My First Neptune Adventure-- The Smelly Washer

[fordtech]

You would be shocked how many of these great machines have been stripped for parts or just junked. I have seen thousands of the used parts on Ebay. There was a glut of new parts out there dirt cheap for a few years too and people just chose to destroy great machines.

I think with so many finding similar problems now with virtually every machine sold in America that there have to be some whom regret this and the end of the real Maytag.

 

[cfz2882]

wax motor trouble on mine.

when i started troubleshooting the mah3000 i bought for $25 in
non-working condition,i quickly found it had the classic
"wax motor" problem-cause was the resistor disc clipped to the
side of the wax chamber had it's conductive faces about 1/16"
apart with no insulation around the edge-they get a little
damp and"flash over"blowing out the little triac on the board
along with the resistor..
I took a wax motor from the dispenser,carefully took it apart
and insulated the edge of the disc with a tiny bit of "glyptal"
insulating paint.Put that wax motor in the door lock,did the
same repair to the other dispenser wax motor,fixed the
original door wax motor(ground off a bit of metalizing where
the flashover occured,insulated)put that one in the dispenser
bought some triacs from didgikey and replaced the blown one.
After the electrical repairs fixed a plugged pressure switch
hose and the neptune was back in commission!
A little drop of insulating paint for the wax motor probably
would have saved a lot of these from an early grave...

 

[fordtech]

Yes they were a common issue on early models. They have an electronic solenoid to replace the door latch and an all new dispenser with solenoid water valve and that has eliminated most problems with the control board. There is a new motor and controller as well. Zero electrical problems here and both my newer machines have the touchscreen digital panel so that is a good thing. They made other improvements to reduce smelly washer as well, but the tide was too high of people who couldnt wait to sue Maytag into oblivion so Maytag did stupid stuff like adding that miserable top load Neptune and the Korean made Neptune with the glass doors, both of which were crappy. They had the Neptune rear panel washers nearly perfect by early turn of the century but it was simply too late and too many CORPORATE decisions that were poor at best and the class action suit put the nail in the coffin.

 

[3beltwesty]

Re people in America have such problems with stinky front lo

My dad got his first Frontload washer in 1947 and second one in 1976. Both were Westinghouses. The detergent recommended with each was All in powder form. The 1976 machine still works.

In growing up with American made FL washers I NEVER remember ANY issues with mold at all. In Indiana and Michigan the FL Washer was in a damp basement.

This whole FL mold thing came about in America in the mid to late 1990's when America rediscovered the FL washer. These new type FL washers did not look at Westinghouse's FL boot design that goes back to right before WW2.

The idiots basically were so stupid they did not look at a 1/2 century old American FL boot design that worked. This behavior is common with newbie cocky engineers and designers who know everything. They designed in a boot that collected water.

Many of us who grew up with older American FL washers find it real odd that a design 1/2 century later has mold and smell issues. A friend who had a Maytag Neptune in the late 1990's was always complaining about the horrible smell and how bad FL washer are; having to clean the boot out with chlorox.

The smell was so bad one had to hold ones nose in their laundry room.

In past eras many of us left the FL washers door open; or not latched so the boot would last longer. FL repair guys recommended this in the 1950's.

There are folks like my neighbor who got nickeled and dimed to death with repairs bills on the Maytag FL Neptune and thus went back to TL washers and junked the FL. The rash of moldy boots; wax motors; Solenoid, R11 and Q6 issues were so high that Maytag gave my neighbor a 550 buck off coupon to buy a Maytag TL machine. Sending the machine to its grave was an economic decision; the FL had too many repair costs.

 

[3beltwesty]

The neighbor who junked the FL smelly Neptune used powder he detergents. Thus the mold smell must have been a design issue with too much water collecting in the boot. After several newer type boots and leaving the door always open; the issues were more like R11/Q6's and wax motors and solenoids. They still complained of the moldy sewer smell but not as much. They actually placed a clothes line outside to air out stuff from the washer, wind and UV to remove smells.

Events like this caused many folks to drop newer American FL washers.

