New Persil launch "once in a decade break throuh"

[launderess]

Well the "problem" such as it tis comes from consumers for various reasons still wanting powders, thus forcing detergent manufactures to find ways that will satisfy that demand but also those of others.

Here in the USA at least "big box" powders of old (which usually if not always had large amounts of fillers) have given way to various "ultra" or compact versions. These formulas not only save in terms of transportation, stocking and other associated costs, but consumers don't need and environment is better off without all those fillers.

In the 1990's detergent makers thought a return to the tablet format was the way to go. That didn't work out so well (again), and once again tabs were withdrawn from the market. So what next?

While liquid, gels or whatever fluid format seems to have edged out powders, not everyone is thrilled. IIRC it was the German consumer testing group that bemoaned the "polluting" aspects of some liquid/fluid detergents.

Yes, commercial laundry detergent powders still come in huge containers. However if you examine the recommended dosages often it is a few to several ounces/grams for 100lbs of wash. That is pretty powerful stuff.

 

[launderess]

Dosing devices

Well the cap from Ariel Excel gel detergents is useless in the Oko-Lavamat. The thing uses so little water in wash that it can take ages (if ever) for entire gel to be flushed out of that cap. For liquid products it is wonderful IMHO.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"...to be flushed out of that cap"

That's what I liked about the Zanussi IZ machine. The pumped recirculating jet actually flushed dosing devices clear of detergent.

(I was using Lever's soft, pliable Radion ball, with P&G's Ariel liquid, at the time).

 

[launderess]

If one could open the machine and get our Lavamat's recirculation spray to aim inside cap and flush detergent out, would be right as rain. Sadly this isn't possible so am left with few options if want to use.

Sometimes will wait for machine to have filled with enough water but still not deactivated "Open Door" button, stop machine reach in and waggle the cap of detergent in water which has collected so far at bottom of tub. It is either this or take a bit of clothing or whatever and scoop product out.

Needless to say that Ariel gel in Alpine Fresh scent rarely sees use in the AEG. It is all too much bother..... *LOL*

 

[rolls_rapide]

Hmm.

I'll tell you what I did, when I discovered Ariel liquid was not flushed clear from the dispenser drawer of my new machine. It is more viscous than store brands.

I had an old 1 litre detergent bottle, empty, with screw cap. I half filled it with Ariel, added cold water slowly to almost fill the bottle, replaced the cap, and rocked the bottle gently like a seesaw several times to mix the detergent, not to create foam.

The detergent is now easily dosed by the bottle cap, via the drawer, and behaves more like shop brands, easily flushed from the drawer.

 

[mamapinky]

Problem with adding water to the detergent is water will grow bacterias quickly. I'm not sure if there's enough preservatives in that detergent to also keep the water safe. Reason I know this is neighbor was not happy about her son using all the liquid bath soap so quickly so she removed half and added water..well son left and returned several weeks later and wasn't long before he ended up with some kinda skin infection that the doctor blames the water in the soap caused. This kid had no medical so mother paid out of pocket I'd say she didn't save anything adding water to that soap. Lol

 

[launderess]

In general unless going to be dispensed/used at once one should *NEVER* add tap water to dilute anything. Especially if it is to be left sitting.

All fluid products are made with preservatives to keep germ/mould and other nasty things at bay or count low enough not to cause harm. Tap water is NOT sterile and the use of it will introduce bacteria and all sorts into said product. Even in nursing/medicine when sterile water is introduced to make up a solution (under sterile conditions) the solution does not have an infinite "shelf life".

Even worse whatever is lurking in that tap water may find nice things to feast and grow upon in product it has been introduced.

 

[mrsalvo]

"I am wondering why exactly the fragrances are SO strong. Is it an attempt to cover up horrible chemical smells of modern formulations?"

