Powder - beats liquid?

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MrX

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Just having a look at Unilever Persil (UK & Ireland) online stain solver.

almost without exception, it suggests Persil Biological Washing powder - i.e. the 'traditional format' universal powder.

Click on any stain and you'll see what I mean.

On a few occasions it will pop up tablets, but I suspect that's only for variety :D

Seems to prove the suspicion that the liquids and liquitabs aren't really all that good.

http://www.persil.co.uk/stainsolver.aspx
 
My experience, and just my

experience says that it depends.

For things like heavy garden soils, powder does work better.

For oil based stains, it has been my experience, that liquids work better.

Plus, there is the fact that liquid goes into solution faster than powder.

I do use powder detergent, but I think a wise home launderER has both.

Again, just what I've seen.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
I suspect that it's quite a different story for toploaders as liquid would dissolve much more effectively. Where as in a European front loader, powder is dispensed by spraying it with water in the dispenser drawer, so it's well mixed with water before it even hits the tub at all.

Major difference is that powders can be formulated with oxygen-bleaches and use more complex enzymes as they do not expire / disappear in powder where as they need to be preserved and stabelised in a liquid.

Liquids might come in handy for pretreating, but with TOL powders you don't pretreat anything anyway.
 
Very interesting

I have thought about this subject from time to time. My mother's opinion (hardly an expert on homemaking mind you) is that powdered detergent does not dissolve as thoroughly as liquid and that it's harder to rinse out. So she uses liquid and suggested I do as well.

I used to use Gain powder but switched to Gain liquid. I can't really see all that difference in cleaning ability; and the only reason I chose Gain (the white trash choice in laundry detergent) is because I just love its scent.

The only big major discovery I have made of late is with chlorine bleach. I have totally sworn off the stuff in terms of laundry, and my whites have never looked better. There's a thread about that elsewhere.

oh, of course I have also talked about my favorite laundry detergent of all, PRIDE from the Philippines. If it ever hits U.S. shelves I will definitely be switching to powder!
 
Hmm - I would find some of the most difficult to rinse-out detergents over here are liquids!

Unilever Persil Powders rinse out very easily.
P&G's Ariel & Daz are a little more difficult.

Unilever's older Persil LiquiGel was a nightmare, even in a Miele doing 5 high level rinses there would still be suds left!!

Their new Persil S&M liquid is a VAST improvement in terms of rinsing performance.

I also find powders more convenient though as you can easily measure an accurate dose, you can use the machine's delay start i.e. it will automatically dispense the powder when the machine starts from the dispensor drawer, where as with a liquid that's tricky

Same for prewash, with powder you just fill Compartment I and II and the machine dispenses the powder automatically for each part of the wash.

And of course, you can accurately control the dose!
 
TL powders?

I can see how top loaders might not really mix the powder through the water properly though as it might just sit at the bottom of the tub if it hadn't been mixed through.

When I used one in the US, I would always add the detergent to the flowing stream of water as the machine was filling, then start adding clothes as I found if i threw it on top of the load it would cause marks.

Euro machines basically have a 2 compartment drawer, the machine fills by spraying water through this through nozzles which look very much like a shower head.
The powder's mixed, diluted and arrives in the drum already pre-activated.
 
If I recall correctly, a year or two ago somebody posted the results of a European (British?) test. It found that liquids generally did not clean as well as powders, and that some liquids were no better than plain water.

As for dissolving completely, yes, best to use warm to hot water with most powders. Tide Coldwater powder supposedly dissolves just fine in cold water. Haven't been able to find it here, just the liquid, which is extremely sudsy. For the few loads I wash in cold, I use just about any liquid, usually the Sears HE liquid.

Most powders have sodium carbonate which forms a precipitate with hard water, so in that sense yes, the stuff may not rinse out as well as a liquid, which has instead sodium citrate which is less likely to form a precipitate. As far as I know there's no problem putting an oxygen bleach in a liquid, since sodium perborate is relatively stable at room temps. But I might be misinterpreting the "color safe bleach" on some liquid labels as being oxygen bleach.

There's also the report - as yet unsubstantiated - that sodium carbonate and phosphates can cling to fabric fibers and not get rinsed away, leaving a harsh feel to the fabrics. I haven't yet been able to find any references for that report, but empirically I have noticed that items like bath towels washed in a liquid detergent tend to be softer than those washed in a powder.
 
In theory liquids are supposed to better suit oil based stains/soils, while powders for clay and "dirt" based soils.

Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly acidic, and today at least MOL and TOL varities have various enzymes to aid cleaning performance. Powders can be neutral to slighly basic to very alkaline, which tends to make them clean heavy soils better as the high pH level causes textile fibers to swell and therefore release dirt/soils easily. Problem is that laundering certian items too often with too harsh detergent with hard water can leave items feeling scratchy. This is one of the reasons commercial laundries would used sours in the final rinse; to bring down the pH level and remove excess sodium bicarbonate (by product of sodium carbonate), thus making laundry more comfortable to wear/use.

Today's TOL powders such as Tide work great on all soils and probably are more gentle than the heavy baking soda/washing soda laden Arm&Hammer types. But also consider few today work on farms or for that matter get their laundry that soiled as say a generation or so ago. Aside from children who just naturally attract dirt *LOL*, most of us leave for work and come home in items that are quite clean except for the odd stain (from lunch or whatever), and perhaps some body odour/soils. Indeed many of us change clothing today several times, putting almost clean items into the wash. Therefore detergents do not have to cope with washing dirt that resembles farmers overalls during hog boiling season; but rather lightly soiled laundry as described above.
 
Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly

Sorry, but that didn't sound quite right. So I got out my handy water test strips and found the following liquids:

Detergent pH Total Alkalinity CaCO3

Sears HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Method HE 8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Tide HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Sfwy HE free >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Wisk HE >8.4 >240 ppm 250 ppm

Ecos 7.2 180 ppm 250 ppm

Frsh Brz 7.2 180 ppm 250 ppm

As you can see, all the major brands are quite alkaline, both in terms of pH and total alkalinity. Ecos and Fresh Breeze were exceptions, with neutral pH and lower total alkalinity. Values of >8.4 read off scale on the test strips, as did values of total alkalinity of >240 ppm. Procedure was to pour a few drops (as little as possible) of the liquid detergent into a coffee cup, fill about 1/2 way with cold tap water, stirred not shaken, and then test.
 
This was an interesting test to run. Based on these results, I'd probably use Ecos or Fresh Breeze to launder delicate items such as woolens or stuff with leather trim. Perhaps also items with latex backing, like throw rugs. Because these are regular sudsing detergents, they don't clean all that well in a front loader, since the amount must be drastically reduced to control sudsing. Both these detergents claim to contain natural soap, but I wonder if that's just plant based surfactant. Of the "synthetic" liquids, Method HE was slightly less alkaline, with its test color spot on 8.4 (the ones listed as >8.4 had colors far more intensely red than 8.4 would indicate).

Unfortunately I don't have any test strips for values above 8.4. I probably have some liquid test kits for higher pH values, but anything above pH 8 is alkaline anyway.
 
PS-I don't work on a farm. However I do work in a machine shop and those work clothes can get rather dirty. Also, working in the yard/garden gets those work clothes dirty. And lately I've been clearing out the clutter in the garages and workshop, and all the dust certainly gets clothes quite smudged as well.

Someone whose job is in an office, who lives in an apartment, probably won't get their clothes dirty enough to require a powder. But in most cases I find liquids come up wanting for getting the dirt out.
 
I use Daz liquid (powders vs liquids debate)

I've been using Daz liquid and i think it removes stains very well, even muddy stains, chocolate, and tomato stains go away very easily with warm wash at 40/50 degrees :)

i just pour a bit of liquid on the stain and then rub it in, and then let the machine do its thing and voila, no stains and clean clothes :) I like the bluey whiteness effect you get from daz liquid, it smells good too :)

i think its just a personal preferance what you prefer to use, never thought tablets cleaned very well for some reason, apart from persil gel tablets/surf tablets.

I have alot of coloured clothes, and i think i'd rather like to use liquid as powder seems quite abrasive on the clothes
 
Liquid detergents for the most part are neutral or slightly

I also read this statement quite a few times and don`t agree with it at all.
True is that powders are generally more alkaline than liquids, but heavy duty liquids like Persil (Henkel) or Ariel still are on the alkaline side greater than PH 7.
The only liquid detergent apart from fabric softeners that I could find on the acidic side is Perwoll liquid, a light duty detergent just for delicates and silk and wool. It`t powdered counterpart is to my surprise slightly alkaline.
If you count fabric softeners, (which are acidic), as liquid detergents your statement makes sense of course.
 
To stay on the subject, I have the impression that powders have a greater spectrum of soils they can handle, but I like to have liquids at hand as well because they seem to be easier on fabrics and they are good for some oily stains and short cycles for example.

Our German consumer magazine always rates powders higher than liquids. That is because powders, even with oxygen bleach are generally better for the enviroment in their opinion.
At removing visible spots like food stains, liquids have become better and better and almost equal with powders.
But powders seem to get better rid of the invisible dirt like dead skin cells and body grease, which causes greying and smelly clothes by and by.
 
Problem with powders, or at least much of the problem steams from those bans on phosphates. It takes several chemicals to equal the cleaning/water softening powers of STPP, hence all that baking soda, washing soda, Zeolites, and god only knows what else clogs up those boxes of powders.