 

[fordtech]

If a heavy mold accumulation occured in the machine like mine, a boot replacement would not have been enough. It wasn't just liquid detergent, it was the amount of detergent combined with cold wash only. Anyway you know darned well that if the repairman came out and the tub was loaded like mine, he sure as heck didnt clean out the machine and it would still have an accumulation that stinks.

I didnt mention it but there were also a LOT of BAD techicians replacing loads of stuff that had no clue what they were doing. Those technicians were also running up the costs of the repairs and not fixing it right when they did work on it. Another major cause of Maytags fall was poor repair network. If all the Maytag dealers had sufficient staff to keep thier customers machines serviced by properly trained technicians much of the failures would not have occurred or would have been repaired per factory specifications.
Too many people got thier machines serviced by the lowest bid contractors working for extended warranty companies that sent out any old flakey technician who just guessed his way to do the repair.
Maytag was also at fault by not sending out qualified technicians, or checking behind the qualified ones to make sure they werent over selling the repair.
I cant tell you how many people on Ebay were selling new parts that the service tech ordered and said wasnt anything wrong with it.... never installed it.
Maytag paid for a lot of repairs that werent done or werent done properly.

There are a lot of good qualified technicians out there, but there are also a lot of folks who dont want to work on your machine if they have to put any real time and effort to it. They want a fast buck, fast in and out the door repairs. If they think it is going to take a lot of thier time they will scare you away with ridiculous repair prices and you just junk the machine as a result.

Now today Whirlpool owns the company and they are trying hard to kill every Neptune repair by charging outrageous prices for the parts alone.
The only way to win with Neptune today if fix it yourself and get the parts off Ebay for the most part.

 

[powerfin64]

bad technicians

I had a experience with a not so qualified technican about a year ago.
Story- bought my first front loading washer, which was a Amana.
6 months after I got it, it started to leak from the front boot and the door was sagging a touch. Called amana, repair guy came out, and ordered parts. parts didn't come in, then very shortly after, amana replaced the washer with a new one of the same model, (due to didn't know when parts would be available.) 6 months later, same problems arose with the replaced washer, called amana, and they sent out someone from the same company, who sugguested replacing 2 items. parts were ordered and installed by the same guy. less than 2 months later, same problems AGAIN. Did the same process all over ,and got someone else from the same company to come out and look at it. Told him the whole story of everything, and he told me to, go to where I bought it, and tell them I want a different brand due to all the consistent problems, which I did do. Amana(whirlpool) wanted a different company to check it out. Now, this guy KNEW his stuff. told him the full story, and he pointed out right off the bat, that, This wasn't installed right by the last technician, and asked me if I wanted it fixed or just tell Whirlpool what he found. I didn't want it fixed.
After all that was done, I got a different brand front loading washer, which I am very happy with and haven't had any problems at all.

Rich

 

[sudsmaster]

In addition to the onboard heater, another advantage of the 7500/6500 Neptunes is that they incorporate a rapid tumble sequence in the next to last rinse cycle. This helps to loosen any debris that has collected inside the outer drum and flush it down the drain.

I've had my 7500 set since 2001. There has never been a mold/odor problem. I rarely do cold washes - they are either warm or hot, with at least one hot wash per week. I've also never used chlorine bleach in them. STPP gets the duds very clean without needing bleach.

In the past year I have noticed some mold collecting under the detergent dispenser door and in the cavity. This is very light and a simple swipe with a sponge gets rid of it. Since there is no mold on the boot and no odor, I doubt this is heppening elsewhere inside the washer. FWIW, the Miele 1918 I keep in the unheated workshop also develops mold in the fabric softener compartment. It's less if I leave it open after washing. But I think the "environmenatally safe" fabric softener might have something to do with the mold development in both the Miele and Neptune, as well as the cold water only supply for the garaged Miele.

 

[fordtech]

Ive read many posts from you Sudsmaster over at the Garden Web about your 7500s and I know you have the most experience with them. I was thinking my old 4000 model did the rapid tumble with the later generation controller but maybe the 7500 was the first after all. Been too long to remember now.

Ive use STPP with Persil in the past but the combination got too expensive for me and at one time I couldnt even get any STPP. I wish I could get it locally, as I do really like the improvement in performance in harder water.

