Powder vs. liquid detergent

[frontloaderfan]

In the thread about the failed LG spider, someone raised a very interesting question which I myself know little to nothing about. Since I do not want to make myself guilty of threadjacking, I'm starting a new thread:

What are the arguments against liquid detergent as far as how they can adversely affect corrosion? I have been using Tide HE liquid in my front loader since I've had it, since I'm not a fan of the el cheapo store brands. When I lived in Germany, I always used either Persil or Frosch powder detergent and never had any complaints at all.

I would again use Persil here but have never really seen it anywhere for sale and don't want to pay $ 50.00 a box for it.

I should also add that I wash my whites in (truly) hot water thanks to a modification that our own Martin told me about. I use a small amount of Oxyclean and bleach with the whites and also Downy FS...I run a clean cycle about once a month with either Affresh or bleach.

 

[henene4]

Liquid dertergents at all tend to have the problem of water softner (which we here in Germany feel a lot).
Further, they are (if you want so) powder filled up with water to say it simple.
At all, they are not bad in my opinion, perfect for delicates and woolens. But for normal clothing, I would choose powder (a good cncntrated one, not these with dosages of 300ml plus). Simpler do dose, use and contains bigger amounts of the "nescesarry stuff".
And they tend to suds less in our case. And if there are suds, they dissolve pretty well...

 

[pierreandreply4]

wrong liquid detergent is the same as powder detergent and in my opinion powerder detergent are not made for fl washer all new washers of today requires the use of a good low suds detergent and i saw the lg thread with the correded sipder it strengethen my toughs of going back to a good old fashion topload washer

 

[mich]

Sodium Hypochlorite & Sodium Percabonate

DO NOT MIX. I repeat, Clorox Bleach & Oxyclean. Should not be mixed under any circumstances. I read somewhere, that there is a possibility of Mustard Gas (very toxic) forming, when mixed.

 

The reasoning, is Oxy-Clean, breaks down into a form of Hydrogen Peroxide, and Clorox breaks down into Chlorine. When mixed, the oxygen attempts to kill off the chlorine, but the chlorine is much stronger, and they just collide, and useually the Chlorine dies off and the Oxygen is wasted. However, in some circumstances, during the attempt by oxygen to kill off chlorine, an acid is produced causing a dangerous  gas to form. 

 

In other words when mixed, you get no whitening effect, whatsoever, and you put yourself at risk, with harmful fumes. 

 

Be safe out there, 

 

Mich

 

[arbilab]

Do not mix sodium hypochlorite with ANYthing. Even other 'chlorine' cleansers like Comet. It's VERY reactive and very hard to predict (at the lay level) what the reaction will be.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Back in early 2005

when I first got my Duet front load washer, I did a lot of reading on Gardenweb forum. I remember reading several times that powder was better, so pretty much since day 1, I've used Either Sears HE powder, Tide HE, and most of all Gain HE powder, with HOT water and chlorine bleach used in whites. Doing 4 loads per weak, I always do the whites LAST (not sure why, I just always have). Washer still works great but who knows?? So many people probably use liquids and do not have problems either.

 

[washer111]

Personally believe liquids are bad for the washer, as well as clothes.

For goodness sake, the stuff is like mucous, contains clay compounds and doesn't clean nearly as well as powders do. In the Australian consumer testing magazine "Choice," this was seen. Noticed that the best liquids were about 10% worse than the best powders.
As for the claim that powders are not meant for front-loading machines, I disagree. Powders create less suds, especially when dosed appropriately. All you get in liquids is overdosed pre-mixed detergent.

Although, liquids are good when one has delicate skin, as they seem to be less harsh in terms of cleaning products contained. Remember though, everything has its place. Liquids are not suitable to any serious laundry activity. When mixed with tepid water temperatures, you will get snot in your washer, just like when one overuses fabric softeners.
As Combo52 pointed out, laundromat machines (as abused and neglected as they are), will generally not have buildup, due to hot washes and wide variety of detergents used.

 

[aquacycle]

It's a little different in Europe.

