New boiler after 66 years

[petek]

Well the day came when our old Hoffman boiler gave up the ghost, errr water leaking bigtime, after 66 years (1958) and had to be replaced. Sadly they don't make such monsters anymore and I was forced to buy a new wall mounted condensing boiler. The whole job took them 2.5 days with the worst part being getting the old one outta the basement and fenagling it to the front door over to the driveway. THey removed all the casing parts and what was left was a 700 lb 1/2 inch thick stainless steel tank combustion chamber about 3ft high, 2.5 wide and about 4 feet long. Up a narrow staircase. I was sweating more than the guys doing the grunt work thinking if it slips someones gonna be hurting or dead. THe new unit is a Navien 810 something or other. They also had to route the condensation tubing across the ceiling of the rek room and then up into the kitchen sink cabinet to tie it into the drain as believe it or not there is no floor drain in this house. How strange is that to have a hot water tank and a boiler and no floor drains. Same with the laundry room on the ground floor, no floor drain there either. Well let just say I don't think this thing is going to last near 66 years but so long as it outlives me with no problems, and I'm 68, then all will be good in my book. This is probably the first somewhat big purchase I've made with doing no research on as well. I just had to get it done.You can see the footprint of the old boiler where the 12 inch tiles are missing

 

[petek]

It's amazing as well to think that one guy carried this new one in its box from his van down into the basement and it took four big guys about an hour to get the old one out.

 

[combo52]

New condensing gas boiler

Yay I hope it works well, I’m gonna guess you’re gonna see a pretty good savings on your heating cost as well.

My cousin has a huge old house near the river in Elkhart, Indiana, and when I was there for his father‘s memorial service the other month he said he was gonna have to install a new boiler and the thing was in a box in the garage. It was about the size of a dehumidifier. He said it weighed about 70 pounds.

Yes, it probably will not last 66 years my cousin Luke had replaced the boiler in this house in Elkhart , about 20 years ago with some European high-efficiency boiler he cut his heating costs from over $300 a month to barely 100 on this huge house at the time but he could not get parts for the boiler and had to replace it again.

All in all the Boiler he put in 20 years ago. Saved him enough money to pay for several new boilers.

Let us know how your new one works out Pete.

 

[henene4]

The drain thing is really such an oddity.

Our heating room has not a single drain either, so the condensate drain routes all the way to the laundry area, a good 15 feet.

Hope this will serve you well and might even save you some heating costs in the long run!

 

[justjunque]

I would say congratulations. But, instead, I'll say I hope it works out well for you, and you're happy with it.
It looks like we're going to be getting a similar system installed, maybe next week.
Unlike a lot of people, I put "high efficiency" beneath "gets the job done to my satisfaction".
Ten or so years ago, when we got our current "higher efficiency" boiler, which replaced a big old-school HB Smith "low efficiency" boiler, we were hesitant. But, we were assured that it would work great, and save us money on gas bills. Well, we've never been completely happy with it. The old "inefficient" boiler did the job. If we had set our thermostat for 90 degrees, I have no doubt that thing would have gotten our house up to 90 degrees. On a bitter cold winter day, the more efficient boiler couldn't reach 70.
Now, due to circumstances beyond our control, this combi system is kind of our only real option.
I hope all of my fears turn out to be unfounded, and we end up being completely satisfied with its performance.
It also doesn't seem right that for all of our advances we've made in technology, we can't make things last as long as they used to. We're paying more for this system that I've ever paid for a vehicle. And, from what we hear, we'll be lucky if we get fifteen years out of it.
I don't mean to be Debbie Downer. I truly hope you have nothing but good luck with your new system.
And, I'm hoping and praying the same for us!

 

[kb0nes]

Pete, the new install looks great! I have been on the edge of a boiler replacement for a few years now. I have an American Standard 100kBTU boiler that was installed in 1965.

I'm not looking forward to the installation hassles, but I am looking forward to greatly increased efficiency and hopefully total elimination of the standing flu (home heat evacuation system). I'm looking at a Utica combi system with a full stainless hot water storage tank.

The new furnace isn't likely to last 60 years, but it will probably outlast me. And it will save enough energy in the process to make more early replacement a far greener alternative than the old one wasting all that gas...

