Positive news about gay marriage

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

"A You need to lighten up, and not take everything that is said so seriously."

No, actually, I don't. As a clued-in respondent above noted, if it weren't Christians that were being bashed, you'd be all over yourself with righteous indignation.

"Don't you even begin to tell me about sensitivity."

I don't. There are enough walking open wounds and entitlement mentalities around to last several lifetimes. I'm simply asking that you stop and consider that pushing one's own atheist agenda, when you preside over an internet community, can be hurtful and divisive, and cause gays of faith to question whether or not they are even welcome. This seems to be controversial to a few, but it's really not...it's simply common sense, and good manners.

"That is part of who we all are..."

Uh, Robert? No, it is NOT, so don't speak for the entire gay community.

I hate the fact that, of all the images of the upcoming festivities in your own city, you chose to post that image, one that feeds into the most negative stereotypes of shallowness, superficiality, rent boys selling their desperate asses to rapacious entrepreneurs who really don't give a damn, and the very "NAMBLA" exploitative mentality that feeds our community's real enemies and holds us back, negating the very real gains that people like me fought for and won.

It's not even on behalf of one of the usual fashion houses, where you can argue an artistic defense. A BAR, sponsoring ads
featuring KIDS, probably seven years shy of being able to legally drink there.

As I've remarked repeatedly over the past eleven years, when "Pride" festivities began to be more about sleazy themes, the marketing of planned decadence, and hypocritical, reactionary
images, could someone please remind me what part of this we should all claim to be "proud" of?

If the world were to end tomorrow, would this be the gay community's crowning achievement, our contribution to society?

No, Robert, this is your personal trip, and if it works for you, go for it. Just don't demand universal acceptance of it, and blame religious people of all stripes, conservatives, or any of the other usual, tired scapegoats, when it's precisely the elements you endorse that are holding us back in the eyes of the mainstream, because they all vote too.
 
"I have to restate some basic facts here...."

No, Jeff, you're simply repeating your own opinion, as absolute fact, and then carrying on with the same old 3500-year-old canard, which is useless for the purpose of actually moving ahead and resolving a current controversy, in order to push a side agenda and sow discord.

I haven't seen one person of faith prosyletize here.

Maybe this is because we actually understand the concept of seperation of church and state, and you need them to be inextricably linked in order to plead your religiously-based case?
 
JeffG

Just a note. The Christian church is just slightly over 2000 years old, not 3500 years. If you went back 3500 years your would be in Roman times for the western world.

Keven is right, many straight people, who claim to be christian, would see us put to death if they could. We must stand up for our rights.

I have also observed that while people of faiths other than christian may also take a stand against homosexuals they do not take to the streets in huge public displays to protest against us. Maybe I missed it if it happened but I have never seen a large group of jewish people standing in the streets protesting against us or calling for legislation against us.

I for one will not accept the way things used to be. I well know the claims that America is a nation founded on christian values. Well it's damn well past the time that America changed some of theose so called values.

While I love my southern home and many things about it I have had to learn survival skills that are just wrong to have had to live by. I am openly gay and have paid a high price for it.

Jon is right. "The Church" -any church for that matter- should not dictate law. For any who spout the argument that America is a christian nation I will also point out that the founders of this nation made a definate separation of church and state. I look forward to the day gay rights reach the shore to shore in this country.
 
Who was it that fed the Christians to the lions?? That part of history is a little foggy to me. Perhaps there are some hungry lions somewhere?
 
2-cents from the front lines

I think it is important to never judge any group by the example of a few. So far here in California there have been few protesters, but as the Orange County Register reported in today's paper "those few go to any ends to get their message heard" including shouting through marriage ceremonies and spitting on couples. These protesters are hardly "Christian" and do not follow the principles of Christian religion. I cannot believe that they claim to be privy to how God thinks and who God loves and hates on this planet.

On the other hand, I hear Christian people who do not personally believe in same sex marriage say that it does not affect them and in this country we should have the freedom to pursue happiness as each individual sees fit.

