Powder - beats liquid?

[mrboilwash]

Launderess I think you`re right that much of the problems came with the ban of STPP.
I suspect some BOL American powders just don`t contain any Zeolites and so on and we all know Sodium Carbonate used by itself forms precipitates.
But a good powder with a whole coctail of chemicals to substitute STPP usually beats any liquid (builder wise) which are always formulated without those very effective Zeolites.
Of course liquid Ecolab or any product with phosphates is even better than any phosphorous free powder.

 

[cleanfresh]

Launderess

You are so right about a lot of people not having to deal with heavily soiled laundry. Unless one has an occupation such as an auto/jet mechanic, janitor, etc., or labors in any other field where work clothes get really dirty, there's usually no need for a lot of highly specialized laundry products. Personally, I prefer powder detergent. It works fine for me, but then again, I don't really have "tough laundry" problems.

 

[MrX]

I seriously doubt that a powder like Persil or Persil colour is particularly damaging to fabrics, in fact, I find it quite gentle and all of my clothes come out nice, soft and fluffy

I have noticed no damage to fabrics, no stiff fabrics, no precipitates, no problems generally at all and it rinses out very easily and smells nice and mild.

If I add a softener, like Comfort pure, I get even softer results again.

It's not that my clothes are filthy dirty when they go into the machine, far from it but I do have some stains to cope with that I found many of the liquids failed to perform as well on.

You don't have to be a mechanic or, living on a farm to get these either.

Problems I face regularly:
1) Tomato sauce stains - from pasta sauces etc
2) Stains from highly staining indian food
3) Tea and coffee stains
4) Sports gear - grass stains, mud etc
5) Oil (cooking splashes mostly olive oil) or salad dressings
6) Marks on collars of shirts

Then if you add things like tea towels and table cloths -
Pretty much any food stain you can think of!

Unilever Persil (including the colour version) will remove all of those, without any quibble on a normal wash. No pre-treating, no messing around. Just put clothes into the wash, half scoop of Persil and and no risk of any problems.
Ariel performs equally well and I'm sure Henkel Persil, Le Chat etc is outstanding too.

If a detergent can't handle the above without any fuss, I really don't see the point in it.

I find in general with liquids that they are just mediocre performers. I have found them particular poor at dealing with oily stains from things like salad dressing / accidental splashes.

Also, the powders, both Ariel and Persil are vastly better performers in QuickWash programmes - there's no issue with them not being dissolved even in that short a time.

The only advantage I could see for liquids in the US is the fact that some people like to wash in cold water which may make powders tougher to dissolve up fully.

Once the water's 30C + it seems to work fine for the TOL brands on this side of the atlantic anyway!

 

[tomturbomatic]

Maybe I misread the sentence about detergents settling to the bottom of the tub on an agitator washer and not being mixed into the water. About the only way that happens is with the newer machines that have a separately powered drain pump where the liquid detergent, if added before the tub has at least some water and the load of laundry, will pool in the sump and there is nothing to pump it back into the wash water like a toploader such as a Maytag or WP direct drive where the pump runs backwards during agitation so there is a stream of aerated water being forced upward into the wash solution. Older top loaders with recirculating filters would not let this happen, but then there were not as many liquid detergents then. Many people who have not used agitator washers do not appreciate the water power generated by the fins of a good agitator. They push water through the clothes and get the detergent dissolved & mixed very well.

 

[sudsman]

Powder or Liquid

For our use I have found that powders out clean the liquid products by a wide margin. I have tried most of the liquid products and not found any that out clean powder on heavy soil loads.. While I do have different soiling problems to deal with than most of you.. Not that much Grease or oil (except from dietary) but heavy blood and untidy nursing home type linen.. Any one with older persons they must care for know this can be quite a major problem. I have found that the Amway(quixtar) products and Tide with bleach powders do a very good job. as home products are used.. We do however use mostly Ecolab powder products and most all the work comes very clean at 120 to 125 with no problems. at all.. Moritcan work is the worst we have and a double wash in Tide With Bleach or Amway all ways gets those loads clean.. and Odor free. As a general rule if it does not come out with Amway or Tide With Bleach it most likey is not going to come out..

