Half-Italian on my mom's side . . .
She always called it sauce. Gravy is what you make from meat or poultry pan drippings.
She always called it sauce. Gravy is what you make from meat or poultry pan drippings.
OK... What do you call Tomato Sauce... "Sauce" or "Gravy" ???
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Vodka red tomato sauce
I'm sorry, but that is definitely not from Italy. A real Sicilian mama would never use vodka in one of her recipes. Most likely it comes from Sicilians in the USA who adepted their recipes.
I'm sorry, but that is definitely not from Italy. A real Sicilian mama would never use vodka in one of her recipes. Most likely it comes from Sicilians in the USA who adepted their recipes.
My late grandmother who came from southern Italy always called it sauce. She called all pasta macaroni. We lived in Pittsburgh, she almost always had meatballs, but we used the sauce like a gravy on any type of meat she may have served.
washerboy
Well-known member
Deep South
Never heard it called gravy...it's sauce. Gravy is meat drippings/fat mixed with flour/corn starch, water or milk cooked until thick. To each his own is suppose
Never heard it called gravy...it's sauce. Gravy is meat drippings/fat mixed with flour/corn starch, water or milk cooked until thick. To each his own is suppose
Re: retro-man comment above "red gravy"
I did a quick search and found this. Website says "for those who like marinara but like a smooth texture". Note it also states "pasta sauce" on the lower part of the label.
I did a quick search and found this. Website says "for those who like marinara but like a smooth texture". Note it also states "pasta sauce" on the lower part of the label.
gyrafoam
Well-known member
If you have lived in the North East triangle, you get used to people describing sauce as gravy especially in New Joisey. I love it either way and when in Rome---------.
vacerator
Well-known member
Yes, I'm certain
vodka sauce didn't originate in Italy. However, Italian specialty markets here make it as a standard variety.
Italy has several different styles of cuisine for the same foods. In Rome, gnocci is usually served with cheese, and no sauce, or a light wine with butter sauce.
My Sicilian born grandma always served it with her all day cooked meat tomato sauce.
She also had this huge porcelain table top board for polenta. She's dump it on there, spread it out, and then the sauce, sazitza (sausage and meatballs went over it all. No plates, just sit down with a fork and mangia.
vodka sauce didn't originate in Italy. However, Italian specialty markets here make it as a standard variety.
Italy has several different styles of cuisine for the same foods. In Rome, gnocci is usually served with cheese, and no sauce, or a light wine with butter sauce.
My Sicilian born grandma always served it with her all day cooked meat tomato sauce.
She also had this huge porcelain table top board for polenta. She's dump it on there, spread it out, and then the sauce, sazitza (sausage and meatballs went over it all. No plates, just sit down with a fork and mangia.
I found this about a vodka sauce:
http://www.pasta-recipes-by-italians.com/vodka-sauce-recipe.html
I guess when it comes to gnocchi, it depends on the region what kind of sauce you eat with it. Gnocchi and melted butter and sage is a classic combination, but I know indeed with a tomatoe sauce or so.
A lot of the Italian recipes used in the USA are often Americanized recipes like spaghetti and meatballs. AFAIK there is a region (forgot which one) where they first eat pasta with the tomato sauce and in the next course the meatballs with vegetables but never spaghetti in one course with the meatballs.
Gennaro Contaldo recently made a video about childhood memories cooking spaghetti and meatballs. He got a lot of comment on that video, that it was not an Italian recipe. Also Anthony Bourdain got a lot of disdain from some Italians when he served them spaghetti and meatballs as Italian food.
http://www.pasta-recipes-by-italians.com/vodka-sauce-recipe.html
I guess when it comes to gnocchi, it depends on the region what kind of sauce you eat with it. Gnocchi and melted butter and sage is a classic combination, but I know indeed with a tomatoe sauce or so.
A lot of the Italian recipes used in the USA are often Americanized recipes like spaghetti and meatballs. AFAIK there is a region (forgot which one) where they first eat pasta with the tomato sauce and in the next course the meatballs with vegetables but never spaghetti in one course with the meatballs.
