Life with the GE Profile DW, 2016

[johnb300m]

I think you're right, Andrew, it was doing a cold water purge and then a sensing mode. I just don't know why it alternated the racks so quickly....
The top X arm fully runs at once, along with the top rinse arm and (now I'm assuming) the bottle jets. You're also right, it seems like a LOT of space to fill with water between the x-arm, the conduit, the top arm and bottle jets. In fact, the post-wash rinses must be partial fills, because there's a lot of cavitation in the rinses beside the main wash and final rinse. However, with the pump starving for water, it still sounds like there's a lot of pressure up there, because the bottle jets still make a lot of noise spraying on the ceiling.
The water softener IS working better recently! It's still not "soft" but it's probably on par with Lake Michigan water now.
I'm going to get some more Finish Quantum tabs, since I had great luck with those in the past, and I'm almost out of Seventh Generation (which is 'okay').

Joey, you make a good point too. I might stick to the programmed cycles more, since the sensor runs in those anyway! The soil sensor is up front, and I can see it glowing under the kick plate when the kitchen is all dark
If I use AutoSense again, I'll limit it to a more normal load without soiled cookware. Looks like cookware really needs the Heavy cycle.

I gotta try that Steam function out too! Next time.
And I'll try to take video inside as well!

 

[tgm8000]

Love my Ge PDT720

I have been using this dishwasher since april and love it. I have never had anything come out dirty. I am amazed evertime I open the door to unload it. I only use the auto sense cycle as it uses more water then the normal cycle. Yes it makes alot of strange noises when it senses in the beginning. I always use boost wash temp and heated dry. This is the first dishwaher that I was able to get large cookie sheets all across the bottom rack without hitting the spray arm.

 

[frigilux]

John-- I've never used the AutoSense cycle and after seeing your results, it's probably just as well I haven't. The worst cooked-on grime on pots / pans never fails to be vanquished on the Heavy cycle. I have softened water and keep my tap temp in the lower 130's. I use Sam's Club pacs on some loads and Cascade Platinum pacs on others. I have no complaints about cleaning with the 750.

Your description of the machine's altered behavior on the AutoSense cycle is intriguing. I may try it just to see if the 750 does the same thing.

 

[washman]

I never used the autosense

cycle on the unit at the condo. And I had to clean that darn filter every 3rd load otherwise stuff on top rack would never come clean.

And like others noted, drying was abysmal at best.

 

[murando531]

I'd be interested in knowing how the manufacturers program their auto sensing cycles. I wonder how they decide what soil reading warrants what cycle time and how many water changes and temp and so on. The Whirlpool hasn't disappointed with its Sensor cycle, but so far its choices with cycle behavior put it somewhere more aggressive than Normal but not as intense as Heavy. Even the manual states that the minimum water use is about a gallon or so more than Normal. I wonder if GE programs theirs to lean towards a lighter cycle whenever it sees a chance.

 

[henene4]

AutoSense

I can only imagine that the manufacturers run different load types on given appropiate cycles, then measure what the turbidity sensor reads, add a tollerance spectrum, and then basicly tell the machine to run sad appropiate cycle pattern within sad tollerance.

Further, the logical layout of such AutoSense cycle make clear why they aren't good with burned on or sticky soils (like PB): These soils need temperature, detergent and time to dissolve. Both factors that are determined during the sensing period and applied mostly after the sensing period. Thus, they dissolve once sensing is done.

Interesting note on that: To my knowledge, no AutoSense system can run any optical sensing cycles after detergent has been released, because detergent makes the water kind of "cloudy" and thus makes reading inaccurate. But, on the other hand, this allows for sensor guided interim rinses.

Further some AutoSense systems check for temperature curves as well. They basicly plot temperature vs. time within a given temperature range, allowing it to determin how full the load is. Such systems sometimes get messed up with loads of plastic or heavy pots that absorb a lot of heat.

