My new Haier Twin -Tub

[pulsatron]

Well as of tomorrow, I will be the owner of a brand new Haier Twin-tub and I cannot wait to try it out.
I was tossing up about the Haier or a similar Hitachi but in the end the price was right ($499.00)Aust, and came with a comprehensive 5 year warranty which covers service, parts and labour costs and according to their website and information from my local appliance friend spare parts are kept locally so no more sending overseas like the dreaded Bosch F.L., so in the end he finally won me over.
It has a 6kg capacity washtub/5kg spinner, a bubbling pulsating wash action(which I am curious about),a buzzer to let you know when the wash cycle has finished,15 minute wash timer, a 2 stage wash action selector(standard and intensive)5 minute spin timer.
I will let everyone know how it works if you like although I do not have a scanner on my computer so I cannot download pictures im afraid.
This meand of course no more only buying low sudsing detergents I know have a large range to select from although it will be hard to prise me from my Persil I think.
Cheers folks.
Steve.

 

[Designgeek]

Good going there Steve. I noticed Haier were selling a rather large TT in the US a couple of years ago; something like 19 lb. rated capacity (realistically probably more like 15 lbs.). Unfortunately this has since been discontinued, but Danby is still available in a compact capacity.

I'd be interested to know how the pulsator works, i.e. how many seconds or how many revolutions in each direction, how long of a pause between changes in direction. (or is it one direction of rotation only, with pauses?)

Also is this machine equipped with a drain pump, or is it gravity drain?

The bubble wash action, I'll guess, involves an air passage that goes down to the underside of the pulsator, and some perforations in the top of the pulsator. The pulsator spins rapidly and this "whips" some air into the water much like whipping cream. That could be good for making more suds with less detergent.

And, how fast is the spinner rated?

Re. detergents: You may find that you can use less than you're used to and still get the same cleaning ability. You can also do a non-agitated soak before turning on the pulsator; this cuts down the amount of time needed for agitated wash by about 1/3 which could be helpful if you're off-grid (I vaguely recall you saying you were on solar).

 

[Bearpeter]

Sorry to rain on your parade....

I hope you dont mind me putting my 2 cents in...
When I was in Mexico, i was also fascinted with the pulsator TT's. I bought one and took it home. This pulsator was with 3 dimensional "Punch"

Total let down. It was a large pulsator at the bottom that had three "free wheeling" small discs attached that did absolutely nothing!
The advert shows the three discs spinning independantly of the main pulstaor but in reality, they were just cosmetic.
In my opinion, a complete con! It ws a samsung, i think.

The best TT i ever wned was a Hoover. Great cleaning, if not a little rough!!! (hmmm, just like I prefer my men!!!)

 

[mickeyd]

Thanks

I've never experienced a Philco, but I'm wild about them. The agitators and the water currents fascinate the b'Jesus out of me. And the jist i get is that you have MORE Philcos. That's amazing! You must have a ball with them. I'm usually a light loader, but sometimes I bobload. Can the Philco hold and move the most clothes for that size tub?

What a satisfying thread.

 

[pulsatron]

the new Haier in action

Hi Designgeek,
I have just done my first load in the new Haier T.T. and it was just great, here are the answers to your questions.
1.On Standard wash the pulsator rotatesfor about 8-10 seconds one way then has a 4 second pause then 8-10 seconds in the opposite direction on Intensive wash there is no pause just back and forth relentlessly in each direction for 8-10 seconds.
2.You were correct about the bubbling action there are rows of holes in the puilsator which do seem to whip the soapy water into quite a lather(sorry about the pun.)so I only use about half the required dose of soap powder.
3.It has a drain pump to empty out the water.
4.The spin speed would be between 1400-1600 rpm's,the manual doesn't really have a lot of technical stuff, however the old F.L. was 1000 rpm's and this is quite a bit faster, indeed the load was virtually dry when it came out.
The buzzer is a little annoying so I won;t use it I think.
I did a 6kg load in about 15 minutes with 9 minutes washing, then 2 minute spin to empty out soapy water then 2 saturation spins with 2 minutes spinning each time, the rinse water after the 2nd rinse was clear so then a 2 minute spin to wrap it up.
Also believe it or not the load was not tangles up either which I found a little surprising.
Bearpeter,
Yes the old Hoovermatic T.T.'s were very popular here in Australia for a long time I understand over 1 million were sold down here, although as you say they were pretty rough on the clothes I guess that is why they only had a 4 minute wash timer, you would not want much longer.
Cheers Folks,
Steve.

 

[gizmo]

Hi Steve

the spin speed is probably 2800rpm or thereabouts.

