Older Toilets and Extra Bolts

[rp2813]

I'm about to change out a 1960 toilet with a new one that's ADA height.  I may use the 1960 toilet to replace a 1947 American Standard in another bathroom.  The 1947 one works fine but is a serious water hog and the 1960 one uses significantly less, and it has a more appropriate look (mimics a sleek low one-piece) for the mid-60's bathroom where the Standard currently lives.

 

Both of these older toilets use an extra set of bolts toward the front besides the two at the rear that fasten it to the sewer pipe flange.  What is the purpose of these additional bolts?  They are presumably the wood screw type, but since the holes are spaced differently on the two toilets, I'd have to drill through tile to make new ones.  Are these extra bolts necessary for stability, or can I simply cap off the holes and use only the bolts that attach to the flange?

 

[henry200]

In my experience with older toilets those front end bolts are a bit of overkill.  Once the toilet is secured to the drain flange and a bead of caulk applied around the base it isn't going to budge unless the floor is uneven and someone is deliberately trying to "rock the boat."

 

[rp2813]

Thanks for the advice.

 

Someone is rocking the boat a lot of the time, but not deliberately.  Since my partner Dave had his stroke, he tends to make a hard landing and has managed to loosen all three toilets in the house.  There are grab bars or other means to prevent free-fall, but he doesn't always use them.  So, the ADA height toilet is going in the bathroom he uses most.  I have read testimonials that  just a couple of inches in height can make a big difference.  We shall see.

 

I was thinking along similar lines regarding the extra bolts being overkill.  They didn't help to keep the toilet I'm replacing secure, so I don't see much point in using them if I decide to install it in the other bathroom.

 

[westie2]

Ralph have you thought about keeping the toliet and using a riser for the toliet?  Here is one for on the floor thaty also have then to fit on the rim.  Did this for my dad before he died.

 

 

http://www.accessibleconstruction.com/services/bathrooms/toilevator.html

 

[westie2]

Ralph

Here is another and this even helps clean.

 

 

http://www.solutioncomfortseat.com/sol-video-footage01.htm

 

[qsd-dan]

The 4 bolt pattern was commonly used up until the mid 60's. Some makes/models changed over sooner while lesser common makes seemed to keep that pattern through the late 60's and even into the early 70's. Never had a 2 bolt toilet shift on me in 30+ years, but at 145 pounds, it probably isn't likely to occur, even if I tried. When I replaced a highly loathed 1.6GPF with a 1932 American Standard 5GPF 3 years ago, I just installed the toilet using the rear 2 bolts. No problems so far. However, it may be worth the effort to drill and install the 2 front bolts if you partner is already loosening them up, though.

The 1947 one works fine but is a serious water hog and the 1960 one uses significantly less

Actually, the difference is probably only 1 GPF between both toilets. 5 GPF was common for all American Standard toilets up until the late 50's when they came out with the Cadet model (the larger models, like the Madera/Manaco still used 5 GPF). The Cadet used 4 GPF up until 1977 when they went to 3.5 GPF. However, you may have an incredibly rare 7 GPF model. I kinda doubt it, but it's possible.

 

BTW, is the tank on the '47 AS a wall mount or bowl mount? Round bowl or elongated?

 

[rp2813]

Charles & Dan:

Charles, the bathroom where the new toilet has been installed (Yay! It went fairly smoothly) is the main one that guests use, so I decided against a riser on the existing toilet.  It just so happens that it's also the closest bathroom to the master bedroom (which doesn't have its own bathroom) so it's the one Dave uses most often.

 

Dan, the tank on the '47 is pretty tall, and I've been wondering if it might hold 7 gallons.  It's attached to the toilet, not the wall.   It's a round bowl model.  If you'd be interested in it, just let me know.  It will be free to a good home.  It's white and in good shape all around.  The flush handle is original and a little pitted.  That's the only cosmetic issue.  Mechanically it's fine.  I found a flapper with a large diameter ring specifically designed to fit over older fatter overflow tubes, so I was finally able to get rid of the rod & ball arrangement that was always getting stuck, and it has a modern Fluidmaster fill valve instead of the long-armed float ball type, so the flush/fill system has been updated.

 

 

 

[polkanut]

Ralph,

You can do what you want, but I would install the extra bolts just for peace of mind sake.  Our 1935 American Standard "Modernus" wall mount toilet has the 4 bolt pattern, and after being in place all these years it is still as solid as a rock.  I too have replaced the old insides with Fluidmaster parts, and I also placed 1 1/2 bricks in the tank to help decrease water usage.  I haven't noticed any decreased flushing ability in the 11 years of this set up.