 

[fordtech]

NOW the 7500 Inspection after 5+ years

So last night curiosity got the best of me and I had to tear down the 7500 model that replaced the washer in this original topic a little over 5 years ago. I primarily wanted to see what the effects over time have been with using powedered detergent exclusively. This machine is used primarily by my wife, but my adult daughter uses it for her personal laundry and I use it a couple times a month for my uniforms. In total the load counter on the machine shows 1745 loads of laundry done in that time frame.

I have noted many times that this machine has not had any odors from mold or soap buildup in all this time. I also noted that I dont leave the door open after washes and we do at least one hot wash load per week and one with bleach LCB.

What I found was rather shocking to me, and I believe to be the result of hard water. Ill let you help me decide but I was more disappointed than I expected in what I found.

The Machine Maytag MAH7500AWW Neptune

 

[fordtech]

This view shows the door removed, and placed where you can see the vented opening at the bottom that is ducted to the air vents at both sides of the top of the door.

 

[fordtech]

This is front panel removed, dispenser door removed, top raised out of the way and supported. You can see the latch assembly which will be removed next with two screws and the wiring to the heater assembly. You can also see the drain tube assembly for the boot.

 

[fordtech]

Here is where the issue begins to be revealed. After removing the latch, tub cover clips and wiring and pulling the tub cover here we see a crust that has formed in the areas where the water line is. The water heater is coated with this completely and the crust is rock hard on the metal surfaces. It can however be scraped off the plastic surface. You will see some residual amounts of lint in the bristle seal and in small clumps in various areas.

 

[fordtech]

And here you see the sump area

 

[fordtech]

And now the stainless spinner basket removed. Note the very dry area above the water line and normal splash areas as opposed to the dark not quite dry areas below. This crust is thin but very hard. I was able to scrape most of it out of the plastic outer tub but it was stuck tough to the spider.

 

[fordtech]

Here we see the outside of the stainless spinner basket. This crust is tough as nails! You could grind it off but I dont think it is necessary, as it is thin and doesnt add any significant weight to the basket.

 

[fordtech]

So in wrapping up this task I cleaned off all the crust that I was able to scrape from the plastic outer tub, the front tub cover, sump area, removed all debris and lint and cleaned the bristle seal. I could not adequately remove the sediment from the heater so I replaced the heater and its sensor with a spare I have here. But I plan to soak the original one to dissolve the sediment later and restore it as they are 120.00 for a new one and Ill save it for spare.

I have successfully eliminated slimey scum and stinky smelly washer over the past 6 years but now that I see this I wonder what I could do to prevent or reduce this hard sediment? Perhaps adding a water softner? Or just going back to using STPP to soften the water? I wish now that I hadnt waited 5+ years. I wish I had taken it apart after the 2 years I used STPP with Persil powder to have a comparison to now.

I questioned both my wife and daughter and they state they only use 1 scoop of HE detergent per load so I dont think it its overdosing that caused this. It would appear to be primarily hard water.

What do you think?
I know someone earlier in this thread suggested that all that moldy soap scum in my 4000 washer may have preserved the spider and internals from corrosion. There may be something to that! But of course the negatives of the odors that were present in that machine were obvious not to mention health hazards.

Im happy to have no more mold or smelly washer but I sure would like to know how to keep this from forming any worse. I am already making plans to purchase a new stainless drum when the major rebuild happens in another 5 years. I also have a couple spare spiders so that is not a problem.

But I would also like to do some preventative maintenance along the way.

 

[jetcone]

Current powder formulations are dense, compact

and so you use a much smaller dose,yes, you are using much less water. However powders unlike liquids depend heavily on buffering agents to soften the water so the surfactant can dissolve into the water and go to work. If the balance between hardness and softness is not just right then hard water will form solids with the builder/softener and also the surfactant used.
It is important to keep the water softened throughout the wash.
Also all soils in laundry drive up the acidity of the wash water, soils are acidic by nature. Clearly a regular dose of TIDE HE powder in your water is not enough to keep the wash liquor alkaline through the whole wash cycle. Since you have such hard water you need a booster in there. You can add STPP like you say but you can also add "washing soda" to keep the alkalinity up and plain old washing soda is a lot cheaper and better for the enviroment.
That is why I am formulating "SPLASH" to have a powerful, compact alkaline builder for hard water situations such as these.
In one recent batch I put too much builder in and got cotton clothes that came out of my Neptune looking like they had been buffed upagainst a sand wheel! So you can have too much alkalinity as well as too much acid. Alkalinity of around 11-14 is a good zone to be in for wash water.

