Stan, if you get the antique store Wesix, maybe you can just switch out the entire ceramic block and coil assemblies between the two heaters. If it's possible, that would be quicker and easier than harvesting only the coil and having to re-string it on your existing heater's block.
Old Wesix portable heater
- Thread starter stan
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Yep
It looked like it would be a easy swap.
It looked like it would be a easy swap.
Funny thing is
I hardly ever go into antique stores.
A wrecking yard or a junk store is more interesting to me, but I was walking passed this place, walked in, and there it sat!
I hardly ever go into antique stores.
A wrecking yard or a junk store is more interesting to me, but I was walking passed this place, walked in, and there it sat!
kb0nes
Well-known member
Kill A Watt
Stan,
Indeed I think a Kill A Watt meter is something that EVERY AW member MUST have. People that are curious about electrical appliances (AW members!) should have tools to extend their knowledge and aid repair troubleshooting.
A watt meter and a basic Digital Multi Meter (DMM) are all but mandatory.
A Kill A Watt meter is also an interesting gadget to see how much power a given device uses over time. They will gather and store data over hours/days/weeks and report how many Kwh are used. Plug your fridge into one and let it go for a week and you can extrapolate cost per year etc. I have 3 Kill A Watts so I can be testing several things at once!
Stan,
Indeed I think a Kill A Watt meter is something that EVERY AW member MUST have. People that are curious about electrical appliances (AW members!) should have tools to extend their knowledge and aid repair troubleshooting.
A watt meter and a basic Digital Multi Meter (DMM) are all but mandatory.
A Kill A Watt meter is also an interesting gadget to see how much power a given device uses over time. They will gather and store data over hours/days/weeks and report how many Kwh are used. Plug your fridge into one and let it go for a week and you can extrapolate cost per year etc. I have 3 Kill A Watts so I can be testing several things at once!
I'm gona
get one!
I'd like to see what my fridge uses.
If PE&E where to come do a walk throgh this old place, they'd have a heart attack when they saw the my fridge.
get one!
I'd like to see what my fridge uses.
If PE&E where to come do a walk throgh this old place, they'd have a heart attack when they saw the my fridge.
I've enjoyed using my Kill-A-Watt. I was wondering if I really needed a full size freezer, but the meter says its only costing $2 a month to run, so why not?
Messed with it
some more by shortening the coil by 4 inches, and got the coil to turn a lighter yellow orange. Seems to be putting out more heat. I'm living dangerously LOL
Going out tomorrow to hunt for a Kill A Watt meter.
some more by shortening the coil by 4 inches, and got the coil to turn a lighter yellow orange. Seems to be putting out more heat. I'm living dangerously LOL
Going out tomorrow to hunt for a Kill A Watt meter.
gusherb
Well-known member
I have to admit
Those kinds of heaters give me the heebie jeebies. Seeing a glowing element makes me feel like my house is going to burn down or something. Kinda like how some people are deathly afraid of natural gas appliances and heating...I feel the same about certain types of resistance heating.
That heater is pretty neat though... From afar. I remember visiting someone in Forestville, CA that had not a single modern amenity in their home. Not even Internet or central heat. They cooked and heated with a wood stove in the kitchen, and fireplaces in other parts of the house. She had a 1930s hot plate in her bedroom for making tea that freaked me out when I saw it, and saw that it was being used. The house was real cool though, they had a library with all wood paneling that they got from an estate in England (long story how it ended up here), and in it they had a wooden phone booth with a connected and working rotary phone. There was other stuff too but it's been so long I can barely remember.
Those kinds of heaters give me the heebie jeebies. Seeing a glowing element makes me feel like my house is going to burn down or something. Kinda like how some people are deathly afraid of natural gas appliances and heating...I feel the same about certain types of resistance heating.
That heater is pretty neat though... From afar. I remember visiting someone in Forestville, CA that had not a single modern amenity in their home. Not even Internet or central heat. They cooked and heated with a wood stove in the kitchen, and fireplaces in other parts of the house. She had a 1930s hot plate in her bedroom for making tea that freaked me out when I saw it, and saw that it was being used. The house was real cool though, they had a library with all wood paneling that they got from an estate in England (long story how it ended up here), and in it they had a wooden phone booth with a connected and working rotary phone. There was other stuff too but it's been so long I can barely remember.