[this post was last edited: 7/24/2012-07:45]

 

[rp2813]

Tim, you mean the tank is wall-mounted, right?  I would love to have entire toilets that are wall-mounted.

 

I think I'll use the extra pair of bolts when I replace the AS toilet with the 1960 one.  I just need to get my hands on a couple of drill bits to go through the tile.

 

After a closer look, I think the AS tank holds 5 gallons max.  I imagined the contents of a 5-gallon water jug fitting in the tank, and I don't think it would hold much more than that.

 

[polkanut]

Yes, only the tank is wall-mounted.

 

[rp2813]

My dad replaced the wall-mounted tank 1926 toilets right after moving into this house in Fall of 1960.  The two existing bathrooms were in shambles.  Well, the whole house was.

 

Here's a shot of the 1947 one I'll be rotating out.  My dad got it for free and installed it in a bathroom that he added on in 1967.  It sat in the yard behind the garage for quite a while first.  Total DIY/shoestring budget project that was!  The floor tiles are all "seconds" from a local bone yard.

 

[rp2813]

The date stamp.

 

 

 

[polkanut]

The date stamp for mine is on the bottom side of the tank cover, 6/28/1935.

[this post was last edited: 7/25/2012-10:00]

 

[circlew]

Ralph, the toilet you show above is just like the one we had, except ours was Ming Green. It was original to the house, which was built in 1952. It had to be replaced in the mid 80's because one of my mom's friends (who was quite large) broke it. We got another A-S in a lighter color called Honeydew. It was a good match to the ceramic tile, so didn't look too out of place.

 

[polkanut]

Hey Dan,

Good to see you posting again!  Don't be such a stranger.

 

[rp2813]

The brand new tract home my parents bought in 1949 had the same AS toilet in green as well as the sink and tub, but I don't know if it was Ming Green.   More like a powdery minty green, not a deep green, so it could have been Honeydew.

 

I'm hoping I can get rid of the '47 toilet by offering it for free on Craigslist.  Otherwise I'll wait until the neighboring town has their big trash hauling program in the spring and drop it off on the curb at a friend's house over there.  I don't think it would be worth hauling up to Ohmega Salvage or Urban Ore, both of which are located in Berkeley and seemed to be on toilet overload when I was last there.

 

[qsd-dan]

Dang, if that '47 had an elongated bowl, I'd be all over it. *Sigh*

 

I replaced 2 low flow toilets here with vintage (more like antique now, I guess). The first is a '53 AS, which happened to have an elongated bowl intact with the original ergonomic seat. Didn't think anything about the elongated bowl design until I used it and then immediately fell in love with it. Just can't get myself to go back now. The second toilet is a '32 AS (elongated, of course), which I found out later is an incredibly rare model. My 3rd toilet is from 1970 and original to the house. It's the famous 4049 model that's rated the best 4 gallon flush toilet ever made, but it's a round bowl and I have been leisurely looking for an art deco elongated bowl toilet to replace it. I have a buddy who will give the 4049 a good home, so I don't feel guilty about getting rid of it.

 

I actually got a hold of a '44 wall mounted reverse trap AS toilet from Craigslist about a year ago. However, I found out the hard way that I need another 2 inches of "rough in" space to accommodate that elbow. Got all new parts for it too (new chrome elbow, fill valve, flush valve, seals, ect). Bummer. Oh well, I'll throw it up on CL. I'm sure someone will enjoy it.

 

I saw an original pillbox toilet for sale on CL a few weeks ago. Would LOVE one of those, but that rough in space is a problem again. Damn 70's house.....

 

[rp2813]

Dan, I'm totally with you re:  elongated bowls.   That's the style of the new toilet.  Men generally appreciate the extra room an elongated bowl provides.

 

[tomturbomatic]

one of my mom's friends (who was quite large) broke it.

That probably is near the top of embarrassing, but funny, bathroom incidents in other people's houses, way beyond clogging it with a monster dump although probably not as bad as creating a huge overflow that causes damage to surrounding carpeted areas and ceiling failure in rooms beneath the throne room. I would not have been able to keep a straight face while listening to her explain what happened. I might have needed oxygen for the laughter. Then again, everyone might have needed oxygen after what she did in the bathroom. Can you tell us about the damage? Sorry for my puerile interest in the event.

 

[rp2813]

I'm actually kind of surprised Dave hasn't cracked or broken any of the toilets in this house over the past 30 months.  The new ADA-height one (AS Clean Cadet 3) does make a big difference.  There are no sounds of crashing down on the seat or rattling of the tank lid anymore.  The low-flow (1.28 GPF) flush action is remarkably effective, although for bigger jobs holding down the flush lever just slightly longer isn't a bad idea.  I can definitely live with it, and over all it's quieter in all respects than the toilet it replaced.