I know in the US, one would buy a detergent plus additional stain removers/bleaching agents to add in to loads that require it. Over here, all you need is a good detergent.

Biological and non-biological washing powders (excluding colour detergent) both contain oxygen based bleaching agents for hygiene reasons, stain removal and to keep whites looking bright. There are NO washing liquids over here that contain oxygen based bleaching agents as these are unstable in liquid form. A good biological powder containing enzymes and oxygen based bleaching agents is all you would ever really need to remove stains.

In my experience, liquids are fine for lightly soiled clothes, but for anything that's stained or anything where hygiene is a more important factor (such as towels, kitchen cloths, bedding or white items), a good powder is a better option. I've never once had to go out and buy additional stain removers (oxi-clean, vanish etc).

I've heard many times that liquds are bad for your machine and can lead to a build up of residue on internal parts, but I've not had any experience of this and can't really explain how/why this happens. I know that machines where liquid is exclusively used tend to smell quite mouldy due to the lack of bacteria-killing bleaching agents, even more so where the user washes in cool or cold water. I've seen many machines where the drum seal has gone black with mould and there's been a bottle of some sort of liquid stood next to the machine.

 

[aquacycle]

powerder detergent are not made for fl washer

Sorry, but that's rubbish.

As I'm sure you're aware, front loading machines have always been more popular in the UK and Europe. Infact, I don't think there is a top-loader on sale in he UK at all at the moment.

Despite heavy advertising from all the major detergent manufacturers, powders STILL remain more popular. When dosed correctly, there are little to no suds in the drum and they wash better due to additional ingredients not used in liquid detergents (as above).

 

[frontloaderfan]

I see....

I had no idea I was making such a stupid mistake with mixing the two bleaching agents, although I have to say that the bleach is always added in the first rinse, whereas the Oxyclean is added to the wash water. I'm sure there is always a residual amount of Oxyclean in the clothes after the first spin, but I never noticed anything out of the ordinary...All the same, just to be safe, I'll use the CLB with my whites and the Oxyclean on colors.
I saw Persil for sale online here in the US directly from Henkel (at least I think it was them). Not exactly cheap, though. About $1 US per load.

 

[frigilux]

I've used Amyway's version of Oxi-Clean called "Tri-Zyme" along with liquid chlorine bleach many, many times and I'm still standing.

My go-to detergent for stained loads is Tide With Bleach, and I'm sure that has oxygen-based bleach in it. I add liquid chlorine bleach to all of those loads.

Have I been playing with dynamite all this time? Yikes!

 

[logixx]

Yeah, what about the people who use Tide powder in their traditional top loaders and also add bleach to the wash? Tide surely contains oxy in it already.

 

[arbilab]

Back when I prescribed (sic) to Consumers, they consistently downrated liquids vs powders.

Recently 'attempted' Tide HE liquid from Tide HE powder and was GROSSLY disappointed.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I wasn't aware of the

mixing LCB with Oxygen Bleach either.......But Luckily, I don't use Oxg Bleach. I have however, used PINE SOL with detergent in a particularly dirty load.

 

[pierreandreply4]

me i never use bleach

me i never use bleach i seem to have read a long time ago that liquid bleach is bad for clothes and not all clothing can handle bleach i have some nice bed sheets but the type of bed sheets i have do not handle bleach me i much rather stick to liquid detergent witch in my book clean better than any type of powder detergent and disolve better

 

[frontloaderfan]

If it were only the comparatively worse wash results, I could live with liquids, but when I hear stuff like they coat the insides of the washer, that is enough to make me want to switch. I have no problems with powder detergents at all, but with the pitiful amount of water most modern North American FL's use, it didn't seem like powders were the right choice. Now that my washer actually uses a decent amount of (hot!) water, I am going to try powder again. I ordered a box of Persil online. I remember how good it is. Can't wait to try it out here!
I'm a firm believer in bleach when there's no onboard heater to disinfect the clothes. It's no wonder some people have problems with build-up in their machines when they use only cold water and no bleach...

