New boiler after 66 years

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Hi Phil,

I apologize if I used the term incorrectly.
I don't have anywhere near John's, or probably your knowledge and experience. And I have nothing but respect for that knowledge and experience.
But, the only thing I have to go on is the negative experience we had with what was described as a higher efficiency system.
We paid a lot for it, and had it installed by one of the most reputable businesses in the area. So, we trusted that they gave us the right system for our needs.
I can't stress enough that I have nothing against efficiency, saving money, or putting out less emissions.
All I ask is that we don't have to compromise performance in the process. And these combi boilers, and tankless hot water are completely foreign to us.
Maybe our new system will be great, and I'll find that I was worried for no reason. I hope that's the case!
Thank you for your input.
 
Barry,
I’m really sorry that you spent a lot of money already on a new heating system when you originally bought your home. Whatever it cost it was a big investment that you had every right to have expected to meet your heating needs for many years to come. What a shame that you are having to spend money all over again for another heating system.

Perhaps the company that installed your current inadequate heating system didn’t install a system large enough to meet your homes heating needs, or installed it improperly? At any rate I didn’t get the impression that you were anti energy efficiency, but rather that you just want a system that will keep your home adequately warm in the winter months.

If this new system doesn’t perform satisfactorily make sure that you let the company that installed it know right away and insist that they make it right. After all you’re not made of money and you deserve to get a heating system that works properly. Its the job of these guys to KNOW how large a system you need to meet your needs, thats what they are getting paid for. Good luck!

Eddie[this post was last edited: 10/24/2023-17:57]
 
Thank you, Eddie.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I'd love to save money on utilities in the process. But, what I really want is a system that does what we need, and does it well.
We do suspect that the previous company did set us up with a boiler that was undersized; although they denied that. In fact, they told us that our house fell in between two sizes, and they gave us the size up. So, if anything, it should have been slightly more than we needed.
If the new system proves to be inadequate, we will definitely keep on the new company to do something about it. But, we actually did try multiple times to get the previous guys to make it right. At one point, the then owner of the company even came to our house. But, they always insisted that whatever problems we were having were no fault of theirs.
I feel bad that we're spending so much time discussing our system that isn't even fully installed yet, when this started out as a discussion of Petek's new boiler. I wasn't trying to hijack.
But, I do appreciate your understanding. And, I hope everything turns out fine. For us, as well as Petek.
 
Petek,

In 2009 I replaced my woodstove in the basement and all the room electric baseboard heaters with a Trane boiler fired by propane and hot water baseboard heaters. I have 5 zones individually controlled - master bedroom, guest bedroom, bathroom, kitchen/dining/living/front entrance and basement family room. The utility room with the boiler, washer/dryer has 2 baseboard heaters that are on all the time when the circulating pump is operating. When any of the zones calls for heat, the circulating pump operates and when the water temp. goes down to 160 F, the burner fires up and shuts off when the water temp. reaches 180 F. I love the radiant heat - very uniform and silent. Fortunately the system had a 10 year warranty. I have had to get one of the manifolds replaced twice because it would leak once the system had cooled right down after the heating season ended. Also, in 2017, when the heating contractor was doing its seasonal maintenance check and cleaning, the boiler would not fire up. It was determined a new igniter was required. After waiting 6 months (all through the summer/fall), it was discovered that the part was no longer available. They ended up having to replace the entire boiler...at no charge. The new boiler is a Weil-McLean. So far it has worked well. I have never adjusted the temperature of the water or at what temp. the boiler turns on/off from what the installers set it at.

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Barry; Let us know how your new combi boiler works out.. Interested to know.

Gary; I asked about on the floor models but my contractor said they didn't sell those. btw is that a high effc. condensing boiler or just a straight boiler as it seems to have the standard galvanized exhaust and not the smaller pvc stuff?
 
They finished our install today.
First impressions:
It runs much more quietly than our previous system; which, itself, was quiet. But, it had to be tied into a separate power vent that was suspended from the floor joists. That part was not quiet.
Also, it takes longer now for hot water to reach the faucet.
It's way too soon to know how happy we'll be with it in general. And, the price tag will hurt for some time. But, it seems promising.
I took a couple of pictures at the end of day one, before everything wes hooked up.
Here's the label from the carton, if anyone is interested. And a glimpse inside the unit itself. I have no idea what I'm looking at, but I'm sure some of you do.