Gennaro Contaldo recently made a video about childhood memories cooking spaghetti and meatballs. He got a lot of comment on that video, that it was not an Italian recipe. Also Anthony Bourdain got a lot of disdain from some Italians when he served them spaghetti and meatballs as Italian food.
I've always understood gravy to be made in a pan that had meat in it, so a tomato gravy was made in a pan that meat was cooked in. Tomato sauce is just that, nothing to do with meat in the cooking process. Then you have your white gravy, brown gravy, chicken gravy, turkey gravy but how about this curve ball?
I have worked around a lot of Indian families (not Native American) and they always make gravy. It is not sauce, I was specifically told this. Generally tomato based, but it is never sauce.
I have worked around a lot of Indian families (not Native American) and they always make gravy. It is not sauce, I was specifically told this. Generally tomato based, but it is never sauce.
vacerator
Well-known member
I guarantee that if
you were to visit my 5th. cousin's tratorria in Civitella Roveto Italy, near Avezzano, they have meat ball's on their menu everyday.
They may have been adapted from arroncini, as rice balls may have meat filling and or cheese, to sub plant a second starch with a pasta meal.
Italian's didn't invent pasta, or spaghetti, the Chinese did. Ravioli, kreplah, pierogi, etc., are all similar.
The Pennsylvania Dutch aren't Dutch either, they are German.
you were to visit my 5th. cousin's tratorria in Civitella Roveto Italy, near Avezzano, they have meat ball's on their menu everyday.
They may have been adapted from arroncini, as rice balls may have meat filling and or cheese, to sub plant a second starch with a pasta meal.
Italian's didn't invent pasta, or spaghetti, the Chinese did. Ravioli, kreplah, pierogi, etc., are all similar.
The Pennsylvania Dutch aren't Dutch either, they are German.
I have no doubt that your cousin has meatballs on the menu, but does he serve them in a tomato sauce on spaghetti?
earthling177
Well-known member
Look, this is pointless.
The other day the New York Times or Herald or whatever was interviewing "real Italian people" visiting NYC and their reactions to things.
ROFLMAO!!!
They behaved as if they were the only people who knew how to be True Italians[tm].
Among interesting things:
One of them was livid that people were eating a croissant (or some other pastry) right after lunch as if it was dessert with their coffee. Because, y'know, real Italians only eat that for breakfast. WTF? Sure, it may be a custom to eat it as breakfast, but it's not *forbidden* after that, is it? By whom?
Another woman was all up in arms that "things had too much garlic, and in Italy you only use onion *or* garlic, never the two together".
And scores of people complaining about the pasta with meatballs too.
Here's what I can tell you.
My entire family came *from* Italy. All places, North, South, Sicily etc.
The entire family cooks with garlic *and* onions in whatever way shape or form they want to.
They *all* have served pasta *with* meatballs in the same dish my entire life, and Italians all over South America and North America do that. I'm willing to bet that if you are serving several courses, the pasta might come in one course and the meat in another, while the poorer or people in a hurry probably just serve the dinner all at once, salad, pasta with meatballs, side dishes, and the only other course, if they'll have it, is dessert, which in my family was mostly during the weekends.
I would not doubt for a second that someone asked someone else to translate "sauce" from Italian into English, and the only "sauces" the English speaker knew of were "gravies" so they said "gravy" and it stuck. Or maybe something else happened.
It's something to talk about as curiosity and to know different regions, but it's not a big deal.
Just like you can't get a Latte or Marinara Sauce in Italy. Well, you *can*, but the latte will be just a cup of *milk*, no coffee, and Marinara is *not* tomato sauce like it's here, Marinara refers to the sea and they might give you some sauce made with shellfish or something, not just the "tomato sauce only, please" you get here.
Names like that just *sounded* fun or sold well in America and they stuck, it should not be surprising they happened in reverse like calling tomato-based sauce "gravy".
Before anyone complains that "that makes no sense", well, then, I will have to ask -- does it make *any* sense to you that Starbucks sells coffee or other drinks in "venti" size? "WTF are we talking about?"
"Venti" means 20 in Italian. As in 20 oz. ROFL!
