Modern Energy Star Dishwashers and Pump Horsepower

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verizonbear

verizonbear

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So in using the tall tub GE energy star dishwasher in my new house, I am finding the water pressue to the upper rack spray arm is anemic, in some of my larger coffee mugs I am finding ground residue. When I open the door during a cycle, I see that the lower wash arm spins faster than the upper arm. This model does not alternate pressue between the two arms like Frigidiare and some european models.

So what is the horsepower on these pumps for new dishwashers? In the old days I though 1/3 horse power was the standard with Kitchenaid with the 1/2 horsepowser the exception.

So with the newer models with the seperate motor/pump for the drain and wash action what is the actual horsepower. I see that the Viking Dishwashers ( the new model made in house notthe the older ones made by Asko) are 1/2 horsepower pumps.

So my question is does any other manufacturer rate thier pump by horsepower? Am I stuck shelling out 1500 bucks to for diswasher with a 1/2 horsepower pump?

http://www.vikingrange.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m4210080_24_VDB_DFB_450E_BI_Dishwasher.pdf
 
KUDPORIRWH2 Kitchenaid

Is the model number of the KA tall tub we are using as our daily driver and it has a 1/6th hp pump in it and is probably the same for all the WP based tall tubs.

I asked a tech once why they dropped the hp so low and he said that since they dont have to turn a wash impeller and a rinse impeller on the same motor shaft, there was no longer a need for the hp.

He also mentioned that along with the reduced hp, they also made all the water passages smaller so the water would be able to reach the upper arm and constant rinse of the tall tubs and if you look at the water tubes on a Hydrosweep and WP washarm, they are miniscule compared to what they used to be with the 1/3 and 1/2 hp pumps.

As regards the GE machine above, I would suggest you take the pump inlet apart and make sure that the passageways are not clogged up which would have a serious effect on the amount of water being pumped thru the system. On the WP baased machines, it takes precious little to clog up the meager oepnings in those horizontal pumps with the result of little or no water actually getting into either washarm. Happened to me this weekend when I cleaned the barbeque grills in the tall tub Kenmore. Clogged the pump up in the first prewash. I let it finish the cycle and then had to disassemble the pump right down to the soft food disposer blade and vacuum out all the left over crud the pump could not handle!

Now it's all better!
 
The dishwasher here at my parents has a pump rated at 100W, that's less than 1/6 HP, it has alternate washing on three spray arms (top sprinkler, middle arm, lower arm) and has no trouble in cleaning whatsoever dirt we put in it. Burned on food shift just fine if we use the strong cycle (2 hours) and normal pots&pans and everyday dishes go in the normal cycle that in 85 minutes delivers all clean all the time, so I don't care what's the power of the pump in my dishwasher as long as it gets me clean dishes and does so silently. (So silently that the fan of the oven is more noisy!)

The machine at my place has a 200W pump and does the same job in 10 minutes less but doesn't dry as nicely because it lacks a fan and purpose condenser as it's a natural drying machine. On the other hand is much more noisier at 51db!
 
MODERN DW MAIN PUMP HP

Tall tub WP built DWs use three different motors, they started out with Emerson motors that are 1/5 HP they also use an LG supplied motor that is also rated at 1/5 HP and many are coming through with a Chinese built motor and that motor is rated at just 1/6 HP. All three motors are interchangeable and when ever I replace one I always use the faster running 1/5 HP Korean built motor.

 

All that said the top wash arm in any DW moves much slower and delivers much less water, they are designed this way so as not to toss about the glasses.

 

The reason for the reduced motor HP and reduced water output of newer DWs is the American obsession of all things European. And the quest for energy efficiency and quiet DWs. As a result DWs have forever been greatly reduced in usefulness as a household appliance.
 
The G.E Siemens motor that is on my mongram is 1.8 Amps but then I have seen others out there with 1.5 Amps the ones from South Korea. I had the same problem with mine and have found away to make it clean a lot better when it comes to the cups in the corners.My G.E. has the pure clean wash system with the smaller holes in the wash arm holes in it.There are two type of upper arms I have seen in G.E. dishwasher's.The one I  am talking about seems to be the most popular it has 4 grouped together very equal like a inch apart from the others one one side of the arm.I took plexi glass and watched the wash action which is not great but it is way better than any Frigidaire at least.The water comes out of the holes at the ends of the arms mostly so I plugged the hole at the very end of the top wash arm on the side with the most holes in it.There is a huge difference in cleaning the corners of the cups now and you can hear the water hitting the door it does not stop or slow down the wash arm but if you use powder detergent it does seem to have a problem with getting the detergent cleaned out of the cup if you fill it full.I use Finnish Quntaumatic detergent dispenser which cleans the best for me but I have no problem with the any tablet detergent.If you use powder detergent use commercial detergent and fill it half full and make sure it stays dry the seal in mine leaks and causes the detergent to cake. The biggest issue for my G.E. is grease build up and it will stop the wash arms from spinning bad the top wash arms on mine.I have to use that dishwasher cleaner about once a month I don't pre rinse ever..I am waiting on my New Samsung Storm-wash dishwashers that I am ordering once I get my new Monster professional Kitchen redone...I was going to get Miele Dishwashers but the Samsung's Stormwash is a hell of a dishwasher it's just 800 bucks and got a hard food disposer in it.....
 
