Life with the GE Profile DW, 2016

[johnb300m]

Washability Issues

Hey gents!
I ran another load last night and intensified it a bit.
Normal wash, Steam Prewash, Temp Boost.
Filled the cup with some leftover 7th Generation powder I'm going through and put some vinegar on the door. (Which was pointless because it did 2 Hot Start water purges before actually starting to wash).
Rinse aid is turned 3/4 on the dispenser.

When I checked the load in the morning, I was expecting everything to be immaculate....but it wasn't! :-0

I put the PB glass over a bottle jet to clean that up finally (but didn't turn on the Bottle Wash)
Another glass in the corner had some white grit all over it, but it brushed off with my hand.
A processor blade I put on the utility shelf came back full of grit, for the SECOND time.
And a corning dish on the bottom still had a little bit of chicken still stuck to it. (not pictured).

Instead of flying off the handle, saying the Profile is the worst piece of crap ever
I'm going to go the engineering route and try to identify cause and effect.
Especially since I KNOW this architecture works; with my parents' 540 and Frigi's good results with his 750.

I have a few suspects.
Even though I've got my water softener limping along, the water must be still so hard that the machine can't perform with such a headwind.
Then there's my detergent, which right now is 1/3 a box of Seventh Generation powder. It worked fine at the old apartment's Durawash....and it seems to be working ok in the 720, for the most part....
But maybe it's just not powerful enough to handle my water.
SO i'm going to buy some Finish Quantum tablets.

Any other ideas???

 

[murando531]

I have some thoughts if I may...

So, as nice as it seems to use "green" detergents like 7th Generation and Greenworks and such, they're not really known for their cleaning power. I've tried a few samples and even the PowerClean had trouble with what would have normally been easy tasks. On the other hand, while Finish Quantum is RB's "flagship", in my experience it caused sudsing during the main wash and of course starved the pump, and I honestly didn't see any difference in results. Likewise for Cascade Platinum vs. Complete; don't really see a noticeable difference. I would try Cascade Complete pacs or Finish Powerball tabs and see if results improve.

Also, from looking at parts breakdowns for the new GE's, I think they have a similar behavior to the Whirlpool with the way the diverter valve system works; even if Bottle Wash isn't selected, the diverter valve still passes through that position for a few seconds when alternating between arms, like mine does with the silverware spray bar and the TurboZone. When the options are selected, it just makes sure to dedicate time to the chosen zone for a portion of each part of the cycle. I'd imagine that with Bottle Wash selected, the results would have been much better.

It doesn't look like the bottle jets are active at the same time as the upper arm, they should be independent. I'd think that pushing water to both areas would drastically lower the pressure.

 

[frigilux]

When the 'Bottle Wash' option is selected, the PDT750 pauses and the bottle jets do their thing. Using the option adds about 25 minutes to the cycle (at least that's what it says on the time screen). I so rarely use the option that I am not certain if the machine pauses for a full 20-25 minutes while the bottle jets spray. The dishwasher is so quiet that you'd have to commit to sitting in front of it for the full cycle to really know what's going on inside.

John, you're in for continual disappointment if you expect things to come clean on the little fold-down shelves in the upper rack if cups (or other water-blocking items) are directly beneath. The first thing I thought when I saw the photo of the upper rack in your original post was, "Those glasses on the left will not be cleaned." The GE's simply don't have the power to overcome that obstacle. I have good luck laying rubber spatulas or big cooking spoons on it; not so much with glasses or small bowls---unless room is left between items directly under them for the water to get up there.

Barring any mechanical problems, I think your poor results have a lot to do with hard water. I'm more than happy with the cleaning power of the PDT750, but I have super-soft water. If your water is really hard, you may want to switch to Cascade Complete Gel and use dispenser-filling doses for both the prewash and main wash. Use the Heavy cycle. Hint: Put detergent for the prewash directly on to the floor of the machine.

