Parential Responsibility

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The plain truth is------

even a relatively inexpensive and innocent looking little Mazda3 will do 140MPH! Most adults don't know that, but the teens sure do!
Of course, the Mazda won't handle like a BMW at those (or any other) speeds.

Its all relative folks. Old or young, rich or poor,etc.,etc., when its your time you are 'outta here. Makes no difference what takes you out----you are still gone.
 
when its your time you are 'outta here. Makes no differ

Agreed BUT why take someone else with them! Think about it before making such a cavalier statement. That someone else could be YOU or someone that you love dearly!!!!

We're not talking about fate we are talking about responsibilty.

Rich
 
when its your time you are 'outta here.

Nope, sorry I don't accept that one bit.

With that principle applied to those kids, you're saying they were born and followed a path that just led to that BMW and their deaths?
And poor Natalee Holloway, she was born and lived her life, following a path that led her to Aruba and her disappearance?

No way...thats pre-destination, and I do not accept it. Those kids died because they made BAD CHOICES, not because it was their time. Same with Natalee, she's gone because she crossed paths with the wrong person(s), not because it was her time.
 
I have a similar situation to this looming within my own family. My sister's (yes the one with the strange behaviour) brother-in-law was married for 8 years and had two daughters. Then one morning he "woke up gay" and left his wife and kids for a drag queen. He maintained contact with his kids and gave them everything they wanted at all times. He calls it his "guilt trip". His kids are now 19 and 16.
The 19 year old is alright, not too many problems, but the 16 year old is a holy terror. Before she turned 16 she said demanded that Daddy buy her a Mercedes Benz for her 16th birthday. He reasoning is that if Daddy can afford one for himself, then he can afford one for her. When Daddy said no, she said she'd kill herself. Well she didn't get a Mercedes, she got a Lexus instead. BTW, when she was 14 she didn't get what she wanted and broke out all the glass doors in the kitchen cabinets while Daddy & DQ were out.
I discussed this crash with my sister and told her that I imagine that she has an almost identical situation on her hands. I just know that lil' B---- is going to wrap that Lexus around a tree. My sister said that "It's not my kid, I can't say anything".
This family has tried counseling, but Daddy thinks it hasn't been effective. I think the kid should be carried off to a mental health center for evaluation.
One thing I find peculiar is that in my somewhat limited knowledge of the gay community, people just don't "wake up gay". I have heard a lot of guys knew they were gay at an early age. If someone knows they are gay, why in the world would they get married to a woman and have kids?
Not to sound harsh, but I think the problem goes back to the beginning. If he had not gotten married in the first place, he wouldn't be finding himself in this situation today.
What is the general feeling within the gay community about gays who get married and have kids?
 
uh oh...

Whirl, you are opening a can of worms with the gay/straight thing!!

I have two words for this 16 year old terror: MILITARY SCHOOL. Certainly if daddy can afford a Mercedes, he can afford to send his little cherub someplace where she can learn some respect and manners.
If she's this bad at 16, what will she be like at 21?

Maybe its time too for daddy to stop with the guilt and start being a father. If he can wake up gay one morning there is hope this meat-stick can wake up a good father too.

The killing herself thing makes me chuckle, I remember my sister and my mom having an argument over something...we were high school age, and I remember my sister saying if she didn't get her way she'd kill herself. My mother didn't blink. She went to the drawer and pulled out a butter knife and placed it on the table in front of my sister saying: "Here, Kill yourself. Sorry we don't own a gun, and you can't use my good knives...now go ahead and do it fast while you still know everything and don't mess up my house doing it."
Yesterday(Feb 4th) my sister turned 42.
I was raised by awesome people.
 
I was a bit worried about being flamed about this one, but since I am asking about this from a uninformed point of view I was hoping that those in the know would be helpful.
By the way Jeff, this is all taking place just up the road from you in Barrington.

And people wonder why I don't visit my relatives!
 
~What is the general feeling within the gay community about gays who get married and have kids?

Marry a man or marry a woman?
I'd say there are many, many opinions withn "the community" regarding this issue.
AFAIK, We have not been able to unify on this one and post it to our official "agenda". *LOL

Having a baby:
Two gay men decide to have a baby. They mix their seed, then have a surrogate mother artificially inseminated. When the baby is born, they rush to the hospital. Two dozen babies are in the ward, 23 of which are crying and screaming. One, over in the corner, is smiling serenely.A nurse comes by, and to the gays' delight, she points out the happy child as theirs.
"Isn't it wonderful?" Neil says to Bob. "All these unhappy children, and ours is so happy." The nurse says, "He's happy now, but just wait until we take the pacifier out of his butt."