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Something ain't right

Day 1 report:
They're going to have to come back. Somehow, the unit is having a mind of its own, and not responding to the thermostat.
I like it a little cooler to sleep. So, last night, I set it for 65, and turned in. Through the night, I got up, and it was 75 in the house. This morning, it's 77. And the radiators are still putting out heat. I set it to "Off" on the two thermostats, and I actually have windows open at this point.
 
Gee Barry that’s a pisser! I’m sorry that you’re having this trouble already. But just maybe its a good thing that it showed up right away and the problem only requires a minor tweak to the thermostat, or the thermostat is defective and needs replacement. With luck after they are out to assess the situation it’ll be fixed and problem free after that.

Good luck!

Eddie
 
Thanks.
We’re hoping maybe it’s a wonky thermostat. They did put new ones in both of our zones. But, they’re nothing fancy. Just basic digital Honeywell units.
It’s like the boiler isn’t responding to one or both of them. Actually, it seems like the upstairs didn’t keep getting hotter. So, maybe that one is working properly. Right now, we have both of them set to “Off”, but the boiler is still cranking away.
They’ll be here this afternoon to check it out.
 
In my frustration over it being so hot in here, I forgot to mention that our hot water is intermittent.
It gets hot, but then starts cooling down until it's full cold. Then, gradually, it gets hot again.
 
That almost sounds like they didn't set up the thermostat correctly---there are settings for hot air (i.e. fast response expectations for turn on/turn off) and settings for hot water (slow response expectations for turn on/turn off) and mixing them up is a nightmare.

I had a hot water system in a house in Chicago which was wonderful, but ISTR a couple of false starts/trips to the Home Depot when replacing the original thermostat with a set-back one that was appropriate for hot water convected heat.
 
Well, they put a band-aid on it for now.
The tech got the heat to stop, and we still have hot water, although it's still inconsistent.
The only thing he could tell us was that it wasn't a thermostat problem.
They couldn't figure it out without help from Bosch tech support. And, they were gone for the day by the time the tech was able to get to our house.
So, some time soon, they'll be back; armed with the assistance of Bosch.
At this point, I'm just thankful it's not still getting hotter in here.
 
Another tech came this afternoon.
While on the phone with Bosch, he found a wiring error. He corrected it, but something blew inside the control module. So, that will have to be repaired or replaced now.
In the meantime, the heat is off, and we have hot water. Actually, he thinks that what he did today will probably fix our intermittent hot water problem. Because of the error in the wiring, the call for hot water wasn't completely overriding the call for heat. Even though nobody was actually calling for heat.
They should be back, the beginning of next week to hopefully get us fully operational.
We should be fine without heat until then. Tomorrow is supposed to be 80 degrees. And there's no real bitter cold in the immediate forecast.
 
That all sounds super frustrating Barry. I'm sort of glad I stuck with the old style hot water tank.

As for mine. I bled the air on the 3 non working rads (bathroom,laundry/garage) and lo and behold I now have them all working.

I noticed or should I say was sort of woke up from some water gurgling in my bedroom the other night so I bled that one as well but still heard it a little this morning just after I'd awoken, not near as noticeable. But I'll give it another go on Monday. Other than that it seems to be working quite well.
 
Petek

Glad to hear.
We're starting to think maybe we should have gone with a conventional water heater too. But, we have some ridiculous issue with things not venting properly. That's how we ended up with the noisy power vent on the previous system.
And, unfortunately, whatever they did on their last visit, that they were hoping would have solved our intermittent hot water issue, did not solve it. It will run hot for a couple of minutes, then gradually cool off until it's ice cold. Then, it gradually heats up again.
It is frustrating. I don't know why we can't just get a system that does what it's supposed to do, with no gremlins.
 
Unfortunately Barry, its beginning to look like the crew that installed your new system is using your home for On The Job Training. That you paid more for this new heating and hot water system than you’ve paid for your vehicles and you still don’t have reliable heat or hot water is terrible to say the least! I’d be hopping mad if I were you.

This isn’t rocket science! Maybe you need to speak with the owner of the company and demand that he get someone out to your home that knows what they’re doing and not leave until the whole shebang is working like its supposed to.

I feel for you brother.

Eddie
 
The drama continues.
The tech who came yesterday was the same one who, with the help of Bosch support, diagnosed the wiring problem. He installed the new part that had gotten fried as a result of the incorrect wiring.
Now, we have heat that we can control from the thermostats. Sort of.
They work now, and the boiler will cycle off when the set temperature is reached. The problem now is that the zone one stat is controlling zone two, and vice versa. Sort of. The zone one stat seems to be controlling part of zone one, and all of zone two. He believes it's now a plumbing issue, since he just corrected the electronics; which is his area of expertise.
Tomorrow, the plumbing tech or crew is coming.
And, we still have the intermittent hot water issue for them to try and sort out as well.
We're getting our first below freezing weather this week, so I'm thankful that at least we have both heat and hot water; even if they are both somewhat wonky.
 