The really crazy thing to consider is that when heaters like Stan's were new, a lot of people were plugging them into light sockets that hung from the ceiling.
I remember in the '70s at Disneyland, the General Electric Carousel of Progress (originally a 1964 World's Fair exhibit) included a presentation showing a family scene in a 1920s living room with multiple cords -- including ones for a dish heater and a monitor top -- strung to a various ceiling light sockets. Now that's scary.
I remember in the '70s at Disneyland, the General Electric Carousel of Progress (originally a 1964 World's Fair exhibit) included a presentation showing a family scene in a 1920s living room with multiple cords -- including ones for a dish heater and a monitor top -- strung to a various ceiling light sockets. Now that's scary.
Forestville (bohemian culture there)
As well as Sebastopol have a lot of old houses like that, some of these old places sat in the middle of apple orchards.
No heat, no natural gas ect.
As well as Sebastopol have a lot of old houses like that, some of these old places sat in the middle of apple orchards.
No heat, no natural gas ect.
Ralph
I've got three of those kind of light sockets here.. But I don't use them very often. And don't leave anything plugged in them.
I've got three of those kind of light sockets here.. But I don't use them very often. And don't leave anything plugged in them.
gusherb
Well-known member
Couple those...
Light socket outlets with oversized Edison fuses and you have yourself a recipe for a house sized BBQ!
That was probably the driving force for those tamper proof fuses that I saw in 60s fuseboxes...
Actually that thought takes me back to the apartment building my dad owns... While working on the electrical a few times and studying the anatomy of the 3rd floor which has all of it's original 1915 wiring still in place (or perhaps it was replaced later on but I doubt it), it only had two circuits and they staggered them so one circuit served every other room instead of all adjoining rooms in one section.
...Actually thinking about 100 year old wiring still being used freaks me out... I tried to get him to redo it but he's not the type to touch anything til it explodes in your face and then some... All the worn old devices have been replaced though. (where most fires start because of poor connections.)
Light socket outlets with oversized Edison fuses and you have yourself a recipe for a house sized BBQ!
That was probably the driving force for those tamper proof fuses that I saw in 60s fuseboxes...
Actually that thought takes me back to the apartment building my dad owns... While working on the electrical a few times and studying the anatomy of the 3rd floor which has all of it's original 1915 wiring still in place (or perhaps it was replaced later on but I doubt it), it only had two circuits and they staggered them so one circuit served every other room instead of all adjoining rooms in one section.
...Actually thinking about 100 year old wiring still being used freaks me out... I tried to get him to redo it but he's not the type to touch anything til it explodes in your face and then some... All the worn old devices have been replaced though. (where most fires start because of poor connections.)
In 1978 I lived in a duplex on 3rd St. in Santa Rosa, CA that was bulit in the early 1920's. It had a fuse box outside up under the eaves with two 20 or 30 amp. fuses. I had my Maytag A50 then and I couldn't wash after dark because as soon as I would start the spinner the fuse would blow and I'd be outside on a chair (3 legged danish modern) trying to change the fuse. Needless to say laundry was done during the daytime.
This
Place has all the knob and tube wiring and a fuse box in the basement.
It's strange that when you take out a fuse.. It might shut off power to different places all over the house. No rhyme or reason.
I've changed most of the receptacles and most of the switches.. I think the old ones were called "knife blade" And a few times worked with the wires while hot.
I had to ask myself.. Do I want to take a risk of getting shocked, or go in the basement, remove the fuse, and maybe get bit by a black widow spider LOL
I think its takes the right person to live and care for these old places, it's not for everyone.
Place has all the knob and tube wiring and a fuse box in the basement.
It's strange that when you take out a fuse.. It might shut off power to different places all over the house. No rhyme or reason.
I've changed most of the receptacles and most of the switches.. I think the old ones were called "knife blade" And a few times worked with the wires while hot.