 

[DADoES]

 
Chlorine bleach, used with reasonable care, keeps mold away.

 

[mwb]

So much misinformation

Far too much misinformation being disseminated in this thread. First and foremost, mixing chlorine with an "Oxi" product does not produce mustard gas or anything harmful. They should not be mixed for one reason only; they neutralize each other.

Chlorine bleach should never be used in conjunction with ammonia or vinegar as chloramine gas or chlorine gas will result respectively. Both of these gases are extremely irritating to the linings of the lungs and may be fatal.

 

[frontloaderfan]

Just to underline that, I recalled reading something in the owner's manual of my washer. It only said not to mix chlorine bleach with any other household cleaning agents, such as ammonia, as poisonous gases could be generated. I knew this already, of course, but the Oxyclean-bleach combo threw me a curve. The owner's manual also recommends using an agent such as Oxyclean in the wash. Since the machine adds bleach in the first rinse, there is no harm done.

 

[henene4]

You are so right mwb. The worst thing that can happen is excessive suds production (and i mean MASSIVE amounts of suds and foam).

And (even though it is the 2nd answer to this thread), @pierreandreply4:
You can't answer an opinion with "wrong". Opinions can't be wrong, only statements.
And then I ask, why you answer on my post, in which I state that liquids are powders filled up with water, with the sentense "wrong liquid detergent is the same as powder detergent" (if this is ment to be a sentence as you never use any punctuation marks)?
Further, powders still can be good low suds detergents. And we have used liquids for several years in our Mieles without problems, than used powders and wondered why our clothes looked brighter and more colorfull.That's why I vote for powder...
Overall, I just want to mention that you are one of the persons on here that just can't except the opinions of others and always have to say the opposite of that what others state. Just take a look at this answer and at the cold water wash thread. No problem if you like to wash in cold water with liquid detergent, but just because I or any body else washes in warm/hot water with powder, you don't have to say we do it wrong or that our opinions are wrong. You can say we could do it better in your opinion, but PLEASE don't say we are wrong because we don't think like you...

 

[whirlpolf]

@frigilux

Tri-Zyme, I used it myself, it is not an equivalent to those oxy products. Rather their "Powdered Fabric Bleach" stuff would be, that is their oxygen producing formula.

Nevertheless, I love Tri-Zyme but I miss the old SA8 products. The current "Legacy of Clean" detergents in their froglike green Playmobile or moist-nappy boxes, they are just not the same :-(

 

[mark_wpduet]

Bleach

For FL washers, (at least mine) the bleach dispenser holds a very small amount of bleach...and it is dispensed in the rinse cycle. There is NO WAY I can see never using liquid bleach......but a little of it goes a L O N G way...I think it really helps keep machine clean inside along with other ways to care for your machine.

I use the sanitary cycle, powder, bleach, and vinegar for rinse in all my white's....

 

[whitetub]

I like to use powder detergent, but the HE versions available here, in Canada, are pretty limited when it comes to powders (Tide, Gain and Sunlight come to mind). All of them are perfumed. I like using unscented detergents, dye free, and basically all of them are in liquid form. I have been using the Up and Up brand, from Target, and it's pretty good. Perfume free, dye free.
The selection of liquids is probably 5 times bigger than the powder selection.
I used to get Persil with oxy bleach, at a Lebanese supermarket (ADONIS), and it was about 10$ for a big box. I loved it. Cleaned my whites so well, no suds, but with a nice clean scent. Now, they don't carry it anymore, since that chain of supermarket was bought by a bigger, more corporate supermarket chain.

An appliance dealer sells Persil, right next to that supermarket, but it's around 45$ a box.
So I have been using liquids now for a while. I wash in hot water, sometimes I even add a kettle of boiling hot water in my whites. I use oxy-bleach in powder with the whites.

My machine is 3 years old, and still smells clean. I leave the door open at all times.

 

[miele_ge]

Persil is the way to go if you have a front loader (IMHO)...

The powder that is....