You'll probably find softened water coupled with a top-rated detergent (like Cascade Complete or Platinum pacs) will improve results--even on the Light or Normal cycles. I'd avoid the AutoSense cycle since it can't know your water is hard.

[this post was last edited: 1/10/2016-19:56]

 

[johnb300m]

Bottle Wash and soaps

Are you sure it runs the bottle wash jets separately from the rest of the upper rack? I know Murando n' I are in agreement it sure seems like a lot of volume to fill, to run the arms and bottle jets at the same time.... but upon really inspecting the mechanicals of this machine, I don't know how water would exclusively go to the bottle jets.
It's just a little tube attached to the upper wash arm conduit, and I don't see an dividers or separate conduits from the pump going to the bottle jets.
Unless there's another diverter IN the upper arm conduit, and flicking the pump power gets it to switch? I have no idea.
I was just under the strong the impression on my 720, that the bottle jets are always on, and the Bottle Wash cycle just gives additional time to the top rack for the jets to do their work?
That and when my upper rack is on, whether I have Bottle Wash chosen or not....it sounds like sustained, non-rhythmic water spray on the tub ceiling in my machine.
Do you hear any of that, Frigilux? in your 750? The constant spray on the tub ceiling, likely from the bottle jets?

Who knows!
None of us will know until one of us puts a camera inside the damn thing, haha!
I've been dying to, but I've been so freakin' busy the last several days.

And thanks fellas, for the water and soap tips.
I think you're all right, in that my water must still be really bad. In fact, I'm sure of it now. Even the clean stuff, unloading tonight, while looking clean, just felt "chalky."
I'm gonna have to really be using all sorts of enhancements, gobs of soap, and lots of LemiShine to get any sort of positive results, until I can finally get the water softener replaced.

 

[frigilux]

John-- I seem to recall the first time I used the Bottle Wash option that the machine paused and I could hear a much softer water sound going on, which I assumed were the bottle jets. As is the case with me, I could certainly be wrong! You guys have looked into it more thoroughly and I can't imagine my Bottle Wash works differently than yours.

Wish I cared enough to actually sit in front of the machine to listen closely for a cycle...but it seems I don't, LOL. All I know for sure is that the Good Seasons cruet comes clean when I use the Bottle Wash option and it doesn't (consistently, at least) when I place it in a 'regular' spot in the upper rack.

 

[johnb300m]

Hahah! Thanks Frigi!
I think the largest differences in our machines are that you have the variable speed motor with internal heater. My pump is 1 speed so it's always on Hi.
I wonder if there's different times in the cycle your machine runs at different pressures.....?

 

[frigilux]

Thoughts: It would seem logical that the entire upper rack apparatus (arm and bottle jets) are at work during the Bottle Wash phase. Interesting, though, that the cycle in which I used Bottle Wash failed to clean the glass in the corner. You'd think it would have come clean if the upper arm was also spraying the whole time. I didn't use Bottle Wash in the 2nd cycle and that's the one in which the glass in the right rear corner was thoroughly cleaned.

???

 

[logixx]

I looked at the parts diagram and it seems the pump has two outlets: one for the bottom spray arm and another one to supply the upper rack and ceiling spray.

Question: where the upper rack attaches to the supply tube - is there more than one outlet? Here's a video, but I can't tell if the jets are on or not.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/12/ge-dishwasher-s-bottle-washing-jets-speed-cleaning/index.htm?video_id=2874150058001

 

[murando531]

It could also be that the supply for the upper spray systems is a tube-within-a-tube, like the whirlpool. There is one manifold going up the center back that has two pipes going into it, but then it becomes a flat square duct. Perhaps it's just hard to tell how it's piped in the GE. I highly doubt the Bottle Wash jets are running with the upper arm because if so there would be no reason to have the option on the panel, it would just be a part of the cycle. It would also be a hefty pressure loss to the upper arm.

