it was a cheap Weatherking BOL, very inefficient but cold AC.  Hope this 15 year old Goodman Amana keeps going.
 

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