Now that I think about it, wouldn't it be interesting to design an optical sensor that checks for different spectrums of color in the water? Like, the standard range used to day, and another for reds and one for greens? That way, one could make a guess about what the actual soil is?
Like burned stuff is brown, so red and green would both read high turbidity, giving long soaks; tomato and such would read a lot of red, giving many rinses; greens as well.

 

[murando531]

henene4 - The color spectrum idea sounds awesome!! It's funny, when Whirlpool first had their demo videos on the website when the Point Voyagers were gaining traction, they depicted the size and soil sensing system as some kind of wavelengths coming from the middle of the lower arm, so for a while I thought they had some kind of echolocation system that measured how ultrasonic sound waves bounced around and how much got absorbed from soil on the dishes. Imagine how different dishwashers, washers/dryers, cars, etc. would be if engineers had the freedom to design things the way they -really- wanted to.

I've found that the new Whirlpool seems to use its sensor for more than just periodic sensing-pauses. If there is any water in the sump up to any part of the sensor, it will perform a pulse drain at the start of the cycle before filling. When the water level is below, it just starts filling after the Start button is pressed.

I also noticed it add a few seconds' worth of water randomly in the middle of one of the prewashes, and again during a rinse in a separate cycle, but it doesn't do it every time. I can only guess that it will top off the water level if the sensor picks up any air, much like the Cabrio, unless the motor is able to sense cavitation. That eases my OCD knowing that it will still do its best to fill properly even if a shower or something is running at the same time. I suppose this is what Whirlpool calls their "Dynamic Fill" system.

 

[murando531]

I'd say Sensor cycles are great for what they are, and they've come a long way since the days with pressure soil sensors, like the high-end PowerCleans had that weren't very reliable, but a good rule of thumb would be to just use a heavier cycle or add the hi-temp option if there is anything stuck on the dishes that won't begin to break down during the first prewashes.

 

[johnb300m]

Sensors

Fascinating discussion on the sensors, fellas!

From what I know, the optical emitter in the current GE sensor is bright green.
When I did my initial test when I installed the PDT720, I could see the green light glowing out the back of the sensor.
There was also one time I interrupted the machine during a Heated Dry cycle, and much to my surprise, I could see the sensor still glowing green through the filter plate! Crazy! I have no idea why they'd keep it on during drying.

I believe GE's sensors used to be a red LED, based on my parents' much older TritonXL.

Partially unrelated, but there's some optical technology out there in smoke detection starting to use dual wavelength photoelectric sensing. Different wavelengths in fact reflect differently, so maybe there's something there with each manufacturers' sensors being different colors and changing over time. Maybe they're looking for different things?

It's a good question, when and where in the cycles the sensor is taking readings.
The old TritonXL literature said it constantly monitored soil and temperature. Those machines never paused and ours had a "sensing" indicator on the panel that would light up whenever the optical sensor was active.
It would stay on for all cycles, and through all wash portions. It would shut off during final rinses. However, during the LAST rinse, the machine would fill with fresh water, and pause for about 20seconds. The "sensing" light would come on for that time. Tech sheets said that this was a re-calibration time that the machine would do with 'clean' water. The final rinse was the cleanest time to do so. And it was great because it would always ensure base calibration to local water conditions.
I HAVE to imagine the Whirlpools and our new GEs do something similar.
As to when they actually take optical readings now? Who knows. I know all our machines do a lot of pausing now. So maybe they take periodic samples?

I wish my GE would use its sensor for water level testing. Because I feel like it short-fills on the rinses! But maybe that's by design. I think that's the most annoying aspect I've found. I want full pressure, dammit!

 

[jamiel]

Good point about the sensor not being used post-detergent drop. I'm largely happy with the behavior of the Bosch we got 2 years ago, but it's so quiet that I don't pay much attention to it. I do sometimes sprinkle some powdered DipIt on the inside of the door (a very old box) but will no longer do that (may try to catch the wash, though). I notice the Bosch seems to have trouble on banana pulp, which sometimes sticks to spoons/knives and doesn't dissolve off. I typically use AutoSense and Sanitize, for a cycle time of 2:20.

