New boiler after 66 years

[petek]

Well the day came when our old Hoffman boiler gave up the ghost, errr water leaking bigtime, after 66 years (1958) and had to be replaced. Sadly they don't make such monsters anymore and I was forced to buy a new wall mounted condensing boiler. The whole job took them 2.5 days with the worst part being getting the old one outta the basement and fenagling it to the front door over to the driveway. THey removed all the casing parts and what was left was a 700 lb 1/2 inch thick stainless steel tank combustion chamber about 3ft high, 2.5 wide and about 4 feet long. Up a narrow staircase. I was sweating more than the guys doing the grunt work thinking if it slips someones gonna be hurting or dead. THe new unit is a Navien 810 something or other. They also had to route the condensation tubing across the ceiling of the rek room and then up into the kitchen sink cabinet to tie it into the drain as believe it or not there is no floor drain in this house. How strange is that to have a hot water tank and a boiler and no floor drains. Same with the laundry room on the ground floor, no floor drain there either. Well let just say I don't think this thing is going to last near 66 years but so long as it outlives me with no problems, and I'm 68, then all will be good in my book. This is probably the first somewhat big purchase I've made with doing no research on as well. I just had to get it done.You can see the footprint of the old boiler where the 12 inch tiles are missing

 

[petek]

It's amazing as well to think that one guy carried this new one in its box from his van down into the basement and it took four big guys about an hour to get the old one out.

 

[combo52]

New condensing gas boiler

Yay I hope it works well, I’m gonna guess you’re gonna see a pretty good savings on your heating cost as well.

My cousin has a huge old house near the river in Elkhart, Indiana, and when I was there for his father‘s memorial service the other month he said he was gonna have to install a new boiler and the thing was in a box in the garage. It was about the size of a dehumidifier. He said it weighed about 70 pounds.

Yes, it probably will not last 66 years my cousin Luke had replaced the boiler in this house in Elkhart , about 20 years ago with some European high-efficiency boiler he cut his heating costs from over $300 a month to barely 100 on this huge house at the time but he could not get parts for the boiler and had to replace it again.

All in all the Boiler he put in 20 years ago. Saved him enough money to pay for several new boilers.

Let us know how your new one works out Pete.

 

[henene4]

The drain thing is really such an oddity.

Our heating room has not a single drain either, so the condensate drain routes all the way to the laundry area, a good 15 feet.

Hope this will serve you well and might even save you some heating costs in the long run!

 

[justjunque]

I would say congratulations. But, instead, I'll say I hope it works out well for you, and you're happy with it.
It looks like we're going to be getting a similar system installed, maybe next week.
Unlike a lot of people, I put "high efficiency" beneath "gets the job done to my satisfaction".
Ten or so years ago, when we got our current "higher efficiency" boiler, which replaced a big old-school HB Smith "low efficiency" boiler, we were hesitant. But, we were assured that it would work great, and save us money on gas bills. Well, we've never been completely happy with it. The old "inefficient" boiler did the job. If we had set our thermostat for 90 degrees, I have no doubt that thing would have gotten our house up to 90 degrees. On a bitter cold winter day, the more efficient boiler couldn't reach 70.
Now, due to circumstances beyond our control, this combi system is kind of our only real option.
I hope all of my fears turn out to be unfounded, and we end up being completely satisfied with its performance.
It also doesn't seem right that for all of our advances we've made in technology, we can't make things last as long as they used to. We're paying more for this system that I've ever paid for a vehicle. And, from what we hear, we'll be lucky if we get fifteen years out of it.
I don't mean to be Debbie Downer. I truly hope you have nothing but good luck with your new system.
And, I'm hoping and praying the same for us!

 

[kb0nes]

Pete, the new install looks great! I have been on the edge of a boiler replacement for a few years now. I have an American Standard 100kBTU boiler that was installed in 1965.

I'm not looking forward to the installation hassles, but I am looking forward to greatly increased efficiency and hopefully total elimination of the standing flu (home heat evacuation system). I'm looking at a Utica combi system with a full stainless hot water storage tank.

The new furnace isn't likely to last 60 years, but it will probably outlast me. And it will save enough energy in the process to make more early replacement a far greener alternative than the old one wasting all that gas...

 

[petek]

So far so good but what's a few days. I have one loop in the system that doesn't seem to be heating up, the laundry room and its adjacent small bathroom and may include the rad in the garage (which is slightly warm). The installers missed bleeding that one because I forget about it so I'll do it myself, just have to move the workbench and some junk. Naturally the bleeder valve couldn't be on the other end where it's free and open as that would make life much easier lol.

I'm a bit confused as to what temperature to set the boiler at. They had it at 160 degs but it goes up to 180 degrees. I'm imagining that setting it higher, say 180, will heat the livingroom more quickly reaching set temperature on the t-stat and shutting it off. Whereas having it set at 160 will raise the temperature more slowly and with that possibly allowing more time for distant areas of the house to warm up better... Not sure if I'm making sense or not?

 

[foraloysius]

Hi Pete,

That looks similar to what we have here. It looks like you are having two issues here. The temperature of the water should be set according to the temperature outside. The colder it gets, the higher the temperature in a hot water system needs to be. Besides that, the better the house is insulated, the lower the temperature can be set. Overhere some people have an outside sensor that measures the outside temperature and sets the thermostat of the water accordingly.