Yeah, just ask for a 20 fluid ounce anything in Italy, let's see what happens?
If Starbucks knew anything about what they wanted to refer to, 20 fl. oz. is 591.47 ml, so they *should* be trying to sell a cup of about 600 ml if they cared; that would be "Seicento", not "venti".
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
The other day the New York Times or Herald or whatever was interviewing "real Italian people" visiting NYC and their reactions to things.
ROFLMAO!!!
They behaved as if they were the only people who knew how to be True Italians[tm].
Among interesting things:
One of them was livid that people were eating a croissant (or some other pastry) right after lunch as if it was dessert with their coffee. Because, y'know, real Italians only eat that for breakfast. WTF? Sure, it may be a custom to eat it as breakfast, but it's not *forbidden* after that, is it? By whom?
Another woman was all up in arms that "things had too much garlic, and in Italy you only use onion *or* garlic, never the two together".
And scores of people complaining about the pasta with meatballs too.
Here's what I can tell you.
My entire family came *from* Italy. All places, North, South, Sicily etc.
The entire family cooks with garlic *and* onions in whatever way shape or form they want to.
They *all* have served pasta *with* meatballs in the same dish my entire life, and Italians all over South America and North America do that. I'm willing to bet that if you are serving several courses, the pasta might come in one course and the meat in another, while the poorer or people in a hurry probably just serve the dinner all at once, salad, pasta with meatballs, side dishes, and the only other course, if they'll have it, is dessert, which in my family was mostly during the weekends.
I would not doubt for a second that someone asked someone else to translate "sauce" from Italian into English, and the only "sauces" the English speaker knew of were "gravies" so they said "gravy" and it stuck. Or maybe something else happened.
It's something to talk about as curiosity and to know different regions, but it's not a big deal.
Just like you can't get a Latte or Marinara Sauce in Italy. Well, you *can*, but the latte will be just a cup of *milk*, no coffee, and Marinara is *not* tomato sauce like it's here, Marinara refers to the sea and they might give you some sauce made with shellfish or something, not just the "tomato sauce only, please" you get here.
Names like that just *sounded* fun or sold well in America and they stuck, it should not be surprising they happened in reverse like calling tomato-based sauce "gravy".
Before anyone complains that "that makes no sense", well, then, I will have to ask -- does it make *any* sense to you that Starbucks sells coffee or other drinks in "venti" size? "WTF are we talking about?"
"Venti" means 20 in Italian. As in 20 oz. ROFL!
Yeah, just ask for a 20 fluid ounce anything in Italy, let's see what happens?
If Starbucks knew anything about what they wanted to refer to, 20 fl. oz. is 591.47 ml, so they *should* be trying to sell a cup of about 600 ml if they cared; that would be "Seicento", not "venti".
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
More about spaghetti and meatballs:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/is-spaghetti-and-meatballs-italian-94819690/
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/is-spaghetti-and-meatballs-italian-94819690/
earthling177
Well-known member
The explanation about people finding more meat for a cheaper cost makes perfect sense to me. The part I'm having a little difficulty with is that spaghetti with meatballs is popular all over North and South America. I'd be satisfied with "well, Walt Disney's Lady and the Tramp made it popular" except that my family ate it in South America since the 30's way before the movie.
So, I'm beginning to think it was firmly rooted in several places in Italian culture before they moved to the Americas.
Why do I think this? Because other dishes which originated in North America did not make it to South America, for example, Italian Wedding Soup.
Other dishes are even more confusing: Fettuccine Alfredo, for example -- researchers claim the dish *did* start in Italy, although the sauce was way more butter based than white sauce based, crossed the Atlantic to both North and South America, then apparently the restaurant in Rome which originated the dish closed and the dish disappeared from Italian repertoire around mid-60's. Italians currently claim Fettuccine Alfredo is an American dish, not Italian.
That's OK by me, I won't complain and I will try not to poke fun. Because really, instead of celebrating that their families went all over the world and came up with other dishes that share most of the ideas of Italian Cuisine, they're poo-pooing that it wasn't invented there. Oh, well. We'll just have to eat the many different varieties of Pizza that one can find in South and North America but not in Italy. Pity.