Rolls_Rapide, I think you hit the nail right on the head!! I think that is exactly why the scents are so strong. As stated in a thread a couple of months ago about visiting friends & relatives, one relative washed towels in cold water with All Free & Clear and using the same fabric softner, evidently lots of it. The towels reeked of a strong industrial chemical smell, overlaid with a distinctive moldy odor as well. The whole experience was...well, you can only imagine. I unscrewed a cap from All and it smelled strongly industrial, so much for free and clear.
My 2 cents.

Barry

 

[dixan]

"Since this new product is designed to go into wash tub mayhaps lack of bleaching agents is a way to avoid possibility of textile damage."

Interesting logic but not quite correct in my oppinion. The product is not designed to go into wash tub; it have to put into the drum because obviously during tests there were problems with dissolving when put in the drawer. It was the same with the first versions of Ariel compact powder and Persil/Skip/OMO tablets - they sold these products with a net bags to be put in the drum. However Ariel compact powder and Persil/Skip/OMO tablets did contain oxygen bleach and didn't damage anything.
The lack of bleach in Powergems is maybe because they couldn't incorporate it in the formula with the same level of compactation and mainly - concentration, effectiveness and stability.
Henkel have product called Persil Power-Mix Caps - in one compartment of the cap there is liquid and in the other - powder. In Power-Mix Caps for whites the powder contained oxygen bleach in the first bathes. However the powder part was very unstable for some reason and from white was turning brown for several months. Now the formula don't contain bleach.
In the final, there is belief that "ultra" or compact powder is more concentrated because they remove part of the fillers. It's not that simple. Indeed, they decrease the filler level but the main is the granulation technology used in compact powders. Remove the fillers from a powder granulated in the traditional way and you will have a mess.

 

[mrboilwash]

Dixan, I don`t like insolubles like zeolithes as well so I switched to liquids a long time ago. Don`t miss the bleach as I can still add some H2O2 based stain remover when really needed. Whether EDTA is toxic or not is disputable, but as a matter of fact most of it won`t be removed in waste water treatment. However biodergadability in the environment is a very slow process and for the worst part it`ll leach out heavy metals from sediments before it finally breaks down.

I agree that zeolithes are kind of obsolete and have a bunch of disadvantages like being abrasive, they increase the amount of useless sludge in waste water treatment and their remaining dust in clothes is another problem.
The fact that most powders decreased zeolithe content significantly stands only true for traditional big box powders but not for compact powders. According to our consumer testing group the main reason for this trend is the high costs of zeolites. It may also be worth mentioning that in the last test of powders compact Ariel for example did a brilliant job and the big box one failed compleately. All other compacts also did a better job than their traditional counterparts. This is probably not only the result of reduced amounts of zeolithes but still.

Laundress, we`ve been told a lot in the past by our consumer group and the Bundesumweltamt (Environmental Agency) regarding what detergents we should use in terms of pollution and some opinions seem to have changed.
They always preferred compacts over big box ones because traditional powders contain lots of salts like sodium sulfate as filler which may end up in ground water. Salt cannot be removed in waste water treatment and threatens our wells. I wonder why this isn`t a problem in the States where whole house water softeners are so commonplace.
Liquids have been demonized for years mainly because of their very high surfactant content But apparently formulars have changed now and in terms of pollution haven`t heard anything negative about them anymore.

 

[dixan]

Unfortunately compact powders are available only in Germany and two-three other countries. It's normal to be better - they contain higher amounts of bleach and surfactants. The zeolite content in compact powders can't be decreased with the current granulation technology.

I know the results from the test you mention. It's strange how private label products are better than brands like Ariel or Persil. For example, the best traditional powder is Formil (Lidl own brand); Tandil compact (Aldi) is better than Megaperls. Good job, Dalli Werke!
The only compact powder we have here is Denkmit (DM drugstore; I think it's manufactured by Thurn Produkte... or Dalli, I'm nor sure). I really like it's whitening power. Lidl persist and don't import their Formil compact.