 

I pulled up the '47 toilet yesterday.  Both flange bolts were loose.  One was bent and not even attached.  I had the later toilet from the other bathroom cleaned up and ready to install, but found the closet mounting flange to be an old-school type that's slightly higher than floor level.  The newer toilet doesn't have the clearance required for such an arrangement, so I'm stuck.  The '47 can't go back because the front pair of floor bolts snapped off when I attempted to remove them

 

I'm pretty sure the closet mount was installed using molten lead, so there's no way to fix it without a plumber getting involved.  Fortunately, I know of a good guy who I'm hoping can get out here soon to install an up-to-date flange. 

 

[circlew]

Actually, Frances (now deceased many years) didn't know she broke the commode. I went in a few minutes after she was in there, and saw water on the floor, and wiped it up. My mom went in an hour or so later, and found water on the floor halfway to the door. Plumber came next day, and found the bowl was broken where the tank connects, and said it couldn't be fixed.

I was under strict orders to NEVER say anything to Frances about it. Whenever I heard she was coming to visit, I'd joke we'd better go buy another toilet just in case.

 

[rp2813]

Out with the old

In with the new(er).  I'm happy to have a more period-correct fixture in this bathroom.  The '47 always looked out of place in there.

 

 

 

[qsd-dan]

Looks great, but the ’47 didn’t look out of place to me. However, I have ’32 installed in a '70 home, so what the hell do I know, lol.

Is that a 1 piece F-2000 American Standard? Looks like it. Always found those 1930's-1960's 1 piece toilets to be an interesting design. Some models have a funky flush valve setup that I believe is hard to find parts for now.....so I'm told.

 

[rp2813]

It only looks expensive

Dan, the replacement toilet just did its job on you -- it's a two-piece made to look like a one-piece.  Flushing mechanism is like any that of any average toilet.  You can see the seam where the tank mounts onto the base.   I can't find any manufacturer information stamped on it anywhere.  I like the look of it so if one commode had to go, it was the old AS.

 

Rest assured I would have reversed the situation if I had a +/- 1950 bathroom where the AS would coordinate.

 

[qsd-dan]

LOL!

I be damned! I didn't know AS made a 1 piece and a 1 piece look-a-like.

Learn something new every day

 

[rp2813]

I don't think it's made by AS.  My dad was cheap, which is why it's a two-piece, and it's probably an off-brand.

 

In case there's any speculation out there, here's an idea of what the rest of the bathroom looks like.  All it needs is one of those chain lamps with oil running down fishing line, but the contemporary sconces were cheap at Lowe's.  They replaced carriage style lamps that absolutely had to go. 

 

[circlew]

A-S toilets

The one-piece toilet shown in the ad below was what was installed in my dad's aunt and uncles house. They had two, both in White, and were original from when the house was built in 1936. I always liked them. Ralph's newer two-piece is similar.

I've been in other houses that had them in Black, Corallin (warm Pink), and T'ang Red (Maroon).

Ralph, the 1949 Standard toilet would have been Ming Green. They also had a beautiful darker color in the 40's-50's called Tourmaline, which was a deep Blue Green. Surf Green was a shade from the 60's, and was very similar to Ming Green, just slightly bluer. Honeydew was an 80's color.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Standard-Sanitary-Bathroom-Improvement/dp/B005HFR5RY

 

[qsd-dan]

That '60 toilet sure looks like a 60's American Standard. The flush handle screams late 40's - early 60's AS. However, I have seen a lot of non OEM toilet handles installed on various different model and make toilets, so I could be wrong.

After seeing that bathroom pic, I now have to admit that toilet looks much more at home in that bathroom than the '47 did. Bathroom looks great, BTW. Seems most people trash their homes these days (and the stuff in it), and original equipped bathrooms that age look really run down. Kudos to you and your family for taking care of your stuff.

Tom, the one piece toilets you describe sounds like the early F-2000 American Standard toilets. They probably looked exactly like this.[this post was last edited: 8/2/2012-02:44]

 

[circlew]

Hey Dan, the toilets did look just like your pic. Both had elongated bowls.

 

[rp2813]

Thanks Dan, and I'm glad to get some validation on the more period-correct replacement toilet.  I actually found a 1959 date on it.  The flush lever is original.  I still can't find any evidence of manufacturer.  Maybe it was the toilet equivalent back then to a fake Rolex from Hong Kong -- although it was definitely made in U.S.A. 

 

That is a beautiful F-2000 you posted.  Built for the ages.