I had to ask myself.. Do I want to take a risk of getting shocked, or go in the basement, remove the fuse, and maybe get bit by a black widow spider LOL
I think its takes the right person to live and care for these old places, it's not for everyone.
Stan I've done that a few times too with hot wires...as long as your body doesn't make the connection to ground! I used to work for Goldstar (LG now) in Alabama in their television plant. Those TV's were on while going down the line so we could test them...and the backs were off. The anode packed 10,000 volts....needless to say if you crossed that, your hair would curl. Actually saw a guy get shocked there, it threw him backwards and he went cross-eyed for a minute, but he was ok. I happened to be a ground connection once there too, all I remember is that I was standing at the line with the test cable in my hand ready to attach to a TV...my other hand touched something else completing a circuit to ground, and now that I'm an RN I know the electricity crossed my heart for a second causing fibrillation which caused me to black out. Since I was standing, I fell backwards breaking the circuit I had created and my own rhythm started back, but that doesn't always happen! Didn't mean to go out on a tangent, you just made me remember that event.
10,000 volts
Oh hell no! I don't mind working the house wires live (110v) but I'm scared of the clothes dryer,T.V, ect
A friend asked me if I could fix her microwave.. I can barely work one, let alone work on one! Even unplugged those things have some sort of high powers capacitor or something in them! No way!
Glad your not doing that job anymore!
Oh hell no! I don't mind working the house wires live (110v) but I'm scared of the clothes dryer,T.V, ect
A friend asked me if I could fix her microwave.. I can barely work one, let alone work on one! Even unplugged those things have some sort of high powers capacitor or something in them! No way!
Glad your not doing that job anymore!
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Stan,
You don't need a grounded outlet for GFCI to work.
GFCI works by comparing the current in the supply wire to that in the neutral wire. If they vary at all, then the breaker inside the outlet is tripped. Code says you shouldn't install a grounded outlet on a non-grounded circuit, but I said fuck it, and have installed them anyway, especially in an old bath with no ground. And yes, I've tested the CGCI (carefully) and the breaker will trip off as soon as the supply wire is grounded to the plumbing.
I suppose I could add a ground wire to the outlet to the plumbing, if I thought it mattered. And I'd probably have to upgrade the non-grounded circuits to grounded if the home were to be sold. But I'm comfortable with the current (no pun intended) setup.
One reason why I went this path is that it's almost impossible to find new non-grounded outlets. The original two wire outlets here were worn out and couldn't hold a plug securely. So they almost all got updated to three wire without ground. This accounts for less than half the outlets in the home that are knob and tube. The rest were already upgraded to grounded outlets long ago.
As I understand it, the main benefit of a ground wire is that it protects the equipment, not the humans. The GFCI outlet protects the humans even without a ground wire.
You don't need a grounded outlet for GFCI to work.
GFCI works by comparing the current in the supply wire to that in the neutral wire. If they vary at all, then the breaker inside the outlet is tripped. Code says you shouldn't install a grounded outlet on a non-grounded circuit, but I said fuck it, and have installed them anyway, especially in an old bath with no ground. And yes, I've tested the CGCI (carefully) and the breaker will trip off as soon as the supply wire is grounded to the plumbing.
I suppose I could add a ground wire to the outlet to the plumbing, if I thought it mattered. And I'd probably have to upgrade the non-grounded circuits to grounded if the home were to be sold. But I'm comfortable with the current (no pun intended) setup.
One reason why I went this path is that it's almost impossible to find new non-grounded outlets. The original two wire outlets here were worn out and couldn't hold a plug securely. So they almost all got updated to three wire without ground. This accounts for less than half the outlets in the home that are knob and tube. The rest were already upgraded to grounded outlets long ago.
As I understand it, the main benefit of a ground wire is that it protects the equipment, not the humans. The GFCI outlet protects the humans even without a ground wire.
delaneymeegan
Well-known member
Simplicity....
I like the looks of all this knob and tube wiring, and 2 prong outlets with a 30 amp fused breaker panel. Those were the days, not too long ago, before the ubiquitous 100, 150, or 200 Amp breaker panel with ample outlets in every room.