The type of motor used in these spinners has a fixed speed based on the cycles per second (Hz) of the power supply. In AU we have 240 volts 50 Hz, these motors have a speed of 1400 rpm if a 4-pole motor (spin would be pretty ordinary due to small drum diameter) or 2800 rpm if a 2 pole motor (spin is very impressive).

There is no in-between with induction motors. 1400 or 2800 rpm. These are theoretical speeds, the real speed is a whisker slower due to efficiency losses.

Glad you are enjoying it.

Chris.

 

[Designgeek]

Bearpeter, the pulsator with the little twirly-whirlies on it is a completely different design from what Haier uses. Theirs whips air into the water to keep the suds up, and I would bet that the air bubbles also tend to lift particles of dirt to the surface where they'll exit via the overflow drain if one is provided.

Pulsatron; way cool.

Those pesky buzzers are designed for when you have the washer installed in a place you can't hear the mechanism operating, or if you're listening to the radio or watching the telly while the washer is going. I turn 'em off too, like on my tumble dryer for example. (Now if only I could turn off the beeper on my microwave...)

A drain pump is pretty well an essential. Gravity drain is OK if you can discharge the wash water into the yard or garden for irrigation purposes.

Fifteen minutes for 6kg sounds like an all-time record, pretty close to Hoovermatic cycle times.

Standard vs. Vigorous: Yeah that's for sure! Sounds like it would scrub the stink out of a skunk. "No tangles" is a pleasant surprise. Maybe the way to do delicates is to start with a non-agitated soak and then use the Standard setting for three minutes?

I suspect the reason the Hoovermatics were prone to tangling is that the water action is similar to a vortex on a horizontal axis, with a certain amount of shear. The portion of the load near the pulsator would move in a faster circle than the portion near the opposite wall, and the difference adds up to the tendency to tangle. Though, it could probably be alleviated with proper loading procedures, and Hoover could never have sold a few million of those worldwide unless most of the people who had 'em never had any problems.

Good info there Gizmo re. motors. I'm going to guess Haier spins at 1400, because Danby is rated at 1400 - 1600 and does a good job, and Haier has a larger capacity spinner, probably a larger diameter, so 1400 would produce even more Gs.

If only you had pictures...

 

[pulsatron]

Delicates

Designgeek,
Yes you are spot on with your info on how to do delicates in the T.T. just a quick soak for maybe 5 minutes and then 3 minutes washing on Standard setting.
Cheers.
Steve.

 

[pulsatron]

Further updates on Haier T.T.

Well I have had the new T.T. for about 2 weeks now and it is still surprising me with how efficient it is.I am finding that even tough stains like tea and coffee spills on table cloths and yes you guessed it the dreaded skid marks on underwear(now going red in the face),just wash out quite well with a short soak in the washtub and then a 9 minute hot wash on Intensive.
I have now learnt that everyday clothing with just mild soiling really only need 6 minutes washing to get tham nice and clean.
To tell you the truth though I am a bit amazed that such a basic no-frills machine can wash as well as it does.
The old F.L. was a bit more gentle on the clothes yes, but I have since learnt through trial and error that shorter wash times can take care of that problem.
Cheers Folks.
Steve.
P.S. Sorry to keep adding to this thread but I am just so excited I can't help it.
Thanks everyone.

 

[Designgeek]

Good to hear it, Steve.

Simple tech works; use motors for muscles and use the ol' noodle for a program controller.

BTW, I've been experimenting with varying the cycles to minmize electricity consumption. I've got it down to 60 watt-hours for a 6-lb. load, which is 10 watt-hours per pound of laundry, and it comes out perfectly clean. Plus the energy for heating the water, but assume solar thermal in an offgrid situation, so hot water is effectively "free." I don't know that there's any way to get it lower aside from using one of those muscle-powered tumblers. (Actually, a pulsator washer with no spin cycle and gravity drain (these are available e.g from Koblenz via Ebay), and an external hand-cranked wringer, might do the trick... it would be interesting to build something like that just to see how it worked.)

What I need next is an inline water meter that I can stick in a length of hose, and will read accurately even at a very low flow rate; then I can start measuring the tradeoffs between water & electricity and plot them on a chart.

 

[Bearpeter]

...aahhh yes... skidmarks!!!!

erm don't have a clue what you are talking about!!!!!!!

 

[pulsatron]

Are you sure???