 

[MrX]

European front loaders have long had various ways of preventing detergent from ending up in the sump.

1) Recirculation pumps - JetSystem (Zanussi)
2) Ecovalves - AEG and many others.

Other machines used tricks like filling the sump first, then dispensing the detergent by filling initially using the rinse valve i.e. straight through the back of the drawer (avoiding the detergent) - then adding the detergent by switching over to flushing in the powder.

 

[sudsmaster]

Hmmm....

Powder beats liquid...

Liquid beats soap...

Soap beats powder...

Rochambeau!

 

[cleanfresh]

Hay sudsmaster

One solution, for those who are in a quandry over this eternal debate, is to use both. Personally, I favor powder and probably always will. Never knew doing laundry was so complicated(smile). I'm going to stick with this simple equation>GOOD DETERGENT+CORRECT WATER TEMPERATURE+SUFFICIENT WASHER AGITATION=CLEAN CLOTHES. LOL

 

[lederstiefel1]

powder - liquid - liquid - powder - soap - or what???

Well to get it all neatly in one row:
There IS a difference between powder and liquid and both have their good and not so good sides.

Powders (here all-purpose powders):
They usually contain bleach (oxygene) which no liquid does as it would fall apart in this physical condition. Also it has a more effective water softener than liquids, namely SASil or STPP, which is almost stronger in doing the softening job than phosphonates and others particulary in hot or boiling water. Negative is that SASil isn't as easy to rinse out and therefor can go on softening even the rinse-waters, and because it is a precipitating agent contrary to STPP, white residues can be found on dark coloureds especially in modern machines that rinse only with a cup full of water...
Also powders have a higher ph-value that makes them wash out dirt and grime better. For invironmental reason powders have a better energy balance as they are lighter in weight and so need less petrol for transportation whereas liquids contain about half to two thirds of their volume just water that needs to be transported, too! And water isn't ligth weighted, is it? If you wash coloureds with all-purpose powders and not with special color-powders, colours will fade by time but color-powders will still show the problem with the residues due to the SASil! Powders can be used very well as a pre-treatment on stubborn stains when a part of the amount you need for a load is mixed with a bit of water to a highly concentrated paste and applied onto the stains before putting the garments into the washer. All-purpose powders must not be used on silks or woolens due to the protease enzymes and the alkalines in them!

Liquids:
They contain a higher concentration of tensides because of the lack of bleach in it to get stains out better. On the other hand they need more water for rinsing to get the tensides washed out (Persil is a good example for that)! Also they have a lower ph-value which is better for any colours! Special liquids for delicates are even ph-neutral. But if you wash whites for a long time with liquids they will become dull and greyish! Liquids are also fine for any pre-treating on stains (except silks and woollens again, if not a special delicate detergent without protease is used!)

Soap:
Soap is very good in soft-water and soap-powders can be wonderful in such areas when containing all other ingredients of a normal detergent as well. Soap works best with STPP as a softening-agent as it does not build up any residues!
Bar-soap instead is absolutely fine for fatty and grimy stains or really dirty spots on any fabric and should be used as a pre-treatment when ever posible. For very bad dirt (working clothes) even soft-soap is absolutely fine as a pre-treatment. Soap is also very environmental friendly! Soap washed garments do not need any fabric conditioner either!

Ralf

 

[tomturbomatic]

Sudsman, you mention using Tide with bleach. Are you using that in a front load washer? If so, is it one of the industrial size machines or in a smaller machine? I was just wondering about the amount of foaming you have with Tide with bleach, because you also mention SA8 which is supposed to be very low sudsing. Thanks, Tom

 

[lavamat_jon]

My two cents...

I have to say that I think nothing can beat a good quality, biological washing powder for the toughest stains... liquids are OK for your lightly to normally soiled laundry but I've found, mainly due to the lack of bleaching agents, that they just can't perform as well on a lot of food stains like powders can.