*LOL*
 
Easy Endora; don't get huffy............

Neil and Bob. LOL ROFL LMAO.

Andrew "Dice" Clay:
Are those you names, or is that what you do?

OMG I'm crying laughing here.
 
Toggles, you have me rolling this morning!

I just love your sense of humor!

Whirl: I seldom go anywhere near Barrington, well maybe through a little corner of it now and again to go hit a junk store out in Dundee, but thats about it.

In response to the gay/straight/married thing, my take is this guy was gay all along, he got married because he most likely could not accept himself as a gay man. I doubt though that being married curbed his appetite for men.
I have a good friend who is gay and was married with two kids, and trolling the internet constantly looking for guys while married. I kept asking him: "Why stay married if this is what you are doing?" his answer was "for my kids."
Needless to say, wifey found out, and not only did she divorce him, she took him for everything he had, and outed him everyplace she could, pretty much ruining him financially and professionally. She didn't understand anything, and was pretty much a total bitch, spelled with a capital "C"
Now let me ask you something: How likely is is you're going to wake up tomorrow morning with your sexual orientation changed?
I'm thankful this morning I was still gay when I woke up!
 
Rich,

I did my student teaching in the Bronx.
My late husband was a cop, first in LA than in homicide in San Francisco. He talked a lot.

I have taught in the US and in several countries in Europe, including volunteer work with foreign youth seeking asylum.

At the age of 49, it is reasonable to say that I have been in close contact with not-so-privileged and highly privileged kids over the last 25 years. One generation more, if you permit my own youth.

I don't see a difference. Truly, I don't. Sure, the problems are different today. Yes, the United States has some severe problems in many inner-city areas. But let's be realistic here.

One, research has long since shown that teenagers aren't just reckless, fair more troubling - they calculate the odds very well. It is just that they lack the experience to appreciate consequences.

Two, reporting is far more sensational today than it was in 'our' youth. Mother Nature, red in tooth and claw, has always taken care of those who try to shave the odds too thinly. We just didn't hear about it as often.

Finally, most of us here are gay. Whether it is our fabulous gene or the simple fact that gay men chose other venues to explore risk, our teenage years are different to those which the heterosexuals spend.

Now, if anyone wants to discuss the failing of our generation and that of our own children as parents, well, there I think you will find me full of criticism, just look at my various comments on my own red-neck family.

I gently suggest we are all just a mite bit jealous of the young, our perspectives are colored by the wistful longing to have their youth and our hard won achievements.

*
 
Thanks for the info. I didn't think that someone could "wake up gay". To me, it's unbelievable that this guy could get away with this excuse with so many people for so many years.
Karen and I have decided to just keep our distance from this mess . But I still feel that nothing good is going to come out of it. Heck, this is one of those cases where truth is stranger than fiction.
99.9% of the time, we live a peaceful life with nothing out of the ordinary ever happening. At this age, this is the way we like it.
 
Well whoop-tee-doo for your Subaru------

You don't have to accept my OPINION of pre-destination any more that I or anyone else on this forum would accept your OPINION as having originated from the lips of G-D.

My point is that IMO sometimes things that appear horrendous to us may actually be something else (much bigger than us) playing-out.
 
Gyrafoam,

I meant no disrespect to you. Like you, I am just expressing an opinion.
Someone else on her expressed that mother nature has a way of weeding things out that may be a little out there, I don't know if I agree with that either.

I did read the rest of the articles on this accident that were connected with the most recent updates. The kid driving had a history of being a hot dog behind the wheel, 4 tickets in 2 years, one of which was for driving on a suspended license.
What was this kid doing driving any car, much less an $85,000 BMW?
The car was registered to the kid's dad, but from the message boards it looks like the kid spent alot of time driving it.
So should the kid's father be liable?
 