 

Ryan,

 

If you calculate the cost per load using the # of loads on the box, it does seem very expensive. However, in my 5Kg Miele machine, I only use about 1/8 cup for average loads and maybe 1/8 to 1/4 cup (or slightly more) for really dirty loads. Not sure about the cost per load, but we do a lot of laundry, and the Persil seems to last. Also, between the Miele and the Persil, I need no other laundry additives and everything comes out spotless. If you try Persil, you might find you don't need the Oxy since Persil already has it in the Universal formula and you might even be able to ditch the LCB too.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Alan

 

[frontloaderfan]

Alan:
I have thought I would not need the Oxyclean (also not cheap) with Persil. When I lived in Germany, I never used LCB either, as it is fairly unknown over there. I remember everything used to come out fresh-smelling and very clean and white. About the only additive I would add other than Persil or Frosch powder is Calgon water softener for the heating element in my Miele. Not sure if that actually helped, but I felt better putting it in. Since my Frigidaire doesn't have a heater, there's no need to add anything else except maybe a little FS once in a while.

 

[nickuk]

powder vs liquid

I still find that a good bio liquid plus an oxy bleach in powder form (when needed) used together gives better all round results than with a fully loaded powder.

Powder doesn't do as well on oily / greasy stains (cuff marks / mayonnaise etc) as liquid.

Just my findings from running a large family with fairly soiled laundry.

I use mainly hot and warm washes and also clean the machine regularly with descaler, bleach and stuff. The machine is clean. Problems arise when people (who don't know as much as us use liquid with cold water and huge, soiled loads all the time - yuck. Yep, I know of several machines with BLACK door seals (heaven only knows what's going on right inside the machine). The program dials usually are stuck firmly on `quick wash' and a bottle of some chav scented Surf nearby.

 

[mayguy]

I've been used Norwex Powdered for 3 years, and love it..  It don't have any perfume, and only use 2-3tsp per load.

 

I use vinegar as my fabric softener, and Oxy along w/ liquid bluing for my whites.

 

 

[mich]

Actually, YES.

Hydrogen Peroxide is an Acid. It might be a "weak" acid, but, it is a ACID. 

 

Acids like Vinegar, Ammonia, or any Acid, should never be mixed with Chlorine for one simple reason. Chlorine is a GAS, YES, IT'S A GAS. It's contained in a solution, making it "safer" for us to touch and use, but, when mixed with an ACID, like Ammonia, or in our case, Hydrogen Peroxide, that GAS can be released.

 

Don't say it can't. IT CAN, and it HAS before. It might take a lot, to make it happen, but is it honestly worth the risk?

 

Chlorine, in General, is a very nasty chemical. One does have to remember, it's original purpose wasn't to get things White, or Clean, it was used by Hitler to kill Soliders. In just one spray of Chlorine, or Mustard Gas, you could die in minutes. IT WAS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT SUFFOCATING, AND KILLING HUMANS. 

 

If you know me, or have followed me at all. You do know, I'm far from some "Eco-Warrior", "Tree Hugger", or, "Chemicals are Bad" kinda person, but I'm serious about this. This is dangerous, and I'd be very upset if I heard some story, about a fellow member getting sick, or worse from doing some combination. I do care about the people here, and I wouldn't stress this at all, if I didn't care. I've lost people in my life, from similar situations, and I don't wanna go through that again. Just, be careful, don't mix chemicals guys, it's not a good thing. 

 

 

[iheartmaytag]

Mustard gas was used during WWI, Hitler was not in that war.

Chlorine is a powerful oxidizer, and if used incorrectly can be dangerous.

Now if you really want to see a smoke cloud, mix bleach and brake fluid.

 

[mwb]

The sky is NOT falling...Repeat, the sky is NOT falling

Actually Mich, hydrogen peroxide is a base, not an acid. I'm sure everyone appreciates your concern; however in this case it's simply without merit.

FYI: Detergent manufacturers who tout terms like "colorguard" utilize additives that break down into simple hydrogen peroxide to neutralize chlorine that's found in most municipal water supplies. This chlorine can theoretically over time, fade bright colors.