Self cleaning ovens with hidden bake element

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iheartmaytag

iheartmaytag

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Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
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Location
Wichita, Kansas
Though I think this article is poppycock, there is an element that rings of truth.
One I think, why would manufacturers build something that you shouldn't use, then I think, because consumers demand it, and if it causes more repairs--all the better.
I am remembering the Corvair.

Having just had my first self-cleaner with hidden bake element delivered this last Saturday I ask: any problems with the hidden bake element burning out more often?

We had a GE range from 1979 until 1993, no repairs ever, self-cleaned about ever two or three months.

Maytag range, Self-cleaned about the same amount every two to three months, had to replace the exposed bake element every three or four years.

Any more than usual repairs experienced by the members her with this type of range?
RCD, this is a good time to give your two cents. [this post was last edited: 3/19/2013-12:49]

http://www.thekitchn.com/why-you-sh...he-self-cleaning-function-of-your-oven-175110
 
 
GE Profile JB968S0H1SS, dates to approx April 2004.  I'm not a heavy oven user and I run self-clean maybe once per year, but no trouble thus far.
 
Pre Heat times

I have only used my oven twice since Saturday, but I notice the broil element and the convection fan comes on during pre-heat. Once the oven is up to temp, the convection fan shuts off and I don't notice the broil element.

Preheat time to 375 was 12 minutes on Sunday when I baked biscuits. It took about 18 minutes to get to 425 when I baked cornbread.
 
Some manufacturers first tried these in the late 40s, early 50s. Hotpoint, WH & Thermador are ones I have seen. Not only do you have to force the heat through the oven bottom, which makes it slower, it subjects the oven bottom to hideous heat stress. I commented on this at a WP-KA new product meeting in the 90s, I think. They said that would not be an issue with new porcelain made to withstand self-cleaning temps--HA. In a regular, exposed bake element oven, the oven floor is cooler than the air just above it. In these ovens with the element under the floor, anything that drips on it not only sort of fuses to the porcelain, but also, if there is sugar or acid involved, like a fruit pie, instantly takes the glaze off the porcelain leaving a dull spot after cleaning. While many of the new ovens have convection capabilities so that you don't HAVE to use the hidden bake element, the old ones did not and while the stove was still good everywhere, the oven bottoms rusted out. Replacing a bake element in one of these means going in from the back, which is one thing in a free standing range, but it can mean a two man job for a double built-in wall oven which has to be pulled out of the wall. It is normally a quick job when the bake element is exposed at the bottom of the oven, but not so when it is hidden. You also can't put foil on the floor to catch splatters because it will fuse to the porcelain.
 
In the city we have a 2002 Whirlpool Gold self-cleaner with the hidden bake element and we've never had any trouble with it so far... For a 10-year old modern appliance that is a miracle... LOL

The oven in town gets very gentle use, however. We use the self-clean cycle no more than once a year, believe it or not!

The REAL baking gets done down in Ogden in the 56 turquoise GE (and I dutifully scrub it out each and every time I use it!)
 
Recent family experience with a 27-inch double GE convection oven would lend me to think that the article is not off-base at all.

My parent's house was built in 1987 and came new to us with a 27-inch GE in wall oven with microwave above it. My Mom bakes and roasts a lot, especially on weekends and when my sister and I were at home. At about the 10-11 year mark on the original GE, the bake element burned out, and I replaced it in a matter of minutes - easy enough. That element lasted about another 10-11 years and it burned out around 2008/2009, which I replaced again, but this sparked the mood to replace the unit.

My Mom had wanted double ovens since we had a wonderfully successful 1977 GE 27-inch unit in our house in Denver. That was not a top of the line unit, with the top oven self-cleaning but the lower one not. I think this was very common for the 1970s however.

We decided to make the cabinet modifications to fit the slightly taller GE units, and Mom bought herself the absolute best model GE offered. She has always bought upper MOL, and decided to treat herself. Again, her model is the top of the line --- last time I looked it was still on GE's website as current, maybe six months ago.

I never liked the hidden bake element idea due to heat build-up, and slowness of preheats, but I didn't say much during the shopping process. As all our GE oven appliances, the broil elements do come on in these units to speed preheating, and they are used at a low output level to maintain oven heat. Preheating though is a ridiculously slow process even with the broiler, especially for the non-convection lower oven. They look nice and uncluttered with no exposed elements, but I would not buy one of these for myself, ever. My freestanding GE range will pre-heat in less than half the time Mom's fastest smaller oven.

The unit has an internal fan to cool itself due to the enclosed elements. The whole surrounding cabinet gets warm, VERY warm during prolonged use or cleaning but it didn't with the original '87 GE. Sometimes those fans are on for 2+ hours after a period of long use. Close inspection on these when we got them yielded a "I won't be replacing these elements" statement from me, as it looks like the whole unit would have to come out to access the elements. If that is the case, its ridiculously stupid.