I just don't understand grease building up in a dishwasher. An appliance that is supposed to function with hot water and caustic detergents should be the last place you find grease building up. Is it a matter of too little water being used or the fact that the water is too cool or perhaps that the water action is so weak that the detergent is not getting into solution fast enough or maybe that the detergent formulations have gone to hell? Something is seriously wrong when a machine that is supposed to clean dishes cannot clean itself. It's almost as ridiculous as a clothes washer that is not self cleaning...oh wait; that's different sides of the same coin and that common coin is very much reduced water usage.


As far as what John said about fascination with things European, remember those awful solid disc cast iron elements for electric stoves. Those went over like a screen door on a submarine, yet so many people here just had to have them.

Maybe the way stupid people rinse everything before loading the dishwasher makes these sorry-ass machines acceptable to them. I hope I don't outlive my real machines.
 
those awful solid disc cast iron elements for electric stove

Gosh, those are AWFUL!!! I had to use them in Germany and Sweden while on holiday I wanted to throw the pan out the window!

Cit. "The reason for the reduced motor HP and reduced water output of newer DWs is the American obsession of all things European"

I guess so, but I don't see anything wrong with it: it's just a different approach. I don't mind waiting 120 minutes for clean dishes if this means using 1/3 of the water and 1/3 of the power compared to another model! It should be clear but some machines on the market today need only around 8 litres of water and 0,8 kWh of energy to clean dishes for 12! After all the machine is so silent you barely can hear it.
Otherwise I can press "forte e veloce" on the machine and voilà, clean dishes in 60 minutes at the expense of double power and water use. So you can choose what you want.
 
DW Performace

I always want seriously dirty dishes cleaned in less than 1 hour and I don't ever want to have to clean any filters let alone the machine it self. And when something does go wrong [ there has NEVER been an appliance that doesn't ever break down ] I want it to be able to be repaired without being pulled out from under the counter. I don't care if I can hear the machine running, no DW built today is so loud that you can't talk over it and no DW has ever caused hearing damage, you would think that people are talking about gasoline chain-saws.
 
The Samsung storm wash dishwasher that my aunt has is not like any Whirlpool I have ever seen.The tall tub Whirlpool Dishwasher's that I have seen all have sidewinder motors on them both the new Whirlpool with the filter in it and the the one with a grinder in it.The Samsung motor is not a sidewinder save for the drain pump here is a the schematic for the pump,nothing like a Whirlpool or anybody they make dishwasher's for or own...

volsboy1++3-6-2012-04-29-17.jpg
 
Ops

Wes when I said that Samsung DWs were smiler to tall tub WP products I was thinking of LG DWs. Sorry about that. The pump in the SSs is very different than any WP machine. It is similar in many ways to the now defunct MT Tall Tub machines that WP wisely pulled the plug on. The SS pump is certainly a contemplated one and I am not sure about installing a water heater in a plastic pump housing.

 

But as an appliance specialist who is paid a lot of money for my advice I could not begin to recommend a SS DW to my clients. There is no good proven track record for these DWs and parts and service are still very lacking. If anyone wants to experiment with Korean DWs I can save a few from the trash pile, let me know usually we have to give the recyclers $20 for them.
 
My sister had a problem with greasy - mineral build up in her Whirlpool Gold dishwasher (1999). Turns out the problem was solved by going back to powdered detergent from tablets. When you don't get any detergent in the first water change(s) before the main wash, the water's ability to suspend the soils is almost mil and the machine will distribute those soils evenly throughout the dish load and the machine itself. Once the detergent is dispensed, the (sometimes) sudsy nature of these tablets cause a slow-down of action in the machine. Combine that with very hard water and the results were obvious. Grey, filmy coating all over the interior of the machine, racks, etc. Once she went back to powdered detergent in both dispensers, crucially the first pre-wash, the problem disappeared completely. I never start a dishwasher without at least a little detergent in the pre-wash cup, or sprinkled on the door in machines that don't have a provision for it.
 
Our Repairman Told Us The Same

Ages ago when we applied to him for advice on using tablet dw detergent.

This was just after Electrasol introduced their product and his advice was never to allow the first cycle of a dw to run without any sort of detergent. His rationale was along the lines of one is allowing all that muck, soils, and god only knows what else on dishes to be flung all over the place without the "break" and suspending power of detergent.

In theory using a decent amount of product in the main wash *should* clear up much if not all any problems from the above, but as one often noted those darn tabs caused way too much froth and slowed down my dw.

To use up the supply (and it was vast owing to purchase of a job lot when local supermarket discontinued the stuff), one broke the tablets into two, and put one half in each detergent compartment. Once the stash was done, so was I with dw tablet detergent, and haven't bothered since.
 