If the rooms further away from the boiler don't get warm enough, most likely there is something wrong with the hydronic balance. It is best to get someone professional to do that because it is difficult to do that yourself. Or take a course in doing it yourself. ;-)

 

[petek]

Thanks Louis. Your mentioning of the outside sensor makes some sense and now I do recollect reading (after the fact) that it is possibly an optional feature like the wifi capability. The contractor never mentioned anything about the outdoor sensor though. Perhaps because when he asked if I wanted a new programmable thermostat etc I told him I didn't because we are always at home and don't have any reason for it or the capability of changing settings from halfway across the world lol.
The whole house is basically one zone with I think 4 or 5 loops branching off a single pipe which runs the length of the house. There are however at least 4 valves that allow you to shut each loop off. Sadly I don't have the blueprint which would have made it a bit easier and there is no way of seeing the piping under half the house because it is inaccessible. I'm just assuming that because there are just the two radiators not getting any heat and the third just getting a little bit that there is an air block in that loop which when I get that area of the garage cleared off can bleed the one warm radiator and hopefully while crossing my fingers will resolve the problem

 

[foraloysius]

Yes Pete, an air block could be the problem when the system has been refilled. Or most radiators get too much water so there’s not much left for those that don’t get warm enough. Balancing the system could solve that.

 

[henene4]

I don't know how that system managed that, but raising or lowering the temperature shouldn't be necessary to get heat to all rooms.

Our heating systems have either internal or external recirculation pumps that move the water through the loops.
If they are internal, the system will regulate on/off cycle or quite often now actually recirculation rate.

If your old system had a pump that ran continuously, and this has an internally controlled pump, that might be shutting of/down to early.

Still would try bleeding first though, that seems most likely.

Outside temp sensors are kind of a standard equipment on most whole house heating systems.

Our system back home uses an approximate insulation setting, a given room temp setting and the outside temp to dynamically adjust target heating circuit temp.

Some newer, fully integrated systems actually have room sensors that directly talk to the heating system.
Our "older" system has regulating valves for each underfloor heating zone that vary the flow rate to each zone.
The temperature setting on the heating system itself is basically just an approximate target to set the heating curve.

Most systems further have programmable timing for both heating and hot water.
You set high and low target temps and times.
So during the night, the target temps get dropped to save some energy during these times.

You can take that quite far.
My mum has her hot water set to basically heat for one hour in the morning and then just shut off.
Since she is alone, the hot water tank is oversized. You still get perfectly serviceable hot water even late at night.

 

[foraloysius]

At 6 minutes intothis video there’s an explanation of balancing the radiators.

 

[kb0nes]

Pete, the variable water temp dependent system based on outdoor temperature is referred to as an Outdoor Reset control. They typically are programmable so you can set a base temperature as well as a ratio slope to vary the water temp. You should figure out if that is an installed option and learn how it is programmed, it may need tweaking. I'd be surprised if your system didn't have one.

If you have individual shut off valves, or even balancing valves for your zones you can use those to help purge the loops. Close off the other loops to help the pump generate enough adequate flow/pressure to circulate through the air locked loops. Then you can open up all the valves and adjust any balancing valves according to your needs. The air separator on top the expansion tank should vent any system air when it returns, although some may have manual air vents.

 

[polkanut]

The installers or a sales rep should be willing and able to come over and give you a quick tutorial on how to most effectively operate your new boiler. I'm sure it isn't complicated, but it has more electronics than your previous one for sure.

 

[eronie]

Good luck with your Navian boiler.
I've had 2 of them self destruct in less than 5 years.
Company wouldn't honor warranty on 2nd one.
See Mikey Pipes Plumbing on You Tube.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 14

Hi Tony, what went wrong with your boilers? Why did they refuse to cover the second one?

What was the warranty on the boiler?

 

[eronie]

They both leaked combustion gases inside the cabinet.
Causing all kinds of trouble. Second one said it was bad installation. Oddly it was installed same as 1st.
Put in Well McLain going on 11 years no trouble at all.

 

[petek]

Louis. My radiators are just plain baseboard type that stretch along the floor, some are about 3 feet long some about 8-10 feet give or take and only have a bleeder valve on one end or the other.

Henrik; I'm using the external circulation pump from the old system.. the red motor below the new boiler in the picture. It does continue to run for about 5 minutes after the gas shuts off. I'll call the installer next week to see how or if I can extend that running time which I could on the old boiler.

Phil; there is definitely no external sensor. It's probably capable of having one added but I probably don't really need it. It's working really well so far in heating the house quickly and shutting down when reaching the t-stats setting. Of course the lows are only in the 40+ deg range at the moment.

 

[parunner58]

WOW 66 years, our house in Pennsylvania was built and 1955 with gas forced air heat. We had to replace it the year it turned 55 years old. It's yearly maintenance showed pin holes starting in the heat exchanger. In 1985 we added central air and the air was replaced twice before the furnace gave up.

Your new boiler looks like my current water heater after it would have take viagra, LOL. new water heater is the right side, old on the left.