I think this is going to be proved as a case of parential negligence. That kid shouldn't have been driving period. Runways are for aircraft.
What would have happened if Mr. Travolta was on final approach to the runway when the kids were on it? Mr. Travolta does do a lot of flying in the middle of the night. His last trip to PHX was done between 1am & 3am.
Since this airfield doesn't have a control tower he may have performed a go around or seen the kids only after his Boeing 707 was on the ground below flying speed. Once you pop those spoilers on the wing and engage thrust reverse, you are going to stay on the ground no matter what.
The victims families have already retained lawyers. We'll see how the drivers parents feel when the court begins to parcel out all of their assets to the parents of the other kids who went along for the ride.
 
I totally agree

Parental negligence...I can't help but wonder most about the driver's parents, and what their reactions and feelings are. Yes they have lost just as much as the other families...BUT it was their son driving, and his record was not even close to sterling. He should not have been driving at all. The kid was only 18 and it was their car. They are responsible.
The other 4 boys were innocent victims.

Luckily enough the airstrip was not in use... imagine the carnage had these young men encountered any airplane, not to mention a Boeing 707!!
 
Mother Nature

Is as much a useful conceit as the Christian trinity or our current theory(ies) of evolution or the (anal retentives, I know, I know) body of 'natural laws'.

But the emphasis is on 'useful'.

Some people prefer to say: "The house always gets its cut".
Or, 'if you play the odds long enough, you're bound to lose...'
Or, 'what goes around, comes around'...
Whatever, however, there is a reason it is called 'reckless' driving.

My own personal belief is, yes, 'Mother Nature' does tend to rid the species of people like that idiot kid over time. Sometimes, she misses her mark and they live to breed. Still and all, jerk offs like this kid or the assholes who were taunting that poor tiger in San Francisco get exactly what they deserve.
My sympathies there were for the tiger.

If you prefer to see life as a totally random series of non-related events, fine with me. I'll continue to cut the deck, look both ways before I cross the street and, yes wear my seatbelt.
 
I've spent the vast majority of my life around death (whether it was pre-destined or not---who knows), spent well over 30 years in Funeral Service, and nearly as many years on the various burial committee's of the various congregations I have been a member of over the years----including the one I am currently a member of.

Tragedies happen. People are anguished. Rightfully so.
It is human nature to look for----something---someone--- anything---- to blame. Kids do stupid things, adults do stupid things, its all about being human. And the cycle is as old as the beginning of mankind and, I figure, it will remain so to the end of mankind.

In the meantime, there is the holocaust our government created in Iraq,the thousands of our dead troops, or the millions of dying people in Africa,various and sundry genocides, etc.,etc. Kind of makes the incident with the teens pale in comparison.
Sure makes me feel insignificant in the "big picture"!
 
Panthera,

I've heard and even used some of the "proverbs" you posted. One that you did not mention is: We reap what we sow.
Perhaps its Mother Nature, perhaps fate, perhaps nothing at all, but I do honestly believe in Karma, and what comes around goes around.

Gryafoam,
Yes we do always look for someone, something, anything to blame in the case of such an event. Our human nature will always want to put the blame someplace else, rather than own it for ourselves.
This wreck was senseless. Think of how easily it could have been prevented too, by an event so small as the withholding of a set of keys, or by saying a firm "NO!"
I also agree too about the war and the economy and other events around the world. However I will say that 5 kids in a BMW in Florida are just as important as the above events, because it shows a slice of what some families and kids are like today.
Its just as horrific as the war is too.
 
Travolta's Home at Jumolair

JT is quite the aviation buff. His home is decorated as an airline terminal and he has a jetway where he can taxi up his Boeing 707. IN this photo of his compound his Gulfstream Jet wasn't present, but you can easily see the B-707.

2-5-2008-20-59-27--whirlcool.jpg
 
~Is as much a useful concept as the Christian trinity or our current theory(ies) of evolution.

My dear, most people don't "get" that the Holy Trinty may also be symbolic of body, mind and soul; all of which working in symphony are necessary for life. (i.e. to have living breathing, functioning human beings!)

The trinity (body, mind, spirit/soul) AFAIK is also represented by each triangle within the Star of David. The one pointing up is the body reaching to its spritiual /heavenly side. The one pointing down is G-d (or it can be stated as the spriitual side of us) descending down upon the physical.

So I myself try not to jump to conclusions that such as "There is nothing to XYZ", when in fact there may be some (major) truth in it. We just may not see it (yet). Symbolism was very necessary (and better seen/uderstood, I daresay) in earlier times when the masses were vastly uneducated.