 

[petek]

So far so good but what's a few days. I have one loop in the system that doesn't seem to be heating up, the laundry room and its adjacent small bathroom and may include the rad in the garage (which is slightly warm). The installers missed bleeding that one because I forget about it so I'll do it myself, just have to move the workbench and some junk. Naturally the bleeder valve couldn't be on the other end where it's free and open as that would make life much easier lol.

I'm a bit confused as to what temperature to set the boiler at. They had it at 160 degs but it goes up to 180 degrees. I'm imagining that setting it higher, say 180, will heat the livingroom more quickly reaching set temperature on the t-stat and shutting it off. Whereas having it set at 160 will raise the temperature more slowly and with that possibly allowing more time for distant areas of the house to warm up better... Not sure if I'm making sense or not?

 

[foraloysius]

Hi Pete,

That looks similar to what we have here. It looks like you are having two issues here. The temperature of the water should be set according to the temperature outside. The colder it gets, the higher the temperature in a hot water system needs to be. Besides that, the better the house is insulated, the lower the temperature can be set. Overhere some people have an outside sensor that measures the outside temperature and sets the thermostat of the water accordingly.

If the rooms further away from the boiler don't get warm enough, most likely there is something wrong with the hydronic balance. It is best to get someone professional to do that because it is difficult to do that yourself. Or take a course in doing it yourself. ;-)

 

[petek]

Thanks Louis. Your mentioning of the outside sensor makes some sense and now I do recollect reading (after the fact) that it is possibly an optional feature like the wifi capability. The contractor never mentioned anything about the outdoor sensor though. Perhaps because when he asked if I wanted a new programmable thermostat etc I told him I didn't because we are always at home and don't have any reason for it or the capability of changing settings from halfway across the world lol.
The whole house is basically one zone with I think 4 or 5 loops branching off a single pipe which runs the length of the house. There are however at least 4 valves that allow you to shut each loop off. Sadly I don't have the blueprint which would have made it a bit easier and there is no way of seeing the piping under half the house because it is inaccessible. I'm just assuming that because there are just the two radiators not getting any heat and the third just getting a little bit that there is an air block in that loop which when I get that area of the garage cleared off can bleed the one warm radiator and hopefully while crossing my fingers will resolve the problem

 

[foraloysius]

Yes Pete, an air block could be the problem when the system has been refilled. Or most radiators get too much water so there’s not much left for those that don’t get warm enough. Balancing the system could solve that.

 

[henene4]

I don't know how that system managed that, but raising or lowering the temperature shouldn't be necessary to get heat to all rooms.

Our heating systems have either internal or external recirculation pumps that move the water through the loops.
If they are internal, the system will regulate on/off cycle or quite often now actually recirculation rate.

If your old system had a pump that ran continuously, and this has an internally controlled pump, that might be shutting of/down to early.

Still would try bleeding first though, that seems most likely.

Outside temp sensors are kind of a standard equipment on most whole house heating systems.

Our system back home uses an approximate insulation setting, a given room temp setting and the outside temp to dynamically adjust target heating circuit temp.

Some newer, fully integrated systems actually have room sensors that directly talk to the heating system.
Our "older" system has regulating valves for each underfloor heating zone that vary the flow rate to each zone.
The temperature setting on the heating system itself is basically just an approximate target to set the heating curve.

Most systems further have programmable timing for both heating and hot water.
You set high and low target temps and times.
So during the night, the target temps get dropped to save some energy during these times.

You can take that quite far.
My mum has her hot water set to basically heat for one hour in the morning and then just shut off.
Since she is alone, the hot water tank is oversized. You still get perfectly serviceable hot water even late at night.

 

[foraloysius]

At 6 minutes intothis video there’s an explanation of balancing the radiators.

 

[kb0nes]

Pete, the variable water temp dependent system based on outdoor temperature is referred to as an Outdoor Reset control. They typically are programmable so you can set a base temperature as well as a ratio slope to vary the water temp. You should figure out if that is an installed option and learn how it is programmed, it may need tweaking. I'd be surprised if your system didn't have one.

If you have individual shut off valves, or even balancing valves for your zones you can use those to help purge the loops. Close off the other loops to help the pump generate enough adequate flow/pressure to circulate through the air locked loops. Then you can open up all the valves and adjust any balancing valves according to your needs. The air separator on top the expansion tank should vent any system air when it returns, although some may have manual air vents.