Bearpeter,
Are you really sure you don't know what skidmarks are??,or perhaps you are merely pulling my leg anyway I am not sure myself if there is a nice way to put it other than to say they are a stain on your undies which is a rather strange brown colour, and that is where we might just leave it I think.
L.O.L. L.O.L. L.O.L.
P.S. Thank goodness for hot water, Persil and Fiesta.
Cheers.
Steve.
Designgeek,
I wonder if we may have the answer as to why a lot of T.L.'s are so rough on clothing, maybe the normal cycles just agitate for too long and this leads to fraying and the like, after all if my day-today clothes are quite clean after a 7 minute wash in the T.T.,why do some T.L.'s have cycles which are 18-22 minutes long. Just a thought.
Regards,
Steve.

 

[Designgeek]

The simple definition of "skid marks" is "poo stains." Like, as if no one here knows what poo is Also commonly observed when someone is sick with a stomach bug or food poisoning, before they start taking their Kaopectate.

Anyway...

Long agitation periods are intended a) to substitute for a long soak followed by a short agitation period, b) for larger loads that won't roll over as freely as smaller loads, so the longer cycle assures that they still get clean, c) to be sure that really grimy stuff gets properly clean.

What would be interesting on an auto TL (and might also be possible on FLs), would be an option for a long soak period, where the agitator would operate maybe once a minute just to move things around a bit (or not at all for that matter). This would be followed by a shorter agitation period.

I've also noticed that the long soak followed by 3-minute agitation on the normal (vigorous) setting does as good a job of cleaning as a longer agitation period on the gentle setting, and uses less electricity to do it.

Someone needs to publish a decent article on off-grid laundry options. Hmm...

 

[gizmo]

Hi Designgeek

"off grid" laundry is my fascination, the reason I got into washing machines in the first place. When my house is finished, I intend to build a washing machine shed and get back into experimenting with washing machines to use less power and water. I used to do it when I lived in civilization but I haven't had the time since we moved. I have a few ideas of frankenstein machines I wish to make up and have most of the basics in stock already.
In some ways though I am being overtaken by technology, for example a FP top loader uses so little power and (in AU at least) is so cheap that it is barely worth trying to better it. However its water consumption is so high that although I own one I haven't used it for about two years. I currently use a ten year old Asko which I have modified. The heating element is disconnected and the thermostat is connected to the fill solenoids so that it fills with hot water till the set temp is reached, then it adds cold water.
I have a selection of low voltage DC motors to play with, and I can make up basic electronic circuits for motor control and timer though I have a lot to learn there. I would particularly like to know how to control a FP smart drive motor, they have a lot of potential and I'd love to have one driving a front loader. I know LG have similar FLs but here in AU they are only available with a heater and the circuitry is too clever, you can't switch out the heater without it detecting a "heater not working" fault.

Anyway, one day I might write that "off grid laundry" book, but I have a bit to learn first. I have already had an article published here on how to convert a Hoovermatic twin tub to 12 volt DC operation. (I have converted 3 machines but I really want to do an auto front loader)

Chris.

 

[Designgeek]

Good stuff, Gizmo. Excellent in fact. You'd be at home among the eco-industrials here.

Here's a wild idea for you.

Take any twintub, or possibly a wringer machine, or an auto TL that's had its control system hacked to make it semi-automatic with toggle switches.

Used wash-cycle water gets discharged through a sand filter and into a storage tank, which in turn goes to flush the toilet. Water that's full of suds coming out of the spinner (or the wringer) goes into one half of a two-tub kitchen sink, where this water is stored whilst dirty dishes are allowed to accumulate for a few days. Rinse cycle water from deep-water rinses: the overflow can go to the graywater system or into the sink as needed. After the deepwater rinse is finished, rinse water remaining in the washtub is used for the next load's wash cycle. If it's going to be a few days until the next load, add a teaspoon or two of bleach to keep the water sanitary without using so much as to affect detergent performance on the next load.

Now we won't forget about those dirty dishes. The detergent-laced water from the spinner or the wringer has had a couple of days to soak the food particles loose and also partially loosen fats and oils on the plates. Thus, the plates can be pulled out of the water and put into a dishwasher on a short cycle: one wash with about half as much dish detergent as normal, and one rinse. The rinse should be at sanitize temperatures, which might be "free" if you have solar hot water.

This also suggests an interesting solar variation. Install a smaller system specifically to heat a small amount of water to near 200 degrees Fahrenheit or 90 degrees Celsius. This water would be used specifically for washing/rinsing dishes, and also for a laundry sanitize cycle in those instances where it's needed (for example when someone in the house is sick). The regular solar hot water system would be set to a temperature more useful for the shower and other normal needs.

Last but not least. About graywater tanks. Assuming you have a basement, cut a hole in the fkitchen loor in the diameter of a water storage tank, and build a frame and a stand in the basement to hold the tank so it comes up flush with the kitchen floor. Cut another hole in the ceiling, ditto. In the attic, install a block & tackle. You see where this is going, right?

