Maytag 8100 Front-Loader: Spin Problem

[murando531]

So, I don't know if this is related at all, but my mother-in-law's Whirlpool Cabrio 8500 seems to behave in a similar fashion sometimes...and it's a top loader. It seems that no matter how level the machine is, or what size load it's washing, it seems to periodically decide that it doesn't want to go into full speed spin, and sticks around the 500 rpm level and tacks on a few more minutes to the cycle. If I'm not mistaken, your machine and John's are of the same generation as this Cabrio, and from what I've read, these new machines now have accelerometers built into the logic board that will "adapt" to its surroundings and will also force the machine to lower the spin speeds if it senses that a full speed spin might vibrate or cause excess noise.

For her machine in particular, I've tweaked the leveling feet to the point that I can't get the washer more level even if I tried. All four feet are firmly planted to the floor (which is tile on concrete slab), and the basket is dead center in the opening, yet at certain points in the spin, the body will vibrate just enough that it looks like the machine might start walking, yet the feet are still planted down. For some reason, they are now using these large plastic leveling feet that seem designed to give slightly. I'm not sure if this is a penny pinching decision or if it is supposed to help reduce vibration on less stable flooring, but in any case, I'm not a fan. I'd much rather have the solid metal locking bolt feet that are on my BravosXL, because my machine doesn't so much as vibrate even with heavy loads.

From what I can tell, the feet on the front loader Duet/Maxima are still traditional locking bolts like mine; could the machine be at all off-level, even slightly? Enough that it could cause the basket to vibrate outside of its thresholds and cause the logic board to force slow spins?

 

[washerdude]

Just a theory:

Could this be the machine telling you that the tub is hitting the cabinets side panels during the spin cycle and is prompting the user to stop the unit? Never once, did our washer beep when it had this issue, nothing even came up in diagnostics despite it even doing the exact same thing in the diagnostic cycle.

 

[johnb300m]

Very interesting insight, guys.

In my situation I have not experienced any "beeps" during cycle.
That seems to be a deeper issue in the software I would gather.

My vibration issues seem to be more intermittent lately, since I swapped dampers in the rear, but still apparent.
Andrew's correct, that these new machines all have accelerometers in the control panel, the motor controller, or both.
Some loads create different vibrations and harmonics, based on solid or wood floors.
Mine are on 2nd story wood floors, which does have a little give.
There's also a dryer stacked on top, which could be affecting movements/vibration.
The fact that my units are stacked, makes it very difficult to level the legs. I was able to make small adjustments when I had the rear panel off, weeks ago. It "seems" pretty stable but with the wood floor, it may never be perfect.

I'm more curious about Frig's beeps!
I wonder if there's a control issue, maybe along with one or more "weakened" but not "bad" dampers?

That Duet video was very interesting!
I must state that when my Maxima was brand new, in full spin, there was even LESS tub movement than that. I'm saying, almost none!
That WP vid certainly shows some oscillation on spin, but it's minimal.
That's what my machine will do now, or maybe a tad more, after "the incident."

 

[appnut]

As mentioned in a post above, there's a guy on YouTube (Dean's Washer Videos) who moved from Australia to Canada.  He had an LG in Australia and decided on purchasing comparable WP about 3 or 4 years ago.  I vaguely remember him making a comment after one of his new LG washer videos when asked what happened to the WP.  First they just liked the LG better.  But he also began experiencing the situation where it wouldn't spin above medium.  He got it fixed, but I think he said there's a software issue with this series of WPs.  The replacement LG was procured summer of 2015 or 2016. 

 

[mark_wpduet]

A software issue?

So you think that might be the problem of these 2 machines having spin issues? If so, I wonder if it's been corrected by WP?

 

[washerdude]

Another Possible Fix?

Ironically enough, its the exact same model as mine. Apparently replacing the stater fixed the problem. However I have not replaced anything but mess around with the wires and somehow it managed to work. The link below has a similar problem but their unit managed to reach 1200rpm then immediately stop. This seems to be a rare issue only on some models, I really can't find anything still as of this date about this issue.

https://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/threads/52953-Whirlpool-Duet-weak-spin-cycle

 

[mark_wpduet]

Ahhh

What does a stater do? I looked and it looks like a relatively expensive part.

 

[washerdude]

OOPS!

Meant the stator motor LOL! Not sure how the stator has anything to do with the problem considering WP units don't even use a hall sensor... It seems as if its mearly just a stator style motor mounted to the back of the tub with nothing else, which could point to another indication of software issues. What is beginning to worry me now is if messing around with the wires really didn't fix it, is the problem just laying low for now?

 

[washerdude]

Prices

The price of the stator is a little alarming...
https://www.whirlpoolparts.com/PartDetail/Stator/WPW10657810/4449084

 

[mark_wpduet]

@ washerdude

There are two alarming things about that link you posted:

A) the price
B) the fact that it's OUT OF STOCK!

 

[DADoES]

 
Mark,

The stator is the non-moving part of the drum drive motor. It generates a magnetic field (forward and reverse) to turn the rotor, drive shaft, and drum.

The online parts source I've been using lists it at $198 and claims in-stock.

 

[henene4]

Hmmm

As far as I know these are driven 3-phase... So some imperfections in the stator could cause the MCU to get wrong readings in terms of power draw, making it belife there is a OOB situation...