 

[launderess]

German Testing

http://www.testberichte.de/a/waschmittel/magazin/test-stiftung-warentest-11-2014/409636.html

https://www.test.de/Colorwaschmittel-Aldi-und-Co-so-gut-wie-Persil-1160456-2160456/

It is amazing that for both color and universal detergents Aldi beats or is just as good as Persil. Interesting that Lenor detergents rank nearly always dead last.

 

[launderess]

Have some German professional laundry detergent

In my stash made by Kreussler chemie. It is for colors so contains no bleach, but also has nil Zeolites. Am here to tell you the stuff is very concentrated but does an excellent job on all sort of laundry from dress shirts to bed/table linens. It also is one of the most clean rinsing detergents one has in our stash.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Ariel Test Results

When Which? tested our detergents, they ranked Lidl's Formil, just ahead of Ariel for cleaning performance.

Ariel is sold here as a 'big box' powder, but there has been some form of compaction/concentration over the past few years.

The only liquid to get a decent result for keeping white articles bright, was Unilever's Persil.

 

[launderess]

"It's strange how private label products are better than brands like Ariel or Persil."

Think much depends upon where these private label products are sourced.

Dalli Werke and Kreussler Chemie aren't exactly poor companies producing cheap imitation products. IIRC one or both are where Miele turned for their private label laundry products.

Now that Henkel has firmly taken Dial into hand it will be interesting to see if serious competition arises against P&G. Ever since Tide came onto the scene P&G has been the dominate laundry product producer in the USA. Tide simply is the top dog to take on. However the past recession exposed chinks in that armor as people discovered they can get decent enough to acceptable washing from less expensive products.

Am not surprised Henkel killed off Wisk. Certain formulas of Wisk detergent ranked rather high in Consumer Reports testing in past, some coming quite near Tide.

 

[dixan]

Launderess, I find it strange, because usually private label products are much cheaper than branded ones. Cheap means that some ingredients are missing or the quantity is lower. Take the bleaching system: for a good bleaching system you need certain ratio between persalt and activator. Activators are expensive, so cheap products don't contain activator or they contain very low amount of it. It means poor bleaching action. However, it's not the case with Dalli's products (the manufacturer of Formil, Tandil and many other home brands). Their powders contain great bleaching system, various sorts of enzymes, surfactants in good levels... Good for them!
Dalli is my favourite private label manufacturer - from shampoos, conditioners and creams to cleaning products and detergents, the quality is excellent and the prices are very nice. May I be excused by the guys in the UK, but McBride's products are horrible.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"McBride's products are horrible"

Philistine! Non-believer! I am deeply shocked! LOL

I know exactly what you mean...

A few years ago, ALDI in the UK had Almat washing tablets sourced from Dalli Werke. They had five enzymes (protease, amylase, cellulase, lipase, mannanase). Quite a nice fragrance too, a sweet, peppery type smell.

The latest formulation is from McBride. Three enzymes (protease, amylase, lipase). The fragrance is different - it reminds me of the circular blue "Spring Bouquet" air-freshener fitted to Hoover Ltd's Turbopower cleaners. Not my favourite.

I've tried McBride's 'Clean & Fresh' powder. The fragrance was like Plasticine modelling material. One enzyme, protease. Minimal suds - but I don't know if that was because of a poor ratio of surfactants to fillers, or whether it was actually designed to be a lower foaming powder. I imagine the former.

 

[dixan]

Aside from the smell, McBride formulations are bad. Not good quality at all. And this is the largest private label manufacturer in Europe... I wonder why.

 

[michael]

Quite impressed!

I saw the new Persil power gems for sale in Asda..£11.00 for a 19 wash bottle...I bought it and did a wash this morning..Minimum iron 40 in my Miele..a mixed wash of bedding, towels and tea towels..i, too put them in the drawer rather than the drum.
I wasn't too impressed with the smell when I took the washing out and thought it cleaned "ok".i hung it out and went to work. when I bought the washing in ,however...WOW everything was really bright which shocked me and the smell actually was nice, not overpowering, but fresh! I have a black wash to do tonight and am in two minds if I should use it for that!