In addition, my mother, a very accomplished baker and chef, cannot find a zone in the top oven that doesn't either burn the bottoms of baked goods and even some meats, or burn the tops. Cookies baked in my 2003 GE Spectra with exposed element are much more evenly baked, and un-burned as compared to countless, countless experiments made by Mom to find the right zone or rack position and the right thermostat calibration to make the ovens acceptable.

Ever try a take and bake pizza in one of these? They suck. My oven nicely browns the lower crust of a fresh pizza. In order to do that in Mom's, it will dry-out or burn the tops before it browns the bottom, unless you move the pizza to the lowest rack setting. That get it away from the effects of the broil element, but is then too close to the bottom of the oven. We had none of these problems with any of the previous GEs.

We haven't had any self-cleaning problems yet, but I am so dissappointed for her, after more than 20 years of wanting a double oven, that I'd love to see a failure in this POS unit so I could buy her an MOL Whirlpool which at last check still had exposed elements.

They spent over $2600 on that oven set, and I'd say it is a barely passable success. I don't these ovens do anywhere near the job in heat management and distribution that the older GEs did, and I would not be at all surprised if this shortens the life of the elements. I sold the '87 GE oven set on Craigslist for $100 to a family who was really glad to get it. I'm not sure I'd be willing to sell this current oven without telling the prospective buyer that they are lousy units.[this post was last edited: 3/19/2013-14:23]
 
I have seen issues with the hidden bake elements. Longer preheat times are common. They cannot run the bake element all the time, glowing red as it will damage the oven. So, the bake elements are pulsed. I've seen crazing of the inner oven liner finish and changing the element can be quite the pill. Most wall ovens with hidden bake elements do indeed need to come out as the elements are changed from the back. There are ranges where you have to remove the side panel (usually requiring removal of the main top first to reach a few hidden screws. Cute, huh?) and the element slides out from the side.

That being said, I've been dealing with them for a while. Maytag was really getting into them after the Amana line was folded in. Now, Kitchenaid and Jenn Air really has the hi stiff one for the design, ESP in wall ovens. I've only had to change two hidden elements in wall ovens and about the same in ranges. We'll see how it goes after the products in the field get a few more years in them.

The most common thing I see die after a self clean cycle is the oven sensor (or thermistor). I use the self clean feature on my JennAir convection range (JES series) regularly and have had no issues. I have never been a huge fan of foil on the oven floor. It can fuse to the floor with a hidden element but I feel it can reflect heat goofy sometimes and fool the oven sensor or make contact with the exposed element and cause a possible hot spot on it and result on element failure. IMHO.

RCD
 
We have an upper/MOL Kenmore in the basement of our church, from about 2005 or so. It serves as an overflow from the main kitchen, where there are 2 large commercial ovens. It has the hidden bake element, and it takes 30-45 minutes to preheat, and then takes forever to cook anything. At home we have an early 1990's Whirlpool, with exposed elements, and it takes a maximum of 5 minutes to get to 350. It bakes quickly and evenly, and self cleans very welli. about an hour and a half.
 
My Dad's Wife

Has a Bosch Wall Oven and Range with the hidden element.

I HATE BOTH THOSE OVENS. You can't get a true preheat, the Preheat does take forever, and it's been serviced 5 times and will not hold a accurate Temperature.

I am a Chef and at 57 years old, I have cooked on many Home Ranges.

My Sears Kenmore I bought in 2004 was next up from the BOL. The Cooktop Heats(Open Elements, hate the Glass Tops) Beautiful and the Oven Bakes like a Dream I paid $299.00.

Oh Yeah, back to the sealed element.

Don't Like Them. For the remaining years of my life, I will buy Vintage Ranges should I need one. I should pick up a few more ranges while they are around. Lord knows I have enough Dishwashers and Washers to last the rest of my Life. LOL
 
Although gas ovens typically have the oven burner under the floor of the oven, there's plenty of air movement going on to spread the heat around, and of course a gas flame probably isn't as hot as an electric heating element going full blast. So it makes sense that modern mfg's are having to pulse the heating element to avoid damage. I imagine that they are also running the convection fan during pre-heat for the same goal.

Not a problem here. The 70's vintage GE P-7 wall oven heats to 375F in about five minutes. It's only a 24 inch wide model, with plenty of good insulation, but it does a fairly good job, with relatively even heating for things like pizza, bread, or cookies. For convection, a Cuisinart toaster oven.

IMHO, concealed heating elements are a great idea for dishwashers (ala Bosch). But maybe not so hot (no pun intended) for electric ovens.
 
Thanks for the feedback from everyone. So far I haven't had any complaints from the performance of the oven, or cooktop (which is ceramic glass). I baked pork chops last night and was not dissatisfied. I am going to bake cookies tonight so that will be a test. Will be doing bread and cinnamon rolls this weekend. I think being a convection oven will help with some of the cons. The preheat times are not that far off from the Maytag that it replaced.

So far I do like the range and it was not cheap so I hope everything will be ok. I am glad I opted for the extended warranty never-the-less; so I have five years that it's their problem. I also have 30 days to return and exchange the range if there is something I don't like. I am just going to have to quit fretting and enjoy it. [this post was last edited: 3/20/2013-08:