Great Job on the Neptune, I love my 10 year old baby, but I also love my American made Speed Queen too!

 

[jetcone]

PS Fordtech

I bet if you soak the tub in CLR it should come clean again. Let us know how you make out!

 

[fordtech]

Thanks Jetcone! Ill work on getting those things corrected. LMK how the "Splash" works out! Thanks for reminding me about CLR, Ill see if I can find some.

 

[hoover1100]

Interesting

It certainly seems that your detergent dosen't contain water softening agents, or not enough. Either that or not enough is being used.

I know many Americans on here recommend adding phosphates to detergent to soften water.

Our detergents do not contain phosphates anymore, but this has made no difference at all to their cleaning power or the way they look after machine parts. If you use Persil or something like that, despite not having phosphates, you won't need to add any.

So yeah, I guess the solution would be American detergent+phospate, or a European detergent.

Still can't work out why the removal of phospahtes has made no difference at all to our detergents, but seems to have had a huge effect on those accross the pond. Bizarre!

Matt

 

[3beltwesty]

In the USA Phosphates were banned in home laundry detergent eons ago; I think 1993. Today the quest is for drop it from dishwasher soap too.

In the Southwest USA gambit is to buy the washing machine soap in Mexico; since they have laxer standards.

 

[hoover1100]

3beltwesty

I know, same here, I just don't understand why removal of phosphates has had a negative affect on the performance of U.S. detergents, yet the removal of phosphates has made no differece to detergent performance over here.

Matt

 

[fordtech]

I think it is a lot more than just the phosphates. Lots of changes in environmental standards, the type machines we used when phosphates were legal, the difference in heater temperatures onboard from europe and their smaller high speed machines and water conditions,treatments etc.

Jetcone I am not sure how much good CLR would do on the spinner. I finally finished working over the heater element and it took about an hour and a half of scraping and a couple hours of soaking in CLR with scraping between soaks and wire brushing.

 

[qsd-dan]

Hard Water

I'm looking to purchase a Scalewatcher soon since I have extremely hard water too. It uses electronic frequencies to prevent magnesium and calcium from bonding, thus preventing build-up. Long term use actually descales hard water deposits overtime.

http://www.scalewatcher.com/en/

 

[fordtech]

Great! Thanks for the tip and the link Dan!

 

[jetcone]

Matt to answer your question

about the phosphates gone from EU detergents, what they did in EU is to replace them with zeolites to soften and added a chemical compound ( can't think of what it is right now) to protect machine parts from becoming coated. I'll have to dig out my Henkel formulation book from Germany and look it up, it has a loooonnnnngg name.

Thats why you are seeing good results in the new phosphate free detergents.

Fordtech that looks like a clean heater element to me, there was one other descaler I have used that was stronger than CLR, can't think of it right now , if I remember I'll put it up. I think it came in a yellow bottle?? Too much coffee today.

 

[mrb627]

Phosphates

I would be willing to bet that part of the reason the removal of phosphates has effected cleaning performance in the States is that the wash phase of our machines is kept short and sweet. In the UK, washing goes on and on which is where enzymes will perform their best. Long wash cycles like that in the States will never prevail unless the machine can do three load of clothes at one time, LOL! Americans are just not gonna do laundry everyday, if they can help it.

Malcolm

 

[hoover1100]

Jetcone (Jon)

Thanks! I wasn't sure about that, but it makes sense now.

Still don't understand why zeolites and said chemical compund were not added to U.S. detergents when phosphates were dropped, seems a bit odd!

On the plus side, at least theres no signs of mould or detergent residue in your machine Fordtech!

Matt

 

[fordtech]

Great points Jetcone! If you think of that other cleaner LMK please.

LOL Malcolm, you know we Americans couldnt take 2 hour wash times!

Matt, you've got that right! No mold or detergent buildup is great after 5+ years in that machine!