Those heavy canisters of Ecolab commercial detergent in my stash contain mainly STPP,surfactant and washing soda, and am here to tell you that stuff can CLEAN. Even use it to wash the filters from my electronic air cleaner, window screens, air conditioner filters and anything else with heavy dirt, including greasy soils and the results are wonderful. Dirt just lifts off and more importantly stays suspended in the water.

As for carbonate and phosphate buildup, many laundry liquids, especially those sold to clean fine laundry/linens make a big deal that their products do not leave behind salts that can build up and cause damage.
 
It takes several chemicals to equal the cleaning/water soft

Yaaaay. Let's hear it for STPP yet again.

Some might argue that even those multiple chemicals never really do equal STPP in all its complex functions.

Technically speaking, sodium citrate, the major builder ingredient of most laundry liquids, is a salt. And as I've discovered, it can precipitate out (witness the crusty bits rattling around in an old jug of Sears HE liquid). EDTA is probably a better alternative, but I suspect it's quite a bit more costly than sodium citrate. (EDTA=Ethylene diamine tetraacetate, which unlike citric acid doesn't grow on trees).
 
Launderess I think you`re right that much of the problems came with the ban of STPP.
I suspect some BOL American powders just don`t contain any Zeolites and so on and we all know Sodium Carbonate used by itself forms precipitates.
But a good powder with a whole coctail of chemicals to substitute STPP usually beats any liquid (builder wise) which are always formulated without those very effective Zeolites.
Of course liquid Ecolab or any product with phosphates is even better than any phosphorous free powder.
 
Launderess

You are so right about a lot of people not having to deal with heavily soiled laundry. Unless one has an occupation such as an auto/jet mechanic, janitor, etc., or labors in any other field where work clothes get really dirty, there's usually no need for a lot of highly specialized laundry products. Personally, I prefer powder detergent. It works fine for me, but then again, I don't really have "tough laundry" problems.
 
I seriously doubt that a powder like Persil or Persil colour is particularly damaging to fabrics, in fact, I find it quite gentle and all of my clothes come out nice, soft and fluffy :)

I have noticed no damage to fabrics, no stiff fabrics, no precipitates, no problems generally at all and it rinses out very easily and smells nice and mild.

If I add a softener, like Comfort pure, I get even softer results again.

It's not that my clothes are filthy dirty when they go into the machine, far from it but I do have some stains to cope with that I found many of the liquids failed to perform as well on.

You don't have to be a mechanic or, living on a farm to get these either.

Problems I face regularly:
1) Tomato sauce stains - from pasta sauces etc
2) Stains from highly staining indian food
3) Tea and coffee stains
4) Sports gear - grass stains, mud etc
5) Oil (cooking splashes mostly olive oil) or salad dressings
6) Marks on collars of shirts

Then if you add things like tea towels and table cloths -
Pretty much any food stain you can think of!

Unilever Persil (including the colour version) will remove all of those, without any quibble on a normal wash. No pre-treating, no messing around. Just put clothes into the wash, half scoop of Persil and and no risk of any problems.
Ariel performs equally well and I'm sure Henkel Persil, Le Chat etc is outstanding too.

If a detergent can't handle the above without any fuss, I really don't see the point in it.

I find in general with liquids that they are just mediocre performers. I have found them particular poor at dealing with oily stains from things like salad dressing / accidental splashes.

Also, the powders, both Ariel and Persil are vastly better performers in QuickWash programmes - there's no issue with them not being dissolved even in that short a time.

The only advantage I could see for liquids in the US is the fact that some people like to wash in cold water which may make powders tougher to dissolve up fully.

Once the water's 30C + it seems to work fine for the TOL brands on this side of the atlantic anyway!
 
Maybe I misread the sentence about detergents settling to the bottom of the tub on an agitator washer and not being mixed into the water. About the only way that happens is with the newer machines that have a separately powered drain pump where the liquid detergent, if added before the tub has at least some water and the load of laundry, will pool in the sump and there is nothing to pump it back into the wash water like a toploader such as a Maytag or WP direct drive where the pump runs backwards during agitation so there is a stream of aerated water being forced upward into the wash solution. Older top loaders with recirculating filters would not let this happen, but then there were not as many liquid detergents then. Many people who have not used agitator washers do not appreciate the water power generated by the fins of a good agitator. They push water through the clothes and get the detergent dissolved & mixed very well.
 