It could be one of those "multiple slight issues, but non causing a fault alone" situations:
-aging dampers
-bug in MCU software (calibration drifting out of sync, and the beeps might be recalibration signals or such).
-loose connections
-slight irregularities in the motor itself
-enviroment (fluctuations in the power grid, maybe stray radio signals, such random stuff)

I guess actually troubleshooting this without a fixed constant to work off of will be more a guessing game then help.

On another note: Someone mentioned these don't use hall sensors. How do they monitor speed then? Some feedback winding in the stator, or are they just taking the frequency they drive the motor with as ensured speed, basicly keeping a tumbling speed without any feedback about it?

Latter could be another possibility: The MCU registering any parameters that might suggest something wrong with the motor...
Does anyone have a service manual for one of those Duets or clones with the DD motor?

 

[washerdude]

@henene4

Yep there are no hall sensors on WP based units. Seems you can only see them on Samsung and LG units. My assumption is that speed control and direction are heavily controlled by the CCU. I remember on the older generation of DD WP FL's, they actually used two control boards. A motor control board, and a main control board. After the first or second generations, the second board was ditched and it now seems to be fully controlled by the main board.

Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but I noticed on certain heavier loads on my washer, the tub sometimes spins the opposite direction it intended to and it causes a clunk, then a slight buzz followed by a pause and then spins the proper direction. On Deans videos of his LG, i have never heard that, maybe this is because of more accurate feedback thanks to the hall sensor?

Whirlpool is generally good about fixing issues and bugs like these without causing a huge scene *Cough Samsung Cough*, and often the issues are no longer present in the newer versions of the machines. It makes me wonder now, could this be a reason why Whirlpool updated their previous line of DD FL's? I wonder if its fixed on the present models.

 

[hvtech42]

Service bulletin

I just checked, and Whirlpool has a service pointer out for this issue on this model. Their solution is to replace the main board, which differs from the above fixes of reconnecting the stator motor and replacing the stator. I notice they only listed a limited serial range (40th week of 2015 thru 36th week of 2016 manufacture dates). There are also a lot of direct drive front load models missing from the list.

http://https//s3.amazonaws.com/sm-b...01a508042c10e/Service Pointer - W10913408.pdf

 

[mark_wpduet]

Well

I'm glad they are aware of it and updating it. I was worried since my next washer is going to be either a Duet or Maytag.

Frigilux - You haven't posted about this in forever.

 

[frigilux]

Haven't had it looked at, yet. It appears to be reaching the proper spin speed, so I'm reluctant to bring in a service guy at this point.

 

[johnb300m]

another incident

So I had another incident last night, washing a medium load of jeans in my 5100.
5 pairs so it was about 2/3 full.
Done this many times before.

But when it got to the point of the final 2 minutes of the spin, where it ramps all the way up to 1400rpm briefly, things went awry.

As it ramped up to 1400, the noise and vibration became excessive enough to shake my whole 2nd floor, and the machine promptly ended the spin cycle.
Nothing was so bad where the stacked unit did not shift at all in place. But it was still excessively loud and prompted a shut-down.
Thinking something might've just shifted on that ramp-up, I ran the jeans again through a separate "Drain/Spin" cycle.
SAME outcome.
Regular spin ramp ups seemed fine. Even the high speed right before full ramp up seemed ok.
Just when things went full tilt to 1400 did it go all crazy.

I still cannot discern if there's anything truly wrong in the suspension.
There's still excessive horizontal oscillation in the suspension during spins.
But it's been rather well behaved recently. Until last night.

I tried several times, really hard, to hold the tub steady, and put upward force on the steel basket to sense play.
I'm just not sure.
I DID feel a very slight "click" as I pressed upward on the basket.
I don't know if that's normal, or if that's the sign of a loose seated bearing, or a weakness in the spider.......

I may have to induce it again, and record it on video, for a future repair call.

 

[mark_wpduet]

John -

I forgot you too basically have the same machine as Frigilux - I want to keep an eye on this post to see if the mystery ever gets solved.

 

[washerdude]

Jeans and FL's

Washing jeans in my WP Duet clone have never been consistent when it comes to the spin cycle, washing yes, but not spin. A couple weeks back we did a load of 5 pairs of jeans and at the second spin, everything seemed balanced and there was little tub movement, until it began ramping up. The tub went completely out of tilt and began hitting the door so hard to the point the door began shaking and the ENTIRE machine began shifting like an off balance top loader, I did stop it nonetheless, I just find it strange how the CCU thinks that this is fine...

Anyways.

Here's something a little off about my washer after all. When you look at the tub directly across, the tub DOES NOT look perfectly on center at all. It seems to dip down towards the front left. I should note, when I grab the tub and swing it against the cabinet towards the left, it seems VERY easy to do, but when I try to do the same on right, it takes some force and effort to make the tub hit the right side of the cabinet.

 

[appnut]

Well, my jeans cycle default spin is medium and if that's what Whirlpool thinks it's best to be, I won't up it.  And I don't have problems.

 

[frigilux]

Don't see how spinning a load of jeans at 1400 rpm could be any more difficult for the machine than doing the same with a BobLoad of bath towels. I spin everything but dress shirts/pants at 1400---even comforters.

Haven't owned a pair of jeans for years, so the Maytag 8100 has never washed any.