 

[henene4]

Never quote me on something...

It's such something I read in some service manual some time ago, and it seemed rather logical to me.

 

[johnb300m]

Henene, you're partially right about the sensors. GE's first sensors only sensed in the pre-wash and rinse to decide on what the rest of the wash/rinse profile would be.
But I think most modern sensors are active a lot more, but I don't know for sure.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I'm only halfway through reading this forum

but I wanted to comment on the jet dry solid. My previous Point Voyager Whirlpool from 2005 had a dispenser leak. I bought a new cap for it and it seemed to be OK, but months went by that I didn't use the dispenser but I used a jet dry basked - in fact, I still have 4 under my sink unopened. Why? Because they dissolved away WAY too quickly!! I remember even creating a topic about it a long time ago..Andrew, I will be really surprised if your jet dry basket lasts very long. I remember they used to last SO LONG in older dishwashers. I'm thinking after like 5 loads maybe it was completely gone

 

[mark_wpduet]

OK -

I read the rest of this forum. Geez, I've been exclusively using the auto (sensor) cycle on my maytag with hi temp and tough scrub (by the way Andrew, what the blank does tough scrub do?) I've never had any disappointing results so I've continued to use it, and I remember when I first bought this machine I was wondering how extreme the cycles times would be because of it being a modern machine, so I was totally shocked when auto clean seemed to not run much longer than my 2005 point voyager I always ran on pots and pans and hi temp/no dry. About 95 to 105 minutes give or take. I can never time it because it's too quiet and I'm never in the kitchen when it actually is finished...I think I'm going to do the PB test again on the "Normal cycle" next time because I have never used that cycle.

 

[murando531]

That's odd about the solid baskets. I've had mine in the machine for the past five or so cycles and it barely looks like it's shrunk any at all. I always put it in the very front left corner attached as high as it will go, and usually there's a cup or whatnot that keeps it from being directly hit.

I actually have no idea what Tough Scrub does, my MDB4709 doesn't have it. It was always an option listed on a lot of Maytags I've seen from the 80's and 90's; my grandparents' electronic Reverse Rack Jetclean had it listed and was basically a "high temp wash", and the later models with the plastic tubs and spray tower had it listed as the same option. I wonder if it's just another thing Whirlpool kept for nostalgia. I'd imagine it may just extend wash time or add more rinses and heat than the Hi Temp Wash does.

Mine has Hi Temp Wash and Steam Sanitize, the latter being the same as Sani Rinse, which I just recently learned heats the main wash water to 135 and the final rinse to 155, meaning that selecting Hi Temp if you're using the Sani option is pointless because it bundles them together anyway. I always thought it was either/or. The more ya know, lol.

 

[logixx]

Mark

There should be a tech sheet behind the toe kick of the dishwasher.

 

[jerrod6]

I don't know exactly how the sensor on my machine works but since I have a countdown display on the front of my machine I can tell when it modifies the cycle.  I think the sensor varies the water temperature between 105F and 150F depending on soil.

 

First the alternating spray arms.  My machine alternates the spray arms every 15 seconds for the first 3 minutes after  EVERY fill.  I assumed this was to adequately distribute the water and to let upside down items collect whatever water they will so that the machine can adjust the amount of water in the cabinet but I don't know.

 

After about 3 minutes the spray arm alternating changes to every 30 seconds. The exception to this is during the cheese or starch cycle where during the main wash the spray arms change every 90 seconds or something like that, but after the main wash they go back to every 30 seconds.

 

The prewash on my sensor cycle lasts between 7 and 13 minutes.  If you have a half load of light to moderately soiled dishes you will get the 7 minute prewash.  Normal soil, heavy soil you get a 13 minute prewash.  Regardless of load size if you have light soil the water change between the prewash and main wash will be skipped.