 

[rolls_rapide]

"£11.00 for a 19 wash bottle"

That price would really rankle with me. I wouldn't pay it.

 

[aquarius1984]

Asda here have the 12 wash packs for £2.50. They're not worth that price tbh over the normal powder

 

[michael]

Sorry..my mistake

The bottle of power gems I bought was 30 wash...not 19 wash for £11.00. Still expensive, I know. I'm just doing a black wash with them, instead of using Surf black liquid...Hope it will be ok...

 

[michael]

Actually NOT impressed!

I've just hung out my black wash, washed in the new Persil on a dark wash 40. I normally wash in Surf black liquid with a scoop of vanish with no problem. I can be a messy pup and one of my t shirts had an oil based stain...well, it done nothing!..its back in the basket for next weeks wash!!
For the cost of this "premium" detergent, I would have expected it to wash as well as a liquid with vanish, so I won't be buying again...I will use it on the coloured bedding.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Oil based stain

I had an oil based stain too, splashes from cooking oil.

I washed the offending article once with Tesco Bio tablets (stain still present after drying).

Washed a second time with the same tablets - stain still there after drying.

Washed a third time, this time with Lidl's Formil Bio Powder. The stain is now gone completely.

 

[michael]

Interesting Rolls_rapide

I have never tried their bio powder. I tried the colour powder one once and it turned to stone in the drawer...it actually took the smooth surface of the plastic off so I never used again!Do you have any issues with the bio powder or is it worth trying?
Regards
Michael

 

[rolls_rapide]

"took the smooth surface off the plastic"

That has happened with both my mum's and my sister's Bosch machines - and they use standard Ariel!

The smooth plastic becomes very, very rough, almost as though it is deteriorating. Not only the drawer, but the bottom of the soap box too - where the tidemark is left, as the dissolving powder has been sluiced away. Pretty weird. I think it must be to do with zeolite content.

I did notice a small blob of undissolved Lidl Formil in my machine, about the size of a grape seed. Nothing major, but I have heard of Aldi's powder clumping in the drawer.

I quite like Lidl's Formil, due to the reasonably subdued fragrance.

I can't abide Ariel after the items have dried - I'm absolutely sure they've got Frebreeze rubbish in there - even in the standard powder. It's vile.

 

[michael]

Totally agree

I, too cannot stand the STENCH of Ariel!Years ago, it had a pleasant fresh smell and was an excellent powder...now, if a customer comes in the shop,i can tell that awful smell straight away!

 

[dixan]

Formil in the UK and the one here are the same. It's great detergent. The German version is somehow better. I've never had any residues in the drawer or on the clothes; it removes all the stains and it's cheap. I don't really like liquids, but I tried Formil superconcentrated liquid detergent and I have to say I'm impressed.
I wonder do you have any other detergent brands in Lidl? I mean, Lidl own brands, not Ariel, Persil, etc. We have Formil as TOL and also we have MaxiTrat and LEL as BOL.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Lidl's own detergents

No, my local Lidl only has "Formil" laundry detergents. I seem to vaguely remember years ago, the "Maxitrat" brand. I wonder if that was a 'special promotion' at the time?

Usually, these days, our 'specials' are the giant size packs of Formil 'Tropical' Powder or some such.

I noticed too, that Formil Bio tablets aren't carried (green box), but the Non-Bio tablets (blue box) are still in stock, as are the ones in the lilac box.

 

[michael]

Whites wash with the new Persil

I did a boil wash with the new Persil pearls...I have had to do it again using good old Persil bio powder...All the tea towels came out with the stains still in, in fact, I swear there was more stains than what they went in with!...lol...
Seriously though, a hygiene 95 wash with the powder has never let me down..i am sooo disappointed with these pearls, I think they will disappear soon,i cant be the only one let down