Although to be honest, everyone has their limits. Some people here insist Hawaiian pizza is great, while others will say that there's no place for pineapple in pizza.
;-)
So, I'm beginning to think it was firmly rooted in several places in Italian culture before they moved to the Americas.
Why do I think this? Because other dishes which originated in North America did not make it to South America, for example, Italian Wedding Soup.
Other dishes are even more confusing: Fettuccine Alfredo, for example -- researchers claim the dish *did* start in Italy, although the sauce was way more butter based than white sauce based, crossed the Atlantic to both North and South America, then apparently the restaurant in Rome which originated the dish closed and the dish disappeared from Italian repertoire around mid-60's. Italians currently claim Fettuccine Alfredo is an American dish, not Italian.
That's OK by me, I won't complain and I will try not to poke fun. Because really, instead of celebrating that their families went all over the world and came up with other dishes that share most of the ideas of Italian Cuisine, they're poo-pooing that it wasn't invented there. Oh, well. We'll just have to eat the many different varieties of Pizza that one can find in South and North America but not in Italy. Pity.
Although to be honest, everyone has their limits. Some people here insist Hawaiian pizza is great, while others will say that there's no place for pineapple in pizza.
;-)
My Uncle Joe (husband of my mom's sister Doris) was well known for his tomato sauce and meatballs. His parents had come from Italy to Mississippi in the early 20th century, so he got the recipe from them. Many times when visiting there he would make spaghetti, and this meatball sauce was served with it.
One time my Aunt Doris took the meatballs to a party that was attended by the wife of the governor of Mississippi, and she thought they were the best she'd ever eaten. My aunt knew her well, so she asked if he would be interested in making some for an event being held at the Governor's Mansion. He agreed to do so, and they were the hit of the party.
One time my Aunt Doris took the meatballs to a party that was attended by the wife of the governor of Mississippi, and she thought they were the best she'd ever eaten. My aunt knew her well, so she asked if he would be interested in making some for an event being held at the Governor's Mansion. He agreed to do so, and they were the hit of the party.
Paulo,
I'm always willing to learn. What region is your Italian family from? And do you know the Italian name for spaghetti and meatballs? I don't mean the literal translation ofcourse.
In no Italian cookbook, including the Culinaria Italia, I have there is a recipe for it and my Italian friend Irene doesn't know about it either. And then Anna del Conte, who covered the history of Italian food mentions that there is only one pasta dish in which meat is accompanied by pasta: Carne alla Genovese, braised beef served with penne. So I did my research, but I may have missed something.
Fettuccine Alfredo originates indeed from Italy but it was not made with cream. Half Italy would be running for the bathroom after eating a sauce with cream, so cream sauces are not very popular in Italy. A Carbonara is also often made with cream, but originally cream wasn't used in it.
I'm always willing to learn. What region is your Italian family from? And do you know the Italian name for spaghetti and meatballs? I don't mean the literal translation ofcourse.
In no Italian cookbook, including the Culinaria Italia, I have there is a recipe for it and my Italian friend Irene doesn't know about it either. And then Anna del Conte, who covered the history of Italian food mentions that there is only one pasta dish in which meat is accompanied by pasta: Carne alla Genovese, braised beef served with penne. So I did my research, but I may have missed something.
Fettuccine Alfredo originates indeed from Italy but it was not made with cream. Half Italy would be running for the bathroom after eating a sauce with cream, so cream sauces are not very popular in Italy. A Carbonara is also often made with cream, but originally cream wasn't used in it.
I've heard the story that Fettuccine Alfedo was originated in Italy expressly for Douglas Fairbanks Sr. and Mary Pickford when they were on their honeymoon in the early 1920's. The story goes that they were staying in a hotel somewhere in Italy and when Mary became hungry during the night they requested for the hotel chef to make them a little something, and this is the dish he came up with. His name was Alfredo hence, Fettuccini Alfedo came into the lexicon. But he prepared the dish with freshly grated parmesan and the rich Italian butter that was available to him, no cream. As I heard the story the butter was supposed to have been different than what we are used to, and had some cream in it making it like a cross between butter and fresh cream.