There's no way I'd live without protection from electric shock, but I have, when doing a remodel, reinstalled 1960s 2 prong outlets, with their Victorian-esque outlet cover, just for the look of it. Ah, these were down stream from a GFI outlet, of course.
One of the reasons I don't do any appliances with 220 is, it's easy enough to install a GFI outlet in line for ALL electrical appliances in your house. There is no reason not to spend the money and have the first receptacle in every circuit be a GFI. If one doesn't want to disturb their existing wiring, put a new GFI outlet right off the panel just for the protection.
You've got to do something, Stan. It's only a matter of time before your heater shorts with the coil breaking, the live wire springing out and making contact with the shell, while your sitting on the toilet and you bump the heater. You'll be instantly fried.
OR
A cartoon bad person comes into your home, while your showering, and throws the heater in the tub, and Sherlock Holmes himself will be necessary to solve the crime of 'The trials and tribulations of STAN'.
OR
a child, or a child-like adult(like myself), decides to play in or around the toilet and while touching that, also touches the outlet that is unusually located right next to both the toilet and the tub, creating yet another mess for you to clean up.
OR......
I like the looks of all this knob and tube wiring, and 2 prong outlets with a 30 amp fused breaker panel. Those were the days, not too long ago, before the ubiquitous 100, 150, or 200 Amp breaker panel with ample outlets in every room.
There's no way I'd live without protection from electric shock, but I have, when doing a remodel, reinstalled 1960s 2 prong outlets, with their Victorian-esque outlet cover, just for the look of it. Ah, these were down stream from a GFI outlet, of course.
One of the reasons I don't do any appliances with 220 is, it's easy enough to install a GFI outlet in line for ALL electrical appliances in your house. There is no reason not to spend the money and have the first receptacle in every circuit be a GFI. If one doesn't want to disturb their existing wiring, put a new GFI outlet right off the panel just for the protection.
You've got to do something, Stan. It's only a matter of time before your heater shorts with the coil breaking, the live wire springing out and making contact with the shell, while your sitting on the toilet and you bump the heater. You'll be instantly fried.
OR
A cartoon bad person comes into your home, while your showering, and throws the heater in the tub, and Sherlock Holmes himself will be necessary to solve the crime of 'The trials and tribulations of STAN'.
OR
a child, or a child-like adult(like myself), decides to play in or around the toilet and while touching that, also touches the outlet that is unusually located right next to both the toilet and the tub, creating yet another mess for you to clean up.
OR......
How about
This
This
delaneymeegan
Well-known member
A GFI with light switch. A standard GFI.
But back to the topic at hand (which I shamelessly rowed the boat off of), have you decided how your going to fix this charming heater?
The gangs all waiting. Inquiring minds need to know.
But back to the topic at hand (which I shamelessly rowed the boat off of), have you decided how your going to fix this charming heater?
The gangs all waiting. Inquiring minds need to know.
Not sure I fixed it
But it's functioning with a coil from another heater.
It's putting out heat, coil looks to be the right color while on. So far, plug, cord feels cool to the touch.
However without doing as Phil has suggested above.. Testing to see if Wattage is close to 1250, I don't know if it's functioning exactly to manufacture specs
But it's functioning with a coil from another heater.
It's putting out heat, coil looks to be the right color while on. So far, plug, cord feels cool to the touch.
However without doing as Phil has suggested above.. Testing to see if Wattage is close to 1250, I don't know if it's functioning exactly to manufacture specs
The
GFI outlet above is what I was thinking I'd try if the heater tests to be O.K
The plug I have it in now, has a switch that I use to turn the heat on and off with, instead of plugging and un plugging (old heater has no switch)
From what I've read there seems to be a argument as to whether or not a GFI will work with no ground?
Sudsmater say it will.
GFI outlet above is what I was thinking I'd try if the heater tests to be O.K
The plug I have it in now, has a switch that I use to turn the heat on and off with, instead of plugging and un plugging (old heater has no switch)
From what I've read there seems to be a argument as to whether or not a GFI will work with no ground?