I tend to use colour tablets myself on everything but whites, and in the years I've been using colour tablets and washing powders I've never had any issues with white marks left on the laundry. Though I daren't use standard biological powders on coloured laundry - a lot of mum's washing has been faded permanently due to her use of non bio detergents for years.

There is the argument that liquids are better on a quick wash, but most powders and tablets here have quickwash formulas and I often just use the Quick Wash on the Miele, using Ariel colour tablets or Persil colour powder with great results on normally soiled laundry.

Jon

 

[sudsman]

TOM

I use them both in home and commerical machines.. All are F/L Picture of the 150lb useing SA8 very lo suds. Tide with bleach usually gives about on inch more of suds but not hard to rinse at all. The 150 only uses about 25 gallons of water for each step in the cycle.. Mac

 

[sudsman]

Suds level

150 lb machine S A 8

 

[vintagesearch]

here's a quick tip that my cousin did with powder detergent in a regular toploader:

she would add the measured amount, then set the water level for small, let the washer agitate for a minute until she saw the suds, then adjusted the water level accordingly, added the laundry reset the timer or cycle and NEVER had problems, try it.
hope that helped.

V _

 

[launderess]

Hey Sudsmaster

Am surprised you find Tide w Bleach clean rinsing, it seems to take forever to rinse out in my Miele, and is very high sudsing. As of now the nearly full box and it's cousin, Tide Coldwater are in the discard pile awaiting delivery to mother's house. Yes, TWB cleans very well, but find like all Tide products it tends to not rinse well, and the scent just won't come out for several subsequent launderings.

Right now am using Tide "Professional Stain Remover" as a detergent in some loads, when not using Persil. It is "HE"/low foaming and though Tide Professional's customer service line tells one NOT to use the product as regular detergent, the MSDS says the product is simply Tide. Stuff is very concentrated and quite low sudsing,but give excellent results cleaning wise. Scent is "ok", but like all Tide products hangs around for awhile.

Soap In Laundry:

Will pretreat the odd stain or grimy collar with Fels soap (vintage stuff made by Purex), but overall find even with STPP softened water, soap has too many drawbacks for use in general laundry. It just does not rinse out well, and can cause tattle-tale grey build-up no matter what one does.

What one will do is swish a bar of Savon de Marseille or Fels soap around in a large Pyrex measuring cup of hot water, and then add to the wash through the dispenser drawer. Use this mainly for linens (Savon de Marsielle has a wonderful scent), and in the case of Fels Naptha Soap, for breaking down heavy scent residue on laundry and extra stain removal(Naptha is a great solvent based stain remover).

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[launderess]

Forgot to add that when using soap, it is in conjuction with regular detergent such as Persil or Wisk powder (unscented). In short making up a home version of laundry detergent with "natural soap" that seems to be all the rage at the moment.

L.

 

[cleanfresh]

Launderess, you are so right

about the drawbacks of soap that's why detergent is king. You're also right about homemade detergents made with soap being "in vogue". I have seen so many recipes for homemade detergents on laundry/cleaning products discussion forums.

 

[launderess]

Oh No,

Wasn't refering to the homemade soap based detergents, but rather how everyone and their mother seems to be adding "pure soap" or "plant based" soap to their detergents. At first it was confined to specialty detergents for linens and other fine laundry, now Persil as a version with "Savon de Marsielle", and Arm&Hammer has their own new product.

L.

 

[sudsmaster]

I don't think the "plant based soap" that is advertised on some detergents is a soap at all, but rather a surfactant derived from a plant oil. The marketing depts get away with this perhaps because of all the public confusion as to what is a soap and what is a detergent.

 

[rolls_rapide]

I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but I found that using liquid detergents and even the 'Colour' detergents, left the sweaty under-arm residues virtually untouched. So much so, that when ironing the particular shirts, the smell of stale body odour was quite dreadful.

I switched back to conventional detergents (Ariel Tablets in the green box), and the problem has disappeared.

Too bad if the clothes fade: I will not stand dirty clothes.

Besides, faded clothes mean more of an excuse to update your wardrobe, DAAAHLING! LOL