 

[polkanut]

The installers or a sales rep should be willing and able to come over and give you a quick tutorial on how to most effectively operate your new boiler. I'm sure it isn't complicated, but it has more electronics than your previous one for sure.

 

[eronie]

Good luck with your Navian boiler.
I've had 2 of them self destruct in less than 5 years.
Company wouldn't honor warranty on 2nd one.
See Mikey Pipes Plumbing on You Tube.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 14

Hi Tony, what went wrong with your boilers? Why did they refuse to cover the second one?

What was the warranty on the boiler?

 

[eronie]

They both leaked combustion gases inside the cabinet.
Causing all kinds of trouble. Second one said it was bad installation. Oddly it was installed same as 1st.
Put in Well McLain going on 11 years no trouble at all.

 

[petek]

Louis. My radiators are just plain baseboard type that stretch along the floor, some are about 3 feet long some about 8-10 feet give or take and only have a bleeder valve on one end or the other.

Henrik; I'm using the external circulation pump from the old system.. the red motor below the new boiler in the picture. It does continue to run for about 5 minutes after the gas shuts off. I'll call the installer next week to see how or if I can extend that running time which I could on the old boiler.

Phil; there is definitely no external sensor. It's probably capable of having one added but I probably don't really need it. It's working really well so far in heating the house quickly and shutting down when reaching the t-stats setting. Of course the lows are only in the 40+ deg range at the moment.

 

[parunner58]

WOW 66 years, our house in Pennsylvania was built and 1955 with gas forced air heat. We had to replace it the year it turned 55 years old. It's yearly maintenance showed pin holes starting in the heat exchanger. In 1985 we added central air and the air was replaced twice before the furnace gave up.

Your new boiler looks like my current water heater after it would have take viagra, LOL. new water heater is the right side, old on the left.

 

[petek]

Mike. I only replaced our gas water heater (rental from our gas company) a couple of years ago when it sprang a leak. When the gas company guy came to replace it they said they couldn't unless I had our chimney up to the latest code.. It shared the same flue with the old boiler. That was going to cost a fortune so we went to Lowes and bought a Rheem 50 gal electric for around $500 cdn which was a pretty easy install by ourselves, just had to have a plumber come in and do the water connection. I haven't seen much of any spike in our power bill because of it but then it's just the two of us.

I could have gone with a new combi-boiler and got rid of the water heater but decided against it and the contractor who I had put this new one in also said it was probably better to keep it because the combi boiler would cost significantly more. Plus I'm sort of wary of all these new fangled things LOL

 

[foraloysius]

Pete,

Does that mean the radiators don't have individual valves either? Just the five for the sections? If they have individual ones, it is possible there are screws on the valve to reduce the maximum opening. Not sure though if they ever were use on your side of the pond.

Great though the new boiler is heating things up quickly.

 

[petek]

Louis. Just the small bleeder valve on one end of each. The two in the basement don't even have those but they work fine. I imagine that is because they sit lower than the boiler in the adjacent room so air would likely never get trapped in them. I'm always a bit nervous of bleeding them in case they don't shut off completely because they are old. Last year I was doing it and I guess I didn't tighten one enough in the upstairs bathroom which continued to drip, perhaps one drip a minute or so, and within a week I had water dripping down the wall in the room below. Fortunately no damage to the ceiling or plaster. I started on the one in the laundry room last evening and had a bit of a panic as it was squirting water out and hard to stop so I figured I'll wait and do it another time when I know the plumbers are open , just in case I need to get them here quick. Here's what they look like with and without the front covers, excuse the dog hair etc LOL

 

[foraloysius]

Oh goodness Pete, those have antique value soon! lol. The valve in picture #2 seems like a valve that you could use to regulate the flow, but I would be hesitant to use them, you don't want indeed something go wrong with it.

Happy heating!

 

[petek]

Louis. As far as I know this baseboard style is still available. I've never seen those panel types. Many new houses have the pipes under the floor heating. Underfloor heating isn't a new thing as many think. There are a few subdivisions around us that were built in the late 1950's with underfloor hot water heating. Those houses are slab built (cement) and have no basement so if something goes wrong, and it has, they can't be repaired and the owner has to install a forced air system by adding ductwork through the attic I'm told.