 

Next the main wash.  The main wash will run 4 minutes before the detergent cup is opened and the heater circuit is turned on.  Around the 4th minute the cup will open and you can hear the  breaker on the heater circuit trip( the technician told me this sound was the heater circuit) .  At that time if the water is cooler than what the DW needs for the main wash  it will add additional time to the wash right then.  If it is hotter than what it needs it will subtract time from the main wash.  For normal to heavy soil between minutes 12 and 18 the machine will adjust the wash cycle time up or down. If the soil is found to be very light it will start adjusting the time down around minute 9.   If the soil is light it may adjust the wash cycle down again in a few minutes.  I have also seen it add time to the wash after it had been washing for about 40 minutes also. 

 

About 6 minutes into the first rinse which is normally 8 minutes long the machine may increase the cycle time by 8 to 10 minutes  This means the first rinse has been extended, OR an additional rinse has been inserted into the cycle.  If the first rinse ends at the 8 minute mark then an additional rinse has been inserted into the cycle-- and you are getting 3 rinses instead of 2 if not,  you are getting a longer first rinse.

 

Last rinse.  Time can be subtracted from this rinse.  If it is the time will drop to 22 minutes left and the machine will run 1 more minute.  There don't seem to be any timer holds to heat the water for the wash since that is adjusted at the beginning but there may be a timer hold of about 3 or 4 minutes at the end of the last rinse.  If so the next time you run the cycle extra time will be added to the time estimate for the cycle.  I think this is because the time estimate you are given includes the estimated time it will take to heat the water.

 

Like I said I don't exactly know how the machine is doing this but this is what I have observed and the sensor cycle is the one I use the most.  It seems like it can tell the difference between oil, starch, and fiber soils because if you give it cheesy oilily stuff or - peanut butter -  you are likely to get 3 rinses.

 

My machine is 10 years old so newer ones may operate differently.

 

 

 

[logixx]

 

[frigilux]

Mark-- It's funny how you've never used the Normal Cycle and I had never used AutoSense, LOL. I finally tried it on two loads today. Unfortunately, wasn't in the kitchen to notice if the machine behaved differently, as does John's PFT720. Both loads were completely cleaned, but neither contained pots/pans. The time displayed is the same for both cycles: 1:51 (when not using Power Dry option).

I'll use AutoSense again tomorrow when I make a roast beef Sunday dinner for a couple of guests. That will involve plenty of cookware--saucepans, roaster, a doughy food processor bowl, etc. That ought to be a better test of its sensing abilities.

I've always used the Normal cycle on my dishwashers as that's the one used in Consumer Reports' tests.

 

[johnb300m]

Washability Issues

Hey gents!
I ran another load last night and intensified it a bit.
Normal wash, Steam Prewash, Temp Boost.
Filled the cup with some leftover 7th Generation powder I'm going through and put some vinegar on the door. (Which was pointless because it did 2 Hot Start water purges before actually starting to wash).
Rinse aid is turned 3/4 on the dispenser.

When I checked the load in the morning, I was expecting everything to be immaculate....but it wasn't! :-0

I put the PB glass over a bottle jet to clean that up finally (but didn't turn on the Bottle Wash)
Another glass in the corner had some white grit all over it, but it brushed off with my hand.
A processor blade I put on the utility shelf came back full of grit, for the SECOND time.
And a corning dish on the bottom still had a little bit of chicken still stuck to it. (not pictured).

Instead of flying off the handle, saying the Profile is the worst piece of crap ever
I'm going to go the engineering route and try to identify cause and effect.
Especially since I KNOW this architecture works; with my parents' 540 and Frigi's good results with his 750.

I have a few suspects.
Even though I've got my water softener limping along, the water must be still so hard that the machine can't perform with such a headwind.
Then there's my detergent, which right now is 1/3 a box of Seventh Generation powder. It worked fine at the old apartment's Durawash....and it seems to be working ok in the 720, for the most part....
But maybe it's just not powerful enough to handle my water.
SO i'm going to buy some Finish Quantum tablets.

Any other ideas???