The evil people making noise in public while hiding behind a "Christian" banner should be ignored and not held up as poster children of that religion. A good example are the members (about 20 total I think) of the Westboro Baptist Church who traveled to California to be on TV this week. Fred Phelps and his cult have been protetsing gay events and military funerals for years and are the most hateful people you may ever encounter in this country. His son now lives in Orange County and I read an interview about his life at home with dad. He and several siblings escaped and never looked back. According to this son, Phelps raised his kids as "followers" (most of the church are family members) exposed to extreme mental and physical abuse. County officials tried to intervene several times, but were unsuccessful. The son said the followers of Phelps are damaged and brainwashed. Hardly a happy Christian family. I feel sorry for them.

It was best summed up in a radio interview I heard this week. When a just-married woman was asked to comment on the protesters, she responded something to the effect "today is a day of joy and love, and I am not going to ruin that by commenting and going to their dark place."

I liked the term another member coined, "Christianist," that separates these misguided folks who want to run the government and everyone else's lives by their religious beliefs (can we say Pat Roberston?) from folks who try to live their lives by the teachings of "love one another as yourself," and "do not judge lest you be judged."

As for the protesters who tell me to read a bible, I say "I have and it says that "eating shrimp is an abomination unto the Lord." So why aren't these zealots shouting and spitting on people trying to have dinner at the Red Lobster??!!

Bottom line, we all must respect each other.
 
The Romans

put christians in an arena with hungry lions for entertainment before they converted to the christian religion.

While people like to talk about the "decline" or the "fall" of Rome, no such thing really happened. Although Rome underwent several shocks in the fourth and fifth centuries, some of them violent with a transfer of the imperiate to non-Romans, Rome really did remain in existence. It's impossible to say when the history of Rome ends and when the medieval period begins exactly. But the empire really does end, for all practical purposes, with the restructuring of the empire by Diocletian.

Diocletian (284-305) came to the throne after a century of disorganization, internal dissent, economic collapse, and foreign invasions. A tough and practical soldier he had one ambition: to retire from the imperiate alive. And he managed to do it (an exceptional feat). To stem the descent into chaos, he decided that the Empire was too large to be adminstered by a central authority, so he divided it in half. The western half would be ruled by a colleague, Maximian, and the seat of government would be Rome; the eastern half would be ruled by Diocletian, and the seat of government was in Nicomedia. Maximian recognized Diocletian as "Augustus," or the senior ruler of the Roman emperor. Beneath these two were appointed to each two officials, called caesars, not only to help manage the administration, but to assume their respective empires on the death of the emperor. In this way, the succession was always guaranteed and the successors had already spent much of their career adminstering the empire. This would prevent both the possibility of the ambitious seizing of the imperiate by provincial generals and would prevent incompetents from assuming control of the Empire.

This was a brilliant strategy and, with other innovations, stabilized the Empire. Diocletian was the first emperor to manifestly break with Roman tradition. He shifted the seat of power to the east, in Nicomedia in Turkey. He also adopted eastern ideas of monarchy; he no longer called himself princeps or even imperator , but dominus , or "Lord." He took a crown and wore royal clothing; he demanded and got out and out worship by his subjects.

In 305, Diocletian retired to a farm to raise cabbages; he forced Maxmian also to retire. So the imperiate passed without fuss to their two caesars. This brilliant system, so promising in its inception, fell apart immediately as the two emperors began feuding. Within a year, the son of one of the original caesars gained the throne: Constantine (306-337). Like Diocletian, he ruled only half of the Roman Empire, the western half. But in 324, he abandoned the system and ruled over a single, united empire. However, he shifted the seat of government east to his own city in Turkey, Constantinople.

Constantine was like Diocletian in his affection for eastern ways of life and eastern views of monarchy. He took on himself all the trappings of an eastern king, as Diocletian had done, and declared the imperiate to be hereditary. After eight hundred years without a monarch, Rome had finally returned back to monarchy. Constantine, however, is one of the most noted rulers in Rome for he was the first emperor to convert to Christianity. Although he didn't make Christianity a state religion, his conversion provoked a wild proliferation of the faith, particularly in the eastern empire. Constantine, however, never really became a Christian ruler. He retained all the trappings of power including the demand that he be venerated as a god, as Diocletian had done.