Sudsmater say it will.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
GFCI's are designed to work without a ground. That's because the GFCI device measures the current flowing in the hot and neutral wires, and if the difference is more than five milliamps, it trips the breaker inside the outlet and all current is shut off.
In fact, it's safer for you than just a grounded outlet. That's because a leak from hot to ground may not be enough to trip the breaker at the distribution panel, but be enough to kill you.
However having both a properly grounded outlet and one protected by GFCI adds an extra layer of protection, but only for appliances that have grounded plugs. That's because if there is a short between hot and ground, the GFCI will immediately shut off the current protecting both the appliance and yourself. But the GFCI is really necessary to protect yourself.
Since your Wesix heater has a simple two prong plug, a grounded outlet wouldn't add any protection for it. But a GFCI device on that circuit certainly would.
If you can add a ground to the outlet, great. But a GFCI outlet would be even better. You could even run a wire from the outlet ground to the case of the heater, for even more protection. Up to you. But I should add that putting a grounded GFCI outlet on a non-grounded circuit is not up to code and would be frowned upon by an inspector. Which is a bit odd, since it could save lives regardless.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html
In fact, it's safer for you than just a grounded outlet. That's because a leak from hot to ground may not be enough to trip the breaker at the distribution panel, but be enough to kill you.
However having both a properly grounded outlet and one protected by GFCI adds an extra layer of protection, but only for appliances that have grounded plugs. That's because if there is a short between hot and ground, the GFCI will immediately shut off the current protecting both the appliance and yourself. But the GFCI is really necessary to protect yourself.
Since your Wesix heater has a simple two prong plug, a grounded outlet wouldn't add any protection for it. But a GFCI device on that circuit certainly would.
If you can add a ground to the outlet, great. But a GFCI outlet would be even better. You could even run a wire from the outlet ground to the case of the heater, for even more protection. Up to you. But I should add that putting a grounded GFCI outlet on a non-grounded circuit is not up to code and would be frowned upon by an inspector. Which is a bit odd, since it could save lives regardless.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/gfi.html
When we sold our previous house, the inspector didn't make any remarks about non-grounded outlets. It may have been buried in his report, but it was a non-issue and we didn't have to make any changes.
When we moved into our current place, which has a combination of original 1927 knob & tube, old romex with silver sheathing, and newer romex with vinyl sheathing, I thought sure the inspector would be horrified, but there wasn't so much as a peep out of him.
Stan, that switched GFI is a great idea if sacrificing the additional receptacle is no big deal for you.
When we moved into our current place, which has a combination of original 1927 knob & tube, old romex with silver sheathing, and newer romex with vinyl sheathing, I thought sure the inspector would be horrified, but there wasn't so much as a peep out of him.
Stan, that switched GFI is a great idea if sacrificing the additional receptacle is no big deal for you.
delaneymeegan
Well-known member
"the inspector"
WHAT inspector? Are you talking about the "home inspectors" that pay $20 to get an official looking badge and a blue siren to stick on the top of their mini-van?
I had one of these idiots in 2005. He totally missed the cracked heat exchanger in the furnace (big ticket item), the water heater with no gravity vent and a standing pilot (big ticket item), and the buried and sinking oil tank in the front yard (very expensive).
If I ever find another British English speaking home inspector, doing business during a real estate bubble, I'm going to kick his ass back to her royal majesties shore and make him swim the river Tymes.
WHAT inspector? Are you talking about the "home inspectors" that pay $20 to get an official looking badge and a blue siren to stick on the top of their mini-van?
I had one of these idiots in 2005. He totally missed the cracked heat exchanger in the furnace (big ticket item), the water heater with no gravity vent and a standing pilot (big ticket item), and the buried and sinking oil tank in the front yard (very expensive).
If I ever find another British English speaking home inspector, doing business during a real estate bubble, I'm going to kick his ass back to her royal majesties shore and make him swim the river Tymes.
Ralph
No big sacrifice at all.
The one that's there is a replacement. When I replaced it, I chose to do the combo switch/outlet so I could use it to turn the heater on and off.
I've changed most of the outlets here, not because there was anything wrong..mostly because I got tired of having to use two prong adapters.