Lower a storage drum so its fill opening is flush with the kitchen floor. Use gravity drain from the washer (no pump, saving about 30 watts) into the tank. Then use the block & tackle to hoist the drum up to the attic. Each time you hoist up a drum to the attic, move it over to where it's resting on a solid surface, then screw on a hose-type fitting to a tap that would have been installed in the water drum prior to use. Open the tap to allow water to run into the hose, which in turn is connected to the fill inlet on your toilet tank (instead of a clean water input).

With two water drums in the system, you always have one up in the attic to provide toilet flush water, and one in the kitchen at floor drain level to take wash water from the washer. The block and tackle system is used instead of a pump to get the water from the basement/kitchen to the attic level.

Another source of input water for the system: purge water (the cold water that comes up before the hot water when you're taking a shower). Ordinarily this goes entirely to waste. But if you save it in another tank, it can be used for the laundry rinse cycles.

So far all of this is pretty good for water conservation, but it's substituting manual labor (hoisting the water drums) for electricity (pumps), which is a relatively small incremental savings on the electricity side of the equation. What would be way cool (no pun intended) would be to find a more efficient refrigeration system, seeing as the fridge is the biggest user of electricity in the house. One way to do that might be to get refrigeration components that can be installed in a cabinet that's much more heavily insulated than normal. For example think of a foot of high quality insulation all around the cabinet including the door. And think of a fridge that's like a chest freezer, accessed via a door on top instead of a door in front, so the cold air does not slosh onto the floor when the door is opened.

Question is, where to get refrigeration components in sizes that are appropriate for a houehold-sized (10 to 16 cubic feet, i.e. about a third to a half cubic metre) refrigerator?

 

[panthera]

absorbtion

I like some of designgeeks ideas, although I would probably spend the 30 watts just to have the convenience of the water being pumped up to the attic.
And I might just have some sacrificial silver in that water tank, too.
Far as the refrigeraton goes, it seems to me that the only really sensible off-grid solution is absorbtion. There you can get some serious cooling with a very small flame or 12VDC heating element. I know of some farmers who collect and use the methane from their manure/composte pits to drive such absorbers. Works very well and costs very little.

 

[pulsatron]

The World's largest supply of methane and hot air

Australia could possibly be the world's largest supplier of methane and hot air as well, for you see we have got 9 Parliaments with about 900 gasbagging politicians who could easily supply it.
L.O.L. L.O.L. L.OL.!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Designgeek]

Pulsatron, we've also got enough politicians, and especially lobbyists and spinmeisters, to keep us supplied with enough gas to stay cozy all year. (Today's Tasteless Invention: Dilbert-cubicle office chairs with built in FartFunnel natural gas collectors. Power your PC on breakfast in the morning, and on lunch in the afternoon!)

Panthera, agreed, using a pump makes more sense in most cases. I was just thinking about instances where someone's off grid on a small solar system and every watt-hour counts. Realistically one could have an electric pump backed up with a manual pump (see "bilge pumps") in case of insufficient power reserves. In fact I designed a system using a bilge pump for that purpose. The problem is that bilge pumps generally need to be anchored to a surface, i.e. screwed into the timbers in the wall, to be conveniently usable.

Re. absorption cooling: I see that Lehman's sells a couple of gas powered absorber fridges, which can also operate on electricity. No moving parts is a plus. The ability to run on electricity and then use bottled propane as backup power is a plus. OK, now the key question is, when operating on electricity, what's the power consumption in KWH per month or per year?

Also, is there a source where one can one get the cooling units as component systems to install in home-built super-insulated cabinets?

IMHO front-loading fridges are intrinsically inefficient. Fridges and freezers ought to be top loading to keep the cold air in. The top surfaces can be used as part of one's kitchen counter space when not being opened & closed. For that matter I could design a system with a countertop that remains level as it raises when you open the fridge door below. This is not as obvious to solve as it might seem.

OK here's a simple version: you have a foot-operated pedal with long travel distance, that raises the counter on a pulley & wire-rope system, which also opens the fridge door, when you press it down with your foot. This also lets you keep both hands free for reaching into the top-loading fridge. Hmm, I should log that in my inventions folder...

Perhaps an even simpler version would have sliding covers on the fridge and freezer compartments, that slide sideways to open. However this might be problematic in terms of using doors with very thick insulation layers.

 

[gizmo]

I have started a new thread in the Super forum to discuss energy saving ideas - this thread is about a twin tub washer...We shouldn't hijack it.

Chris.