We all need GoPro's pronto! Lol. I love that we all have brand new modern machines that are tearing down the negative stigma against "HE" dishwashers. We just need to get the inside view to figure out what exactly is going on because they're so dang quiet it's hard to tell by just listening.

 

[logixx]

I looked at all the parts up close on GE's website and the supply tube to the upper rack, Bottle Wash and ceiling spray is just one tube. No tube-in-tube or anything.

 

[cehalstead]

tough scrub

tough scrub extends the wash cycle with water heating and adds an extra rinse. It's all explained in the owner's manual.

 

[johnb300m]

Half load

Thanks everyone for the FASCINATING discussion!
For your reward, I have pics of my first Half Load!
I was out of spoons, and thieves a good time to try out the partial washing performance.
I added the bottle jets on, to finally clean that damn peanut butter glass, and try to hear what it does.

 

[frigilux]

John--  I wash half loads in the top rack all the time.  Put the silverware basket in the bottom rack.  Mine always comes clean.  Apparently the bottom arm still provides plenty of washing action.

 

Alex--  So the upper arm was spraying the whole time the bottle wash jets were in use.  Why on Earth did that glass not come clean in the first load?!  It would have gotten more wash time than it did in the 2nd cycle when the bottle wash option was not used.  Mysteries of the dishwashing universe.

 

[logixx]

Well, at least from a mechanic point of view, I can't see how the dishwasher could only run the Bottle Wash jets, as there are no valves anywhere to channel water only to the jets.

 

[frigilux]

Before purchasing the PDT750, I watched this video.  Maybe this is why I thought the bottle wash jets sprayed independently.  



 

Another, longer video shows what appears to be water from the upper rack's wash arm spraying water at the same time the bottle jets are spraying.



 

 

 

[askolover]

I saw that too

that's misleading if it isn't the case!

 

[logixx]

The manual for the Bottle Wash dishwashers says "Bottle Wash - This option increases the time that the bottle jets are on and may add up to 23 minutes to the cycle time". So, it increases the time the upper rack and sprinkler (the 3rd spray arm is now replaced by a sprinkler) are running.

 

[logixx]

And c|net says: "The bottle-wash jets will actually spray during most cycles, regardless of whether you've selected that add-on. Pressing the button just extends the time they spray."

 

[johnb300m]

Well look at that! It's right there in that 2nd video! The bottle jets were spraying while the upper arm was spraying.
The top rack load finished. I was doing other cleanup stuff in the kitchen while it rain the main wash, and I didn't hear any modes or sounds shift or change. It pretty much ran the top rack the whole time. The lower arm kicked in a bit during the post-rinses.
It's really seeming like the bottle jets on the GEs run with the whole top rack.
Even in the online manual, the verbiage sounds like the Bottle Wash option just runs the top rack longer to give the bottle jets more time to do their stuff:

"Bottle Wash (on some models) - This option increases the time that the bottle jets are on and may add up to 23 minutes to the cycle time. Use this to wash difficult to clean, dishwasher safe baby bottles, sport bottles, tall coffee cups, etc. See use recommendations in the Loading the dishwasher section."

Seems pretty conclusive to me.
Honestly though? I looked at other dishwashers in the past, and it looks like the Electrolux models and KitchenAid models, who have their own bottle jets now, require those jets to be flipped up, which then use the same water from the upper rack system in those units as well.

As with the half load I ran, everything came out clean! The PB is gone....however there was one glass in the far corner that still had crud blown into it.
It's really looking like the upper corners are real WEAK spots on these X-arm GE machines.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I'm sorry -

but the bottle wash feature would be AWESOME to have. I also LOVE the look of this Dishwasher.

I've never had a dishwasher that can do one rack of dishes only. I'm trying to imagine the inside of a dishwasher that can do this, with dirty dishes only in the top..but food soils all throughout the dishwasher before starting it...does the top rack running ONLY allow the entire of the inside of the dishwasher to be cleaned since the bottom isn't running at all? I'm guessing water is still flying everywhere though. I've never really thought about it until just now.