So as you can see, Juadism and Christianly have some very deep and beautiful concepts, as do ALL religions. It is the twisted interpretations by the mentally and spiritully limited as well as those that lack the ability to see the symbolism and universal truths within them that cause religious faiths to be manifested in the present as ugly.

As long as the spiritual side of us is not acknowledged and nurtured properly, the thirst for things and experiences physical will be forever unsatiated. And as we have already stated, tragedies like the above-described will occur. Even sadder when avoidable.

(Descends from pulpit and soap-box.)

Perhaps sometimes the intended meaning is just plain missed...

2-5-2008-22-22-32--Toggleswitch.jpg
 
Thank you to the person who sent me this pic.

As much as there is a lot to be said for tragic loss of life, Sometimes you have no choice but to to say "YAY" to Darwinism..........

G-d don't like ugly.
She ain't too big on stupidity either.

I thought that was a computer that was plugged-in in the center of the pool. Now I'm thinking it's a grill.

2-5-2008-22-31-32--Toggleswitch.jpg
 
At some point, I think we're going to need a "Parental Responsibility Act". Something to the effect of, "You had 'em- you're responsible for what they do until they're of age."

Sandy,

Probably not a bad idea since so many parents have proven that they won't do it on their own, but wasn't is pretty much this way when we were growing up (I'm only 10 years behind you)? It was never official, but when you, for example, caused damage, your parents anteed (anted?) up. They took it out of your hide or allowance, but they took the responsibility for it.

Now, it's as if a lot of parents teach their kids more how to get away with it, or lessen the importance of it, rather than to take ownership or responsibility for it.

Also, I can't say I agree with Panthera's assessment that 'mo teenage years were that much different from those of the het teenagers. How many of us, at least the men, were out? How many fooled around with dating girls? How many of us were that different? I would suggest that the number would be pretty small. We were all teenagers, that's it!

And, too, as far as being jealous of today's teens... count me out! I'm glad I was raised to know the importance of doing things right, having to work, and not having everything handed to me on a platter. Oh, yeah, let's not forget the instilling of entitlement the kids get now. When we were growing up, you were only entitled to what you earned.

Wow. Somebody must have changed my batteries! :-)

Chuck
 
Given the

sadly much higher rate of teenage suicide among gay and lesbian teens, taking into account the gay bashing and not forgetting the tremendous pressure placed upon us as teenagers to behave as if we were 'heterosexual' I stand by my statement absolutely.
Gosh, Chuck...what the hell did I do to you? It is beginning to sound as tho' you'd argue with me if I said today was January 6, 2008...obviously we see things differently. And if my strong statements have offended, sorry. But, gosh, golly, gee - if anyone is to blame for the poor behavior of today's youth, it is our generation and that of our children. We blew it...
Now, as for jerks like those bastards who were taunting that tiger - the ninth ring of hell is reserved for people who torture animals.
And that asshole who killed four other people, nope, no sympathy from me. But let's get real. You show me the genetic drift behind this behavior and I'll believe you. Until then, how about looking at what *we* did wrong?
Example: My parents took us out to eat in restaurants as children. We were expected to sit quietly, not fidget, not to speak loudly, in short, not to disturb the other diners.
If we didn't follow the rules, we got our rear ends paddled right there and were taken out of the restaurant directly. Not to return any time soon.
Just last week, I was in a rather cozy Mexican restaurant. The sort where families are welcome. A young child was screaming its lungs out, throwing food and making life for everyone difficult. All the parents did was to ask her not to and warn her that there would be a 'time out' if she didn't stop.
After 15 minutes of torture, they finally left.
Now, when that young girl grows up and behaves badly, just who is to blame for it? She will have to suffer the consequences, yet the guilt lies clearly with her parents.
Before I end my rant, I have met many American teens over the last several years who were well spoken, pleasant and decent people. I maintain: Lighten up a bit and stop blaming the kids of today for our loss of youth!
 
Panthera,

Sorry you got that feeling. It certainly ISN'T the case! And I don't remember placing the blame on the kids. I merely stated that they are doing worse things.

You wrote:
"Regarding all the comments about teenagers being more reckless today than we were...like hell they are... Come on folks, 'kids' today are no better or worse than we were."

