OK... What do you call Tomato Sauce... "Sauce" or "Gravy" ???

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Louis:

My family came from all over Italy, according to folks who were trying to follow the family roots, I'd have to ask them next time I visit.

I know for sure that my dad's grandfather was from Sicily, I can't remember where his wife was from or where my mom's mother family was from, but I've heard something about Rome and Bologna, just can't be sure. My mom's father came straight from Piedmont, where he was born and raised, but his family came from Austria. When they say they need to go visit family, they mean they'll roam thru the country for a week or two.

The other questions get more difficult to answer not for lack of information, but because well, we were an Italian family. Since I was 3rd or 4th generation, depending on which side of the family you counted, we did not learn Italian besides the very basics and people did not routinely speak Italian except for the accent. If it was a "special" weekend, well, it was obvious we'd be eating lasagna, or ravioli or gnocchi for example, which are also dishes with meat; if we were talking a busy weekend with lots to do, there'd be fettuccine a la Bolognese, which also has meat in it; but there were plenty of weekends which were not one extreme or another, and then, by Wednesday or Thursday, we would be told there'd be pasta with meatballs, or "macarrão com almôndegas" in Portuguese. That'd would start a discussion until Saturday or Sunday, with some people campaigning for one kind of pasta or another: sometimes ziti or penne, sometimes spaghetti or fettuccini etc. It was a thing of beauty and sheer chaos all rolled up in one, because it was a family affair and everything would be discussed. Someone would be making the tomato sauce while someone was rolling the meatballs (always *way* more meat with only enough breadcrumbs to get the right consistency), other people would be making the pasta. People would be shouting orders and/or opinions about what seasonings, how to cook the pasta etc the entire time. You felt everything from joy to exhaustion, but your family was all together making food to which we would sit and eat and there was nothing more important than the family meals at that point.

*After* the meal was over, it was clear that we had "spaghetti with meatballs" or ziti with meatballs and so on and so forth.

There were also the days when we had pasta with tomato sauce and sausages (cooked in the sauce). Those were more rare, I think the women thought they were more fattening or something.

The funny part were the weekends when the food would be something from a different cuisine. It felt so strange and orderly, there was nothing to discuss or talk about -- we were following a recipe from a printed piece of paper and that was the end of it. No "but *my* grandma made it this way" or "didn't use that spice" or anything else. It was quiet, efficient and peaceful. But somehow it did not feel like *our* family, LOL.

The other funny thing in my family was that we'd be eating one meal, say, lunch, and be already talking about what the menu for the next day or two were going to be. It's funny to me the number of times I've been having a meal with friend's families and they start talking about the menu for next day and I ask "let me guess, y'all Italians?" and they go "how did you know?"

;-)
 
Well until I was eleven we lived in perhaps the most Italian town in the USA: East Haven, Connecticut. Highest percent of population and all that. I'd guess our neighborhood was over 50% Italian. But I never heard anyone refer to tomato based sauce as "gravy". For some reason it seems like a lazy way to refer to a cuisine that has so many fascinating names in Italian.
 
The spaghetti and meatball thing is an interesting mystery. Perhaps we'll never solve it. Wikipedia has a list of pasta dishes, there it's stated too that it's originally from the USA. I've seen mentioned several times that it was first served in the 1920's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pasta_dishes

I mentioned Anna del Conte, what she meant was the combination of pieces of meat and pasta. In a bolognese the meat is part of the sauce, but that is not what she meant. On Wikipedia a few other dishes are mentioned, Anna del Conte must have missed those.

The fact that Mike's cousin serves spaghetti and meatballs isn't enough proof I think. This is after WWII, it can be an American influence from the liberation. Paulo's family is more interesting. Especially the combination of meatballs and other pasta, not spaghetti. That could have been originally a pasta dish with the smaller meatballs. What puzzles me too is that in the eyes of Italians spaghetti is not the right type of pasta to go with meatballs because the type of pasta has to fit the sauce. Big chunks, big type of pasta etc.