Dishwasher DetergentTablets

I have always strongly suggested that you should always put detergent in the pre-wash cup as well as the main wash cup. Now that the Detergent tablets are so good and poplar I recommend their use, but I ALWAYS tell folks to use regular liquid or preferably powered detergent in the Pre-Wash cup also or add at least one tablespoon of detergent on the door before starting the DW.
 
How I resolved it

Used the pots and pan cycle , heated main wash and dry 120 minutes, used a finish powerball with Calgon water softner power in main detergent cup, used 2 tablespoons of "dollar store" powder dishwasher detergent that seemed to me mainly clolrine based. Jet Dry set for max. Everything came out clean finally no soil redeposition
 
It must depend on the dishwasher. My Bosch dishwasher doesn't even have a pre-wash dispenser. If the pre-rinse water isn't too dirty, it skips the water change and just goes into the wash on the regular cycle. I don't pre-rinse, yet it skips the water change most of the time. So the regular cycle usually has only 3 water changes, plus a short flush before the cycle starts. I dont know how it can use so little water, not have a pre-wash, yet gets everything sparkling clean. My guess is that it probably has something to do with the guaranteed 140F wash and 155F final rinse, and the 90-110 minute cycle time.

The heavy cycle has a heated pre-rinse, and it always changes the water after that, and if the load is terribly dirty, it will change the water again and do a short flush before the wash. I only got it to do that once, when I washed the outdoor grill racks. The main wash and final rinse are both 161F.
 
Much is to be attributed to the quality of the incoming water. When it's sand and pebbles coming from the tap in homes without softeners, the dishwasher is hobbled from the beginning. Add detergent that does nothing to break the water and a slow-moving disaster is all but guaranteed. Our water is about 12-17 grains depending on where you live in the metro area and the source from which the water is drawn. I have a softener and it's still stunning to go into homes without one. Sand and pebbles slowly gnawing away at every surface it touches.
 
@foraloysius

Always remember that water in a European dishwasher is always good for the wash as it is automatically softened, while in an American machines all is left to the local supplier as they don't have softeners.
So I trust them that they can get very poor results and need all those "tricks" to make the machine work correctly.
 
My Dw can use high termperatures for washing and rinsing but I still like the idea of putting a little bit of detergent in the prewash cup when using powders or tabs especially since the first fill on my machine is mostly cool water. My prewash cup only holds 1/2 tsp or 1 tsp or some small amount like that.  The prewash for most cycles last about 13 minutes, but some of the stronger cycles have the prewash lasting for 25 minutes and during these the water will be heated to steaming so I always use detergent in the prewash for these cycles.  There are also the cycles that don't have a prewash at all and just a wash....two rinses and dry ....these work very good too but after using them repeatedly for a week I will follow up with a cycle with a prewash using a small amount of detergent in it.

 

Like Joes DW, mine will skip the water change between prewash and wash for lightly soiled dishes or small loads but most of my loads are heavy so this rarely happens and it is more likely to insert an additional after rinse than skip the prewash water change.

 

 
 
Ditto on what Jerrod said.

I also put some detergent in the prewash as it heats to around 90F on the auto cycles and clears most of the soiling. Water is usually changed when the Bosch advances to the main wash because of the usually heavy soil level.

The Bosch also has a 100 watts pump but it's powerful enough to forcefully throw water way up to the tub's ceiling. PLUS: I can run a autoRegular cycle with the speed option and have clean, sanitized and dried dishes in an hour. Unlike Whirlpool's One Hour Wash cycle that does not dry dishes (adds 30 min. to the cycle), does not sanitize but needs twice the amount of water compared to the Bosch.

Alex
 
Just fininshed going to 3 stores today and was unable to find Finish DW powder.  This is the brand I use in the prewash cup and I also use it in the main cup when I want to use a powder.  It works much better than the current version of non phosphate Cascade.  The shelves were loaded with Finish tabs and cascade tabs and there were a few boxes of Cascade powder.  Now it looks like I will only be able to buy tabs and not powder.  I guess I will need to get the meat clever and hammer out and start hacking and banging the tabs to turn them into powder.  Disgusting actually.  

 

Has anyone else seen a decrease in the availability of Finish powder or  DW powders in general?
 
I have no idea what the hp is on the new KA I just bought. Doesn't seem to mention it on their website. Apparently it does have a 1 hour wash cycle option. I'm not that fond of leaving the house or going to bed with either the dishwasher or washer running unattended.
 
I don't know the HP of my machines motor either, but I have seen it and it is a major large part.   This happened when the repair person replaced the water path part in my DW which was under warranty.  The water path is on the left side of the machine but he had to take the bottom off to completely remove it.  I would say that the motor/pump runs from the back wall of the machine to the middle of the sump.  The motor part  looks like a  big MOTOR, but then my machine designed in 2004 so no way to know what the motors look like now.
 

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