They most certainly ARE worse than we were, and I just can't agree that the teens are the same as we were, no matter whose fault it is! There are two different facts to think about here:

1) are they worse, yes or no (the simple question, without taking anything like blame into consideration).

I say yes, unequivocally. For example, too many carry weapons of different sorts, up to and including knives and guns, and they have much less respect for elders and authority than we did.

2) Is it their fault, yes or no.

I say no for the most part, but, that still doesn't mean that they're not worse!!!! The parents are to blame. No doubt about that. Your mex restaurant kid should have been taken out after a much shorter time, but probably wasn't because that would have interrupted the parents meal and time away for dinner! And, what's all this "time out" BS? I don't think kids have a sense of future punishment, and what it really means. A warming of the ass right then and there, like we would have gotten, is unmistakable. Unfortunately, a parent or two in the restaurant would have called the local authorities and charged child abuse. BTW, in my family, after the paddlin' we were expected to still continue with dinner, though properly.

And, if you go back to the origins of this thread, and my initial reply, you just said the same thing I did: the parents are to blame! This whole thing is about parental responsibility! We've merely gotten to talkin' about what happens when parents don't fulfill that responsibility.

Again, there was nothing against you in any of my posts. I was just expressing my thoughts on your thoughts. Looks like we just have to agree to disagree on certain points, and that's fine.

Chuck
p.s.- it's February (ducking and running)
 
Now lets go here

Michael and I discussed this last night, and now Chuck and Whirlcool and Panthera and Gyrafoam, what are your thoughts on this:
The kid driving was 18, the car registered to daddy. It's my opinion that daddy is responsible for what happened, the car was his.
Michael, playing devil's advocate said no, the parents should not be responsible as the kid was 18 and an *adult*

I say BULLS**T!
if the kid was living under the parent's roof, then they are responsible.

What do you all think?

One question I have too: The news articles never really said who the principal driver of the BMW was. The Kid? The dad?
 
Kids, parents, and responsibility.

Parents raise children, but they aren't the only ones responsible. Teachers, TV, popular culture, and friends all play a part in raising a child (it takes a village...)

I'm not saying that parents are off the hook, far from it, it's just that there are also other factors at play. Also, by age 16 or so, a child is far more of an adult than a child of age 9. It's more difficult to mold someone into being a responsible adult later in life than earlier.
I also believe that, like adults, some children/teenagers can just be idiotic morons without care for life, limb, or property. It's unfortunate, but it happens. It is the responsibility of parents to do their best at all times, regardless of other factors, but the context of their "village" counts an awful lot. I'm not trying to defend poor parenting, just trying to broaden the scope.

A few examples:
Why do car commercials always show the most irresponsible driving imaginable?
The Fast & the Furious.
The very materialistic culture in which we live (except for us, the taste of people here at AW.org is infinitely better than society in general).
The push for violence in entertainment.
etc. etc. etc.

Parents can't isolate their kids from everyone and everything else (I have seen the results, it's not good). It's easy to apply blame exclusively to parents because they should be easy to identify and deal with. It's much more difficult to address societal issues successfully. I don't have a good answer for how to fix it all. I don't think any one person can fix it all. I think it would require a shift in parenting, schools, pop. culture, and society in general.

Stir stir stir (and I hope I haven't offended anyone because that was certainly not the intent),
Dave

What the heck was a kid doing with a super-expensive high-performance luxury car, anyway? I worked in a grocery store for my very low-performance 12-year old Volvo. (Still have the Volvo, no longer bagging groceries)
 
Vicarious Liability

In NY,CT,RI there is a vicarous liability law which makes the registered owner of the vehicle responsible,as well as the driver. In these states, you cannot "lease" a vehicle, you get "smart buy" packages that work like a lease in that it subracts the vale of the car at the end of the term from the total financed. The title is held by the "Smart Buy" customer. The option to purchase is a baloon payment at the end of the lease,or a trade in for that vale.
It goes back to the early 1920's. If your chauffer hits and kills someone, you, the owner of the vehicle is also responsible since you provided the means to cause the damage. BAck to the 2008 era. Obviously, in a taxi, you don't own the vehicle, so if your driver runs someone over, your name is not on the title to that cab.
We have strange laws on the books that vary by state. The parent who lets a kid use their car takes on the liabiliy of whatever the teen does. You're giving a kid a 40,000 car registered to you to go out on graduation night, what do you think they will be doing?
 

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