My Mom was raised near an Italian family in Oakland after her family moved here in 1935. Mrs. Bertoli taught my Mom Italian cooking and she was a great cook. One for the dishes that was Mom's specialty was Fettucinni Neapolitan. It starts out as Alfredo, but is then topped with a delcious tomato based sauce made with crushed tomatoes, mild Italian sausage, mushrooms, green onions, garlic, basil and beer, not wine, because thats what Mrs. Bertoli used. It was a spectacular dish! Most all of my parents friends were pure Italian and they all loved Mom's Fettuccini. Many of them had been to Italy and they all said that Moms' was the best they ever tasted. I'm the only one in the family that still knows how to make it, because I watched her and listened, it was never written down.
And as far as the gravy vs sauce, I believe that sauce is the West Coast vernacular for Italian tomato based pasta sauces, gravy is East Coast terminology. Either way, whatever you call it Italian food is the best!
Eddie
My Mom was raised near an Italian family in Oakland after her family moved here in 1935. Mrs. Bertoli taught my Mom Italian cooking and she was a great cook. One for the dishes that was Mom's specialty was Fettucinni Neapolitan. It starts out as Alfredo, but is then topped with a delcious tomato based sauce made with crushed tomatoes, mild Italian sausage, mushrooms, green onions, garlic, basil and beer, not wine, because thats what Mrs. Bertoli used. It was a spectacular dish! Most all of my parents friends were pure Italian and they all loved Mom's Fettuccini. Many of them had been to Italy and they all said that Moms' was the best they ever tasted. I'm the only one in the family that still knows how to make it, because I watched her and listened, it was never written down.
And as far as the gravy vs sauce, I believe that sauce is the West Coast vernacular for Italian tomato based pasta sauces, gravy is East Coast terminology. Either way, whatever you call it Italian food is the best!
Eddie
gus
Well-known member
Beginning by the end, I´m from Italian origin, but I might be mistaken. Pasta it´s all the food made from flour like gnocchi, ravioli , fetuccini, penne rhigati, etc. Noodles I assume it´s not Italian but Anglo American. Sauce is tomatoe sauce, and gravy it´s like a sort of marinade, some sort of juice you put over food cooked in oven or for salads. Those are my two cents. If I´m wrong correct me. Gus.
vacerator
Well-known member
Yes, the cousins in Italy
eat and serve meatballs with pasta.
To change things up, they also slow simmer an entire beef chuck in the sugo while it is cooking all day.
eat and serve meatballs with pasta.
To change things up, they also slow simmer an entire beef chuck in the sugo while it is cooking all day.
earthling177
Well-known member
Louis:
My family came from all over Italy, according to folks who were trying to follow the family roots, I'd have to ask them next time I visit.
I know for sure that my dad's grandfather was from Sicily, I can't remember where his wife was from or where my mom's mother family was from, but I've heard something about Rome and Bologna, just can't be sure. My mom's father came straight from Piedmont, where he was born and raised, but his family came from Austria. When they say they need to go visit family, they mean they'll roam thru the country for a week or two.
The other questions get more difficult to answer not for lack of information, but because well, we were an Italian family. Since I was 3rd or 4th generation, depending on which side of the family you counted, we did not learn Italian besides the very basics and people did not routinely speak Italian except for the accent. If it was a "special" weekend, well, it was obvious we'd be eating lasagna, or ravioli or gnocchi for example, which are also dishes with meat; if we were talking a busy weekend with lots to do, there'd be fettuccine a la Bolognese, which also has meat in it; but there were plenty of weekends which were not one extreme or another, and then, by Wednesday or Thursday, we would be told there'd be pasta with meatballs, or "macarrão com almôndegas" in Portuguese. That'd would start a discussion until Saturday or Sunday, with some people campaigning for one kind of pasta or another: sometimes ziti or penne, sometimes spaghetti or fettuccini etc. It was a thing of beauty and sheer chaos all rolled up in one, because it was a family affair and everything would be discussed. Someone would be making the tomato sauce while someone was rolling the meatballs (always *way* more meat with only enough breadcrumbs to get the right consistency), other people would be making the pasta. People would be shouting orders and/or opinions about what seasonings, how to cook the pasta etc the entire time. You felt everything from joy to exhaustion, but your family was all together making food to which we would sit and eat and there was nothing more important than the family meals at that point.