(Old heater is still two prong though)
There's a few old ones here, and some scary looking ones in the basement.
Maybe I'll post some pics of those to scare you all with LOL
No big sacrifice at all.
The one that's there is a replacement. When I replaced it, I chose to do the combo switch/outlet so I could use it to turn the heater on and off.
I've changed most of the outlets here, not because there was anything wrong..mostly because I got tired of having to use two prong adapters.
(Old heater is still two prong though)
There's a few old ones here, and some scary looking ones in the basement.
Maybe I'll post some pics of those to scare you all with LOL
sudsmaster
Well-known member
Ralph,
I put a (non-GFCI) switched outlet in the laundry closet over ten years ago. A three way tap on the outlet part allows one to run the Neptune washer and gas dryer. Reason: So I could shut off all current to the pair, saving about 10 watts (they each use five watts continuously even when not running). If a GFCI switched outlet had been available at the time, I would have used one of those.
Stan,
This has been gone over here in the past, but knob and tube in and of itself isn't a problem. Older installations were generally done with more care than modern wiring. The problems that can arise are said to be primarily from homeowners improperly extending existing knob and tube circuits, overloading them. And/or blowing in cellulose insulation around the wiring, which if it gets wet can get conductive. I've also seen some concern that even fiberglass or mineral wool insulation around knob and tube wiring won't let it shed heat efficiently and that could deteriorate the old insulation. But then I wonder why the wiring is getting hot in the first place. It shouldn't if it has a properly sized breaker/fuse.
I've also read that knob and tube can be safer than Romex, since the hot and neutral wires are generally separated farther apart than in a Romex bundle, making shorts less of a risk with knob and tube. On the plus side, three wire Romex gives one the option of having a dedicated ground wire for each circuit. Grounding is probably the biggest headache with old knob and tube wiring that hasn't been compromised.
I put a (non-GFCI) switched outlet in the laundry closet over ten years ago. A three way tap on the outlet part allows one to run the Neptune washer and gas dryer. Reason: So I could shut off all current to the pair, saving about 10 watts (they each use five watts continuously even when not running). If a GFCI switched outlet had been available at the time, I would have used one of those.
Stan,
This has been gone over here in the past, but knob and tube in and of itself isn't a problem. Older installations were generally done with more care than modern wiring. The problems that can arise are said to be primarily from homeowners improperly extending existing knob and tube circuits, overloading them. And/or blowing in cellulose insulation around the wiring, which if it gets wet can get conductive. I've also seen some concern that even fiberglass or mineral wool insulation around knob and tube wiring won't let it shed heat efficiently and that could deteriorate the old insulation. But then I wonder why the wiring is getting hot in the first place. It shouldn't if it has a properly sized breaker/fuse.
I've also read that knob and tube can be safer than Romex, since the hot and neutral wires are generally separated farther apart than in a Romex bundle, making shorts less of a risk with knob and tube. On the plus side, three wire Romex gives one the option of having a dedicated ground wire for each circuit. Grounding is probably the biggest headache with old knob and tube wiring that hasn't been compromised.
Thank You Sudsmaster
For that info!
I doubt there's any insulation in the house, but after your post.. I began to think about what's been added since 1934. With those thoughts I've started to look closer at things. Including the knob and tube (where I can see it)
There is one concern I have, and post that concern with a pic later.
Back to the old heater.. Had my brother, who understands these things better than I do..
He tested this heater and found that its currently operating at 9.5 ohms.
He said "you got it working, leave it alone"
What do you all think?
For that info!
I doubt there's any insulation in the house, but after your post.. I began to think about what's been added since 1934. With those thoughts I've started to look closer at things. Including the knob and tube (where I can see it)
There is one concern I have, and post that concern with a pic later.
Back to the old heater.. Had my brother, who understands these things better than I do..
He tested this heater and found that its currently operating at 9.5 ohms.
He said "you got it working, leave it alone"
What do you all think?
So
If I use Phil's numbers it's putting out 1300 watts?
If I use Phil's numbers it's putting out 1300 watts?
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