 

[henene4]

They might be constructed differently, especially because of the age you mentioned - but underfloor heating can usually be fixed.

It is a HUGE mess to do so, but it's like any other pipe break.
Rip open the wall/floor, fix pipe, close hole.

Our houses underfloor heating was done in the 80s and already uses the typical PEX piping.
Metal is actually on the way out for most plumbing since it can corrode amd then break over the decades. PEX apparently does less so, especially when incased in cement and running at the relatively low pressures of heating systems.

Underfloor heating has become the defacto standard in german buildings because these systems can run at significantly lower temps because effectively, your whole floor becomes heating surface.

We're talking water temps even going below 100F, even in deep winter.
Those low temps can easily be achieved by heat pumps.

 

[ea56]

My family lived in an “L” shaped ranch style home built in 1947, right after the end of WWII that was built on a cement slab. It had radiant heating in the floors. It was the most comfortably heated home that I’ve ever lived in. There was a boiler in a room off of the laundry room. We lived there from Feb 1958 until May 1962. The boiler would sometimes start to clank because it was overheating. Being the oldest kid my Dad taught he how to turn off the boiler if it started to clank and showed me what to look for on the temp gauge that would indicate overheating.

All the floors in hallway, kitchen, laundry room, my brothers and my bedroom, my sisters bedroom and the three bathrooms were covered with asphalt tiles, the family room, living room, and dining room was covered with cork tiles, while the master bedroom was carpeted.

We had a leak once in the kitchen floor and I recall that it was discovered due to a small pool of water on the floor. They had to jack hammer that section of the floor to locate the leaking copper pipe and then repair it.

This was really a beautiful home, a true MCM home if ever there was one.

Eddie

 

[justjunque]

Petek

Glad things are going pretty well so far.
The crew just showed up this morning to start our job.
I misunderstood initially, and thought your new system was a combi. That's what we're getting. I wish we had more time to do our research. We may have been better off to go with a "boiler" more like yours, and a separate water heater. But, the nights are getting colder here, and our water heater had just started leaking ever so slightly. So, we went along with what the HVAC guys recommended.
All I can tell you at this point, is that it's going to be a Bosch combi boiler.
And, it's costing more than we've ever paid for any of our vehicles. Believe me. I'm not bragging. I'm crying on your collective shoulders. Especially, since I've already built up in my mind that we're not going to be happy with its performance.
I hope I'm wrong.

 

[combo52]

New Combi boiler

Reply number 26, there’s no reason to believe that this system shouldn’t work far better than what you had before and save you a good bit of gas.

I don’t see any point in being negative about something like that. Something that is costing this much should work beautifully.

New appliances, new cars, new furnaces, and air-conditioning almost always work better than what you had before. It’s a very rare exception when something doesn’t work as well as what you used to have.

John

 

[justjunque]

Hi John.
Believe me. I don't enjoy being negative.
If I can give you a little back story:
When we bought our house, it had a big H.B. Smith boiler that worked flawlessly. No matter how cold it was outside, or how high we turned up the thermostat, it never failed to meet our demands.
Someone came in to do an energy audit. They managed to scare us into believing that our system was about to fail, it was installed wrong, it was horribly inefficient, etc.
As first time homeowners, we didn't know. We took their word for it, and had a new, "higher efficiency" boiler installed. It was never really up to the task. On bitter cold winter days/nights, it would run continuously, but could never get the house up to even 70 degrees. We ended up having to supplement with electric space heaters; significantly increasing our electric bill.
So, after that very expensive negative experience, we're a bit leery of something else now that's even higher efficiency.
Please don't think I don't care about the environment. I do. But, I'd gladly sacrifice a little "efficiency", and pay a little higher gas bill, for the peace of mind of knowing that our house is going to be as warm as we want it. I'm all for putting out less pollution, but I still want the equipment to get the job done; especially, considering what it costs.

 

[kb0nes]

Higher efficiency means that you extract more BTU's from the fuel consumed.

If the newer system didn't perform it was because it was improperly sized. poorly installed or setup incorrectly.

It isn't efficiency that is the enemy here. But indeed in these forums somehow efficiency is a idea that is frowned upon.