I have noticed that spaghetti and meatballs sometimes is called spaghetti and Sicilian meatballs. If, what I mentioned before, spaghetti served with tomatosauce/pastasauce and in the next course the meatballs with vegetables (perhaps part of the Cucina povera?), is a Sicilian custom, it would agree with the story that Americans were missing meat in a spaghetti and tomato sauce dish and because of that the Italians put the meatballs on top of it.

So far my anthropological food research for today. lol
 
"Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and everyone."

A source is mentioned, so you can check that. Or did you mean to say this particular information is incorrect?

Here's an interesting article about pasta. Spaghetti and meatballs is mentioned here too, but there is much more information about pasta etc.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1986/07/pasta/306226/
 
There is nothing lazy about calling sauce "Gravy". It's more a colloquialism than anything. We know by definition it is not sauce. It's a feel good term that conveys comfort. Sorry if that doesn't fit the prim and proper definition.
 
I think the question is: what do you call someone who asks such a question as this one? I can think of several things....[this post was last edited: 10/4/2017-19:58]
 
Gravy derives from an older term for meat fat... by definition gravy is such thickened with flour... you can google gravy and pages and pages of flour thickened fat and broth come up, nothing about tomatoes.

I figure the use of the term gravy for what most call spaghetti sauce was an attempt, unconscious perhaps, of early Italian Americans to better assimilate into the general lexicon that anything poured over a carb dish is gravy. To make something uniquely Italian more Americanized.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
However it came to be known as gravy i am grateful all the same. It is delicious no matter what you call it.
 
"just tomato"

would be ketchup? Some say catsup on the bottle. Tomato, tomoto.
Then there is puree, and paste.
Why criticize a question?
Enough of us found it questionable enough to reply after 970 days. It was rather fun.
 
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Vacerator - Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so.. Sorry not sorry.
 
"sorry" Alex;

I wasn't intending to be critical of you. I like the Heinz "57" varieties too.
I think those great stores you have there carry several of them as well.
ASDA, Morrison's, Tesco, Waitrose, etc.

I can be a foodie snob I admit. I'm retired from the supermarket industry after 35 years.
 
On spaghetti and meatballs: My mom, who hailed from Veroli, Italy, came to the US in 1946. She maintained that meatballs served with spaghetti was an American, not Italian creation---although she eventually served it often, as that's what Americans considered an Italian dish. She tended to serve the meatballs as a separate course. You'd have pasta with sauce served prior to the meatballs.

She also maintained that using a spoon to help spin spaghetti around a fork was for small children and the uncouth. That has been contested by others here, but it must have been the custom in the area she was from. I was weaned off the "guiding spoon" by about first grade. I have no problem with a spoon being used, but it drove her to distraction.

She was also a great believer in serving lasagna at every Sunday or holiday meal. Roast beef, mashed potatoes and gravy, lasagna. At Thanksgiving, turkey with all the trimmings...and lasagna. My sister used to joke that mom considered it a side dish.

Aside: My mother's real first name was Rosa Maria. My dad and customs officials convinced her to change it to the more American-sounding 'Rosina' when they arrived on these shores. Mom had her revenge when she named my sister. First name: Maria Teresa. Middle Name: Vanda Valentina. My sister had it legally changed to Maria T. (just the initial for a middle name) in her mid-20's.
 
Eugene,

I love your story about you Mom serving Lasagna every Sunday and Holiday. Here in Northern California almost all the Italians families I know have this same tradition, but instead of Lasagna its Ravioli. No special Italian family dinner is considered complete unless there are Ravioli, or "Rav's" on the table. And if not Rav's, then it would be Gnooci, which is one of my most favorite things in the world, especially with good, fresh homemade Pesto.

And my family also felt the same way about using a spoon to help wrap the spaghetti around the fork, its just not supposed to be done.

I love the Italian culture and their food. I'm married to an Italian too.
Eddie
 

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