*After* the meal was over, it was clear that we had "spaghetti with meatballs" or ziti with meatballs and so on and so forth.
There were also the days when we had pasta with tomato sauce and sausages (cooked in the sauce). Those were more rare, I think the women thought they were more fattening or something.
The funny part were the weekends when the food would be something from a different cuisine. It felt so strange and orderly, there was nothing to discuss or talk about -- we were following a recipe from a printed piece of paper and that was the end of it. No "but *my* grandma made it this way" or "didn't use that spice" or anything else. It was quiet, efficient and peaceful. But somehow it did not feel like *our* family, LOL.
The other funny thing in my family was that we'd be eating one meal, say, lunch, and be already talking about what the menu for the next day or two were going to be. It's funny to me the number of times I've been having a meal with friend's families and they start talking about the menu for next day and I ask "let me guess, y'all Italians?" and they go "how did you know?"
;-)
My family came from all over Italy, according to folks who were trying to follow the family roots, I'd have to ask them next time I visit.
I know for sure that my dad's grandfather was from Sicily, I can't remember where his wife was from or where my mom's mother family was from, but I've heard something about Rome and Bologna, just can't be sure. My mom's father came straight from Piedmont, where he was born and raised, but his family came from Austria. When they say they need to go visit family, they mean they'll roam thru the country for a week or two.
The other questions get more difficult to answer not for lack of information, but because well, we were an Italian family. Since I was 3rd or 4th generation, depending on which side of the family you counted, we did not learn Italian besides the very basics and people did not routinely speak Italian except for the accent. If it was a "special" weekend, well, it was obvious we'd be eating lasagna, or ravioli or gnocchi for example, which are also dishes with meat; if we were talking a busy weekend with lots to do, there'd be fettuccine a la Bolognese, which also has meat in it; but there were plenty of weekends which were not one extreme or another, and then, by Wednesday or Thursday, we would be told there'd be pasta with meatballs, or "macarrão com almôndegas" in Portuguese. That'd would start a discussion until Saturday or Sunday, with some people campaigning for one kind of pasta or another: sometimes ziti or penne, sometimes spaghetti or fettuccini etc. It was a thing of beauty and sheer chaos all rolled up in one, because it was a family affair and everything would be discussed. Someone would be making the tomato sauce while someone was rolling the meatballs (always *way* more meat with only enough breadcrumbs to get the right consistency), other people would be making the pasta. People would be shouting orders and/or opinions about what seasonings, how to cook the pasta etc the entire time. You felt everything from joy to exhaustion, but your family was all together making food to which we would sit and eat and there was nothing more important than the family meals at that point.
*After* the meal was over, it was clear that we had "spaghetti with meatballs" or ziti with meatballs and so on and so forth.
There were also the days when we had pasta with tomato sauce and sausages (cooked in the sauce). Those were more rare, I think the women thought they were more fattening or something.
The funny part were the weekends when the food would be something from a different cuisine. It felt so strange and orderly, there was nothing to discuss or talk about -- we were following a recipe from a printed piece of paper and that was the end of it. No "but *my* grandma made it this way" or "didn't use that spice" or anything else. It was quiet, efficient and peaceful. But somehow it did not feel like *our* family, LOL.
The other funny thing in my family was that we'd be eating one meal, say, lunch, and be already talking about what the menu for the next day or two were going to be. It's funny to me the number of times I've been having a meal with friend's families and they start talking about the menu for next day and I ask "let me guess, y'all Italians?" and they go "how did you know?"
;-)
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Well until I was eleven we lived in perhaps the most Italian town in the USA: East Haven, Connecticut. Highest percent of population and all that. I'd guess our neighborhood was over 50% Italian. But I never heard anyone refer to tomato based sauce as "gravy". For some reason it seems like a lazy way to refer to a cuisine that has so many fascinating names in Italian.