Powder or Liquid

For our use I have found that powders out clean the liquid products by a wide margin. I have tried most of the liquid products and not found any that out clean powder on heavy soil loads.. While I do have different soiling problems to deal with than most of you.. Not that much Grease or oil (except from dietary) but heavy blood and untidy nursing home type linen.. Any one with older persons they must care for know this can be quite a major problem. I have found that the Amway(quixtar) products and Tide with bleach powders do a very good job. as home products are used.. We do however use mostly Ecolab powder products and most all the work comes very clean at 120 to 125 with no problems. at all.. Moritcan work is the worst we have and a double wash in Tide With Bleach or Amway all ways gets those loads clean.. and Odor free. As a general rule if it does not come out with Amway or Tide With Bleach it most likey is not going to come out..

8-20-2007-15-32-10--sudsman.jpg
 
European front loaders have long had various ways of preventing detergent from ending up in the sump.

1) Recirculation pumps - JetSystem (Zanussi)
2) Ecovalves - AEG and many others.

Other machines used tricks like filling the sump first, then dispensing the detergent by filling initially using the rinse valve i.e. straight through the back of the drawer (avoiding the detergent) - then adding the detergent by switching over to flushing in the powder.
 
Hay sudsmaster

One solution, for those who are in a quandry over this eternal debate, is to use both. Personally, I favor powder and probably always will. Never knew doing laundry was so complicated(smile). I'm going to stick with this simple equation>GOOD DETERGENT+CORRECT WATER TEMPERATURE+SUFFICIENT WASHER AGITATION=CLEAN CLOTHES. LOL
 
powder - liquid - liquid - powder - soap - or what???

Well to get it all neatly in one row:
There IS a difference between powder and liquid and both have their good and not so good sides.

Powders (here all-purpose powders):
They usually contain bleach (oxygene) which no liquid does as it would fall apart in this physical condition. Also it has a more effective water softener than liquids, namely SASil or STPP, which is almost stronger in doing the softening job than phosphonates and others particulary in hot or boiling water. Negative is that SASil isn't as easy to rinse out and therefor can go on softening even the rinse-waters, and because it is a precipitating agent contrary to STPP, white residues can be found on dark coloureds especially in modern machines that rinse only with a cup full of water...
Also powders have a higher ph-value that makes them wash out dirt and grime better. For invironmental reason powders have a better energy balance as they are lighter in weight and so need less petrol for transportation whereas liquids contain about half to two thirds of their volume just water that needs to be transported, too! And water isn't ligth weighted, is it? If you wash coloureds with all-purpose powders and not with special color-powders, colours will fade by time but color-powders will still show the problem with the residues due to the SASil! Powders can be used very well as a pre-treatment on stubborn stains when a part of the amount you need for a load is mixed with a bit of water to a highly concentrated paste and applied onto the stains before putting the garments into the washer. All-purpose powders must not be used on silks or woolens due to the protease enzymes and the alkalines in them!

Liquids:
They contain a higher concentration of tensides because of the lack of bleach in it to get stains out better. On the other hand they need more water for rinsing to get the tensides washed out (Persil is a good example for that)! Also they have a lower ph-value which is better for any colours! Special liquids for delicates are even ph-neutral. But if you wash whites for a long time with liquids they will become dull and greyish! Liquids are also fine for any pre-treating on stains (except silks and woollens again, if not a special delicate detergent without protease is used!)

Soap:
Soap is very good in soft-water and soap-powders can be wonderful in such areas when containing all other ingredients of a normal detergent as well. Soap works best with STPP as a softening-agent as it does not build up any residues!
Bar-soap instead is absolutely fine for fatty and grimy stains or really dirty spots on any fabric and should be used as a pre-treatment when ever posible. For very bad dirt (working clothes) even soft-soap is absolutely fine as a pre-treatment. Soap is also very environmental friendly! Soap washed garments do not need any fabric conditioner either!

Ralf
 
Sudsman, you mention using Tide with bleach. Are you using that in a front load washer? If so, is it one of the industrial size machines or in a smaller machine? I was just wondering about the amount of foaming you have with Tide with bleach, because you also mention SA8 which is supposed to be very low sudsing. Thanks, Tom
 
My two cents...

I have to say that I think nothing can beat a good quality, biological washing powder for the toughest stains... liquids are OK for your lightly to normally soiled laundry but I've found, mainly due to the lack of bleaching agents, that they just can't perform as well on a lot of food stains like powders can.

I tend to use colour tablets myself on everything but whites, and in the years I've been using colour tablets and washing powders I've never had any issues with white marks left on the laundry. Though I daren't use standard biological powders on coloured laundry - a lot of mum's washing has been faded permanently due to her use of non bio detergents for years.

There is the argument that liquids are better on a quick wash, but most powders and tablets here have quickwash formulas and I often just use the Quick Wash on the Miele, using Ariel colour tablets or Persil colour powder with great results on normally soiled laundry.

Jon
 

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