Persil VS Skip-Similarities and differencies

[liamy1]

Colour deteregents

We have them here in the UK.

Both P&G and Unilever TOL products (Ariel and Persil) have a standard and a colour version.

As do all the Supermarket own brands (whether it's Sainsbury's, Tesco, Asda and Lidl/Aldi etc).

The "Mid" brands - Daz, Surf or the specific feature brands - Bold and Fairy don't have a specific colour version (they all did dabble with them in the early 90s but don't have a version labelled as colour specifically).

But the usual advice is to use a Powder with oxygen bleach for white loads and a liquid/capsule for colour loads as liquids don't contain oxygen bleach at all. (They are still available, but both Ariel and Persil have really scaled back their colour care POWDER products).

 

[grwasher_expert]

Lidl's Formil is available in Greece too,both in regular and color version.But as most people wash their coloreds at low temperatures with liquids or capsules,i don't find any reason for buying special bleachless powder for coloreds,powders are mostly used for whites or light coloreds.

 

[dixan]

"They are still available, but both Ariel and Persil have really scaled back their colour care POWDER products"
Thank Heavens, not the same case here. On the opposite, Unilever launched their colour powder this year after many years of only "universal" OMO on the market. All manufacturers offer colour powder and there is no sign of scaling back.

GRWasher_expert,
here the powders still have the largest market share even though the companies try very hard to push the liquids (because they are cheaper to manufacture, but are sold at the same price as the powders).
I refuse to use liquids - they are horrible for the washing machine. They contain substances called "thickeners". They form a film on the inside of the machine - great substratum for bacterial and mould growth, which leads to horrible smell. The same applies to the softeners but they are even worse because of other ingredients. No liquids in my machine, only powders.

 

[liamy1]

Colour deteregents

Yes unfortunately, there is much push on the liquids, gels and the caspsules. BUT like you, Powder is still at the moment, our biggest selling format.

So there is now only one box size of colour care powder from Ariel and Persil (they used to have 3 or 4 different sizes).

Powder tablets look to be on the way out too.

Suppose with the colour detergents, I can understand it, as there is no difference between a colour care powder, and a colour care liquid - just the format.

With a standard powder vs liquid, there is a difference of the oxygen bleaches being in the powder, but not the liquid.

I don't mind liquids too much, but would NEVER use them exclusively, as you say, it would wreck the washing machine. Especially the Gels from P&G

So I tend to use liquids for colours and powder for whites, and I probably have as many white washes as colour washes.

 

[grwasher_expert]

Liquids work better at low temperatures because they dissolve immediately.Powders genetally clean better because they contain more enzymes than liquids,but they barely disolve at cold or tepid water,and undisolved powder leaves white stains on dark clothes.So powder rocks on warm/hot water but when you wash at 30ºC,liquids are the best option if you don't want your darks full of white marks.If you want to avoid using liquids,you should wash at minimum 40 ºC.

 

[dixan]

I told you - liquids are cheaper to produce and the sell them at the same price as the powder. That's why they push. The only thing liquids are better then powders is that they wash oily stains better. (Liquid detergents contain higher amount on nonionic surfactants; powders contain smaller amount because nonionics are liquid at room temperature and powders become sticky and hard to use.)

All the detergents here are for 3 or 4, 20, 40 and 60 washes with no exception. On special offer sometimes we have 30, 50, 80 etc. Most of the people prefer and buy 20 washes.

Tablets... Useless. Persil (Henkel) launched tablets several years ago and stopped the very fast - expensive and not as good as powder.
Capsules - expensive, but better then liquid, because they don't contain thickeners.

 

[dixan]

GRWasher_expert,
I wash my darks with colour powder at 30° and I have no white marks at all. Never.
Actually, nowadays powders dissolve pretty well even in cold water.

 

[liamy1]

Speaking of...

Powders. I have just been to Lidl's and I had a look at the Formil; they have been proper compacted down in size - they're a 25 wash box and would dare say they are not much bigger than Ariel's etc 10 wash box size.

I did mention on another thread, I wonder if we would see a return to truly compact powders.

 

[aquacycle]

clean better because they contain more enzymes

That's not true. Powders clean better because they contain oxygen based bleaching agents, whereas liquids don't.

I very very rarely use liquid. When I do, I use Ecover Non Bio. High surfactant count but no OBA's - great for jeans or anything where the dye runs a lot. Indigo dye is a particular pain in the ass for this.

I've never found liquids to wash anywhere near as well as powder - why pay more for an inferior product?

I ditched colour powder years ago after it was leaving behind deodorant marks and underarms were rank! Switched to bio powder for 90% of my washing and not had any issues since.

 

[dixan]

"Speaking of...

Powders. I have just been to Lidl's and I had a look at the Formil; they have been proper compacted down in size - they're a 25 wash box and would dare say they are not much bigger than Ariel's etc 10 wash box size.

I did mention on another thread, I wonder if we would see a return to truly compact powders."

Yes, Dalli Werke, the manufacturer of Formil, shank the dose for medium hard water and normal soil from 75 g/115 ml to 65 g/85 ml (this was the dose of the most famous Persil megaperls).
On the opposite, P&G increased the dose from 102 ml to 115 ml.

Don't expect truly compact powder ever soon. Now it's absolutely possible for the big companies to release powder with dosage 5-7 grams per kilogram dry laundry, based on polymers, which lacks the inactive ingredients like sodium sulphate and heavy and bulky ingredients like zeolites, sodium carbonate, etc. Nowadays the washing machines use very small amounts of water, they need truly compact powders with no insolubles and I expected proper reaction earlier, but I don't know why they don't do anything about it. They only make cosmetic changes and nothing really innovative.

 

[launderess]

Powder degergents clean well....

Yes, there is the fact that powder detergents often contain bleaching agents which assist in cleaning; but their main strength lies in pH level. Simply put alkaline detergents are good not only as shifting soils but have a cleansing, sanitizing and fresh smelling.

Body soils including perspiration are mainly acidic in nature. An alkaline detergent will neutralize and remove such soils. This is often why so called "smelly" laundry still has a whiff about it when done with only liquid detergents.

Notice to a one almost every single major laundry detergent maker; P&G, Unilever, Henkel, etc... all offer some type of "booster". These are usually nothing more than oxygen bleach and often one or two alkaline substances such as washing soda. In essence putting back what was gotten rid of by choosing a liquid detergent in the first place. You find this and or the various pods that have a liquid and powder kept in separate sections until used.

For years laundries achieved rather great results using nothing more than soap andsodium metasilicate

 

[grwasher_expert]

I remember american-type compact powders were sold in Greece too in late '80s-early '90s.In late '90s all companies abandoned compact powder development and production and returned to normal powders,and they started developing compact liquids.Until today,liquids become more and more compact and improved while powders remain the same.Why don't they care about powders?

 

[dixan]

Today in Europe there are only a few brands that have compact powders: Persil megaperls by Henkel, Ariel compact by P&G and supermarket own brands by Dalli Werke, Thurn and McBride/Chemolux (Formil, Tandil, Bravil, Ja, Denkmit etc.). They are sold in virtually 2-3 countries. All of them have great bleaching system, but are granulated with zeolites so they contain huge amounts of them. For whites they are OK, but for colous - not al all. In fact I wouldn't use powder with such high zeolite content all the time even for whites. Yes, the bleaching system is fantastic, but zeilites are insoluble plus they increase the friction between the fabrics which leads to rapid wear. That's why compact powders usually contain very active cellulase enzyme - to cover the negative effects from the zeolites. The manufacturers must reformulate soon.

Maybe you've noticed that most of the powders shank. For example Dixan's dose was 80 g/135 ml and now it's 65 g/115 ml (in Bulgaria Persil's dose was 100 g/142 ml, now it's 70 g/108 ml), Skip's was 80 g/135 ml, now 70 g/110 ml. This is not true compacting, because they don't change the bulk density, just reduce the dose by removing part of the heavy inactive ingredients.

 

[grwasher_expert]

Persil megaperls is sold only in Germany,USA and maybe 2-3 more countries.Do you have them in Bulgaria too?The dosaging maybe has been reduced,but in the last 15 years we never had a really compact powder,like the american ones.We used to have before 20-25 years,but they quickly disappeared.I don't know if they were a failure or they abandoned them because of bad manufacturing cost/selling price ratio.
Below I've uploaded a photo of a 1991 Ariel and a today's Ariel for comparison

 

[dixan]

They discontinued them because of the high manufacturing cost and because most of the customers didn't like them: they thought the small dose was not enough and tended to use more than recommended.

 

[grwasher_expert]

So,they were discontinued because of the stupidity of the people doing lanudry.They used the same doses as they were used to with ordinary powders,so they ran out of powder too soon.

 

[dixan]

Yes, that's what I meant, but the word "stupidity" is pretty strong. People are used to something; when you offer something new you have to convince them in it's qualities.

 

[liamy1]

Compact powders

The UK lost their compact powders quickly too (Ariel Ultra, Persil Micro etc).

Was just said they didn't prove very popular with consumers.

Also, not long after compacts came about, we got the powder tablets (which actually proved very popular here). Then liquid capsules came a few years later.

 

[paulc]

Modern "big box" powders in the U.K. Are actually more concentrated than a lot of the "compact" powders of the1990's. Manufacturers have increased the concentration gradually over the years. I think the compact powders were too big of a leap for a lot of consumers who didn't think 100ml of compact powder would wash as well as 200 to 400ml of the traditional powders.

 

[liamy1]

Compact powders

Paulc makes a good point, products have been gradually getting more concentrated.

When Ariel/Daz etc Ultra was around, the 2.0kg box size would get you 22 washes. The current 22 wash box from P&G is now only 2.4kg - so they're now not far off what they were anyway.

In agreement, back in the early 90s, the market was just not ready for them, but now, with ever increasing focus on being envinromentally friendly and products becoming increasing concentrated - I think they're ready now.

Suppose the only reason why there hasn't been any changes/pushes on powder is because PG and Unilever would prefere everyone to use liquid and capsules.