The spaghetti and meatball thing is an interesting mystery. Perhaps we'll never solve it. Wikipedia has a list of pasta dishes, there it's stated too that it's originally from the USA. I've seen mentioned several times that it was first served in the 1920's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pasta_dishes
I mentioned Anna del Conte, what she meant was the combination of pieces of meat and pasta. In a bolognese the meat is part of the sauce, but that is not what she meant. On Wikipedia a few other dishes are mentioned, Anna del Conte must have missed those.
The fact that Mike's cousin serves spaghetti and meatballs isn't enough proof I think. This is after WWII, it can be an American influence from the liberation. Paulo's family is more interesting. Especially the combination of meatballs and other pasta, not spaghetti. That could have been originally a pasta dish with the smaller meatballs. What puzzles me too is that in the eyes of Italians spaghetti is not the right type of pasta to go with meatballs because the type of pasta has to fit the sauce. Big chunks, big type of pasta etc.
I have noticed that spaghetti and meatballs sometimes is called spaghetti and Sicilian meatballs. If, what I mentioned before, spaghetti served with tomatosauce/pastasauce and in the next course the meatballs with vegetables (perhaps part of the Cucina povera?), is a Sicilian custom, it would agree with the story that Americans were missing meat in a spaghetti and tomato sauce dish and because of that the Italians put the meatballs on top of it.
So far my anthropological food research for today. lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pasta_dishes
I mentioned Anna del Conte, what she meant was the combination of pieces of meat and pasta. In a bolognese the meat is part of the sauce, but that is not what she meant. On Wikipedia a few other dishes are mentioned, Anna del Conte must have missed those.
The fact that Mike's cousin serves spaghetti and meatballs isn't enough proof I think. This is after WWII, it can be an American influence from the liberation. Paulo's family is more interesting. Especially the combination of meatballs and other pasta, not spaghetti. That could have been originally a pasta dish with the smaller meatballs. What puzzles me too is that in the eyes of Italians spaghetti is not the right type of pasta to go with meatballs because the type of pasta has to fit the sauce. Big chunks, big type of pasta etc.
I have noticed that spaghetti and meatballs sometimes is called spaghetti and Sicilian meatballs. If, what I mentioned before, spaghetti served with tomatosauce/pastasauce and in the next course the meatballs with vegetables (perhaps part of the Cucina povera?), is a Sicilian custom, it would agree with the story that Americans were missing meat in a spaghetti and tomato sauce dish and because of that the Italians put the meatballs on top of it.
So far my anthropological food research for today. lol
vacerator
Well-known member
What would life be
without mysteries?
Example; Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and everyone.
without mysteries?
Example; Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and everyone.
mralex
Well-known member
Anything with just tomato I’d call condiment lol
"Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and everyone."
A source is mentioned, so you can check that. Or did you mean to say this particular information is incorrect?
Here's an interesting article about pasta. Spaghetti and meatballs is mentioned here too, but there is much more information about pasta etc.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1986/07/pasta/306226/
A source is mentioned, so you can check that. Or did you mean to say this particular information is incorrect?
Here's an interesting article about pasta. Spaghetti and meatballs is mentioned here too, but there is much more information about pasta etc.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1986/07/pasta/306226/
brucelucenta
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2013
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I think the question is: what do you call someone who asks such a question as this one?
brucelucenta
Well-known member
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I think the question is: what do you call someone who asks such a question as this one? I can think of several things....[this post was last edited: 10/4/2017-19:58]
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Gravy derives from an older term for meat fat... by definition gravy is such thickened with flour... you can google gravy and pages and pages of flour thickened fat and broth come up, nothing about tomatoes.
I figure the use of the term gravy for what most call spaghetti sauce was an attempt, unconscious perhaps, of early Italian Americans to better assimilate into the general lexicon that anything poured over a carb dish is gravy. To make something uniquely Italian more Americanized.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I figure the use of the term gravy for what most call spaghetti sauce was an attempt, unconscious perhaps, of early Italian Americans to better assimilate into the general lexicon that anything poured over a carb dish is gravy. To make something uniquely Italian more Americanized.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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