Barry, I was wondering how this issue was going for you, thanks for checking in and letting us know. At least there is some progress and you do have heat, although not controllable in the way it should be. I sounds like the guy that corrected the thermostat problem is probably correct about the plumbing for both stations 1 and 2 being somehow mixed up. Hopefully this will be an easy correction to make, although if it requires redoing the pipe work it could be a time consuming job.

As far as the intermittent hot water it may be that you need more than one tankless water heater, if you have gone tankless. Or go back to a traditional holding tank water heater to assure a dependable supply of hot water

I’m wishing you good luck in finally getting this corrected once and for all. There’s an old saying, “the third time is a charm”, hope this will apply with the third return visit by the heating contractor.

Eddie
 
So aggravating for sure Barry. Particularly when you expect these people to know what they're doing. If you had two zone controls before and they were working properly how would that have anything to do with the plumbing needing rejigged I don't get.
 
Nice setup! Looks relatively simple which is always good. It certainly won't last 66 years but hopefully it gives you many years of trouble free service and lots of fuel savings. I think pretty much every modern condensing boiler comes with an outdoor reset control. I would certainly do some research on this on yours if you haven't and get it dialed in, that will help maximize comfort and efficiency.

One thing to note with fin/tube baseboard like you have is it needs to operate at fairly high temperatures to work properly since it is a convection style heating system rather than radiant or radiant/convection (like cast iron radiators) which will require the boiler to operate above the condensing range which is 140° or above water supply temp and will negate some of the savings benefits of having a condensing boiler.

Cast iron baseboard, cast iron radiators, or radiant floor heat all heat quite well with supply water temps below 140° and condensing boilers work most efficiently in those conditions.

To those commenting on longevity of modern boilers, sure nothing will last quite as long as stuff from 50-60 years ago but traditional cast iron sectional boilers still exist today that will still easily last 25-30 years. The higher tech condensing boilers have been around for quite awhile now and I think 20 years is a good life expectancy for those.
 
Problems with new hot water boiler system

Hi Barry, hopefully they’ll get these problems sorted out quickly if zones one in two or backwards that’s not a plumbing problem that’s an electrical problem, makes me question that technicians ability that’s for sure.

There should be no reason why there isn’t hot water at your faucets in the same length of time you had with the old system.

Have you been in touch with the owner of this company? it sounds like it’s time to get after them a little bit

Does this company have a good reputation for service in your area?

Hope it all gets worked out soon, John.
 
Very awkward that you don't always get warm water. I don't know how the part is called in English, but as soon as you open a tap for warm water, it should automatically shut off the heating part and give hot water immediately.

Some of the combo boilers here have a setting on it that you can turn that off, but noone does that here. Perhaps it is in the settings of that particular part is broken.

Another possibility is that the demand for hot water is too small to activate the hot water side. The plumbing should not be an issue unless you have an extreme for of flow restrictor on some tap.

Just a few thoughts.
 
My 28 year old New Yorker boiler has worked fine all these years with a few minor repairs. My problem is finding another service person. My guy I had for years has retired and all the oil burner service companies around here refuse to touch your system unless you buy your oil from them. I buy oil in bulk, once a year and get a good discount. So far any recommendations for an independent service person has not worked out.
 
We may be all set now

Today, a two man team, including a long time employee who trains techs, came out.
There were two issues. Yes, the two zones were reversed. But, as the tech from the other day noted, he couldn't just swap them around, because there was a plumbing issue also. The zone one stat was heating zone two, and two rooms in zone one.
After today's visit, that's all straightened out.
The hot water not staying hot may be a case of user error. We've always tried to conserve water as much as possible. But, they were telling us today, these type of systems have trouble maintaining hot water if you don't meet a minimum gpm flow rate. By us opening the hot tap only as much as we absolutely need, and then tempering it down with cold, we're not meeting the demand.
To try to address a couple of things that you've asked:
This is a reputable company, that's been around since the late '60s or early '70s.
And, I forget if someone specifically asked, but the system is set so that our hot water is 120 degrees at the tap.
We got wet snow mixed with rain today, and it's supposed to be in the 20s overnight tonight. So, I'm very thankful that we have heat, and that we can actually control it from the appropriate thermostat!
 

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