Constantine, however, had several problems with his new faith. The first was that there was no established doctrine. In fact, there were as many forms of Christianity as there were communities of Christians. The second was more pressing, for foundational Christianity was manifestly anti-political. Its founder, Jesus of Nazareth, consistently condemned worldly authority and insisted that the Christian life is a non-worldly, individualistic, non-political life. As a result, the foundational Christian texts are not only anti-Roman (for Judaea was part of the Roman Empire during the life of Jesus of Nazareth), but consistently dismissive of human, worldly authority. If Christianity were going to work as a religion in a state ruled by a monarch that demanded worship and absolute authority, it would have to be changed. To this end, Constantine convened a group of Christian bishops at Nicea in 325; there, the basic orthodoxy of Christianity was instantiated in what came to be called the Nicene creed, the basic statement of belief for orthodox Christianity. Constantine accomplished more, however, for the Nicene council also ratified his own power and Christianity would begin the long struggle, lasting to this day, between the anti-political ideas of Jesus of Nazareth and the Christianity that is compromised to allow for human authority and power.

When Constantine died, he divided the Empire between his three sons who, as you might expect, began fighting one another over complete control of the Empire. His sons all adopted Christianity as well, but the emperor, Julian the Apostate (361-363), opposed the religion and tried to undo it by dismissing all the Christians from the government. He was a little too late and reigned a little too briefly, though, to have any real effect. The government of Rome during the fourth century essentially traces out a history of dynastic squabbles and constant internal fractiousness; it wasn't until the end of the century, in the rule of Theodosius (379-395), that Rome was again united under a single emperor. Theodosius made his mark in history by declaring Christianity the state religion of Rome; he made all pagan religions illegal. The Christian Roman state had entered the stage; however, history was about to dramatically change the character of Rome. In 410, the Visigoths, a Germanic tribe that had migrated into northern Italy under the pressure of migrations of the Huns, captured and sacked Rome. From 451 to 453, Rome was overrun by the Hunnish leader, Attila, and finally, in 455, the Vandals, another Germanic tribe, conquered Rome. Finally, in 476, Odoacer deposed the Roman emperor and made himself emperor. Power had passed from the Romans to the barbarians war-chiefs; the Middle Ages had begun. Rome now passed to two heirs: Europe in the west and, to the east, the Byzantines, who carried on the government structure, the social structure, the art and the thought of classical Rome and Greece.

There are always hungry lions Andrew....and someone ready to feed them.
 
Robert could you please zap me to the high desert area near, Palm Springs with two machines and then on to London for two weeks? Thanks in advance, frntl
Of course Darrel, but you'll have to tell me about this "high desert area near Palm Springs" so I know where to Zap you. I'm only familiar with the Warm Springs Area of Palm Springs, which I totally love LOL ***watches oxy's face cringe cause its so "heathen" gay****. Also would you like a Unimatic and Lady Kenmore, or maybe a Filter-Flo GE and a Speed Queen???? Then off to London with you ***begins to raise arms***.

Oxy please your posts are clearly about "ssshhhhhh keep quiet everyone, don't let the good decent straight christian people see us or at least trick them into seeing that see we are just like them". That is total BS.

if it weren't Christians that were being bashed, you'd be all over yourself with righteous indignation.
That couldn't be further from the truth, my opinion on religion covers all religions, to me they are all the same. I respect everyone's right to their beliefs, and would never dream of trying to change anyone's minds about their beliefs, but in turn I demand the same respect about me being gay as well as my lack of belief.

"That is part of who we all are..." Uh, Robert? No, it is NOT, so don't speak for the entire gay community.
I said it is PART of who we are, not ALL of who were are. And I have some bad news for you Oxy, oh yes it certainly is part of who you are whether you like it or not. As a gay person, you are gonna have to accept this diversity within our own community.

I'm simply asking that you stop and consider that pushing one's own atheist agenda, when you preside over an internet community, can be hurtful and divisive, and cause gays of faith to question whether or not they are even welcome.
"Atheist Agenda" lol, whatever, if anyone has an agenda here its you. I've got four words for you Oxy: "OVER MY DEAD BODY" will I keep quiet because I welcome gay people of faith here just like everyone else. While yes I'm am a total Atheist, have been for almost 30 years now and proud of my lack of belief. But just because I run this website does not in any way mean that I don't have the right to voice my opinion just because my simple lack of belief might offend some religious member. There you go again with your "ssshhhhh keep quiet you might offend someone bullshit again" GET OVER IT, you've come to the wrong place if you want a webmaster like that. Everyone here knows that I am totally welcoming to everyone, and I mean everyone, even to someone like you who is clearly only here to stir the pot.

I hate the fact that, of all the images of the upcoming festivities in your own city, you chose to post that image, one that feeds into the most negative stereotypes of shallowness, superficiality, rent boys selling their desperate asses to rapacious entrepreneurs who really don't give a damn, and the very "NAMBLA" exploitative mentality that feeds our community's real enemies and holds us back, negating the very real gains that people like me fought for and won.
Wow listen to that hatred pouring out of you about people in our own community, what a shame. "rent boys selling their desperate asses" what a load of crap, you don't know a thing about any of those people. I think that poster is cool, I think its all in fun and take it for what its worth, which isn't much, but I'm none the less thrilled its hanging there. As you can see from many of the comments people have posted here WE WILL NO LONGER LIVE OUR LIVES BEING CAREFUL NOT TO OFFEND OTHERS BY HIDING OUR CULTURE OR TRUE SELVES. EVER AGAIN. I don't care if we are feeding our real enemies with ammo, we are who we are period, they are the ones with the problem and they are gonna have to get over it.

A BAR, sponsoring ads featuring KIDS, probably seven years shy of being able to legally drink there. Ummm, you're crazy, that would make them 15 years old and then that would be a BIG problem. Those "KIDS" as you call them are all at least 21 and are of the drinking age, I've seen at least one of them out drinking. They have every right to be in that poster, believe me they are not the "victims" you are making them out to be. I bet they would be offended to hear you say that.

that are holding us back in the eyes of the mainstream, because they all vote too.
I'm sorry but for the last 1950 years we said nothing, we hid in closets, we didn't fight back and we we're treated like crap from everyone. We now are out, proud and in everyone's face. And look what is happening right before our very eyes, marriage in two states and counting. I say girls, forge forward, 'cause what ever we've done over the last 50 years, its working, slowly but surely!

As I've remarked repeatedly over the past eleven years, when "Pride" festivities began to be more about sleazy themes, the marketing of planned decadence, and hypocritical, reactionary images, could someone please remind me what part of this we should all claim to be "proud" of?
Certainly, we should be proud of all this and lots more and unlike you most of us are proud of all of it! Its unfortunate but sometimes our own worst enemies come from within.
 
"As a gay person, you are gonna have to accept this diversity within our own community."

Uh, not really. The backlash has already started.

And we are capable of thinking for ourselves, making our own ethical choices, and wielding our own influence from within, thank you very much!

"Atheist Agenda" lol, whatever, if anyone has an agenda here its you."

You mean respect, and freedom from elitist drones? Yep, that would be me! Deal with it, or boot my ass.

"...I welcome gay people of faith here just like everyone else. "

How? By reminding them that they are morons for believing what they do? Please...you have zero respect, and you can't even admit that you made a mistake, IMHO.

"Everyone here knows that I am totally welcoming to everyone,"

Without going into detail regarding past dressings-down, emails and the like, whenever your nose got out of joint, I would not call your attitude toward me "welcoming", not by a long shot.

I cannot recall one civil response, even when you were quietly proven wrong later on, so let's not bullshit each other.

I have strong opinions, and I enjoy dialogue. I'm not a fan of vacant, elitist shits and giggles, I believe there are individuals of substance and worth here, and I've received emails that clearly back up that there are those who actually appreciate diverse opinions, rather than paying homage to the concept.

"Wow listen to that hatred pouring out of you about people in our own community, what a shame."

Robert? That's not hatred, it's legitimate self-criticism. I'm sorry you can't appreciate the difference.

Nobody's "stirring the pot" here. You're representing what appears to be a majority opinion, and mine differs somewhat.

"I think that poster is cool, I think its all in fun and take it for what its worth, which isn't much, but I'm none the less thrilled its hanging there."

I'm sure Stephanie Miller would too.

I am not Stephanie Miller. GET OVER IT. If I think it's cheap, typically tacky, and not representative of the community as a whole, I WILL SAY SO, ROBERT!

"WE WILL NO LONGER LIVE OUR LIVES BEING CAREFUL NOT TO OFFEND OTHERS BY HIDING OUR CULTURE OR TRUE SELVES."

Except that's not "culture". It's not even really a part of gay culture. It's the lowest common denominator, and the mentality behind it does damage. The next time you come to New York, come with me to the food distribution center I volunteer at. I'll introduce you to some of the victims that get tossed away, after you ogle.

"Ummm, you're crazy, that would make them 15 years old and then that would be a BIG problem..."

And the fact that you at least recognize that is a good thing.

"Those "KIDS" as you call them are all at least 21 and are of the drinking age,"

ROFLMAO!!! Riiiiight, nice try!

"I've seen at least one of them out drinking...."

And we ALL know that there are NEVER underaged drinkers in gay bars, LOL!!

"I bet they would be offended to hear you say that."

Of course they would! I'm cutting into their income stream, no pun intended, LOL!

Are you kidding me, man?

"I'm sorry but for the last 1950 years we said nothing, we hid in closets, we didn't fight back and we we're treated like crap from everyone."

Oh? You don't seem particularly oppressed. Can you name ONE instance, in which you've been discriminated against or been openly victimized in a hate crime, in which counter-discrimination against all religious PEOPLE (not the institutions) can be fairly scapegoated?

"And look what is happening right before our very eyes, marriage in two states and counting. I say girls, forge forward, 'cause what ever we've done over the last 50 years, its working, slowly but surely!"

The problem is, is wasn't people like you who can fairly claim to have done anything concrete in achieving this milestone.

IMHO, you're just riding the coattails and claiming entitlement and privilege to a right you never earned.

Sorry, but that's my opinion.
 
"Bottom line, we all must respect each other."

Thank you, golittlesport.

Now, will this actually happen.

Probably not, not as long as there are those out there like me, that refuse to be mastered.
 
AMEN Robert!!! <:

It is always the ones that are so ashamed of who they are that are so judgemental of everyone elses actions.
 
I'd like to request that anyone who has any problem with me with non-marriage equality issues, please EMAIL.

Many worthwhile questions have been raised here. I responded in the thread, simply because that's the way I was addressed.

It's ridiculous to ruin a perfectly good thread because of a need to "Gotcha!", or unresolved personal vendettas that have no meaning to anyone else.

Thanks!
 
This is pointless now that you've gone down to the level of name calling, I'm not going to respond to you anymore, because it will just go back and forth. I completely disagree with you and the more I read the more I see that you and I will never agree. You make all these claims/assumptions about who I am and what I've done in my life and you don't know a thing about me, except for what I've posted here on this website. I'm so glad to know that you know me so well.

I only have one word of warning for you, don't ever tell me what I should or should not say/post on my own site.

"Manners", uh huh. ***Introduces the pot to the kettle****
 
I haven't called anyone any names, Robert.

It's just a little easier to get to the heart of the matter when you don't feel obligated to play duck-and-weave, that's all.

The days of me weighing every word, every nuance, to accommodate the whims and fancies of some mercurial control queen are hereby OVER, make no mistake about it.

So, if you're suddenly feeling the need to purge your almighty board of any of the "bitters", those who "cling" to outdated concepts-like basic common sense and SOME code of moral brand ethical decency, or if you don't feel like having your pristine, fall-in-line playground, the time to ask me to leave is NOW.

Because this month is just as much of a "time of liberation" for me as anyone else's in the community.

Take me as I am, or tell me to take a walk. Your choice.
 
Gee

Scott, that sounds like some form of foreplay LOL

"Take me as I am or tell me to walk" Sounds like a great title for a country western song!

...ducks for cover...
 
elitist drones / mercurial control queen

those who "cling" to outdated concepts-like basic common sense and SOME code of moral brand ethical decency

Since its quite obvious we have none of that around here...

I choose, ***ummmm thinking thinking thinking*** TAKE A WALK
 
Greg, portions of the Pentateuch date back to 1500BC or before, and these written laws were based on older traditions that were transmitted verbally. Leviticus, where we find the directive to kill homosexuals (and 20 other groups of people) was composed ~500BC but is based in Mosaic Law, which again dates to at least 1500BC and probably earlier.
 

Similar threads

J
Congrats to Connecticut!
Replies
7
Views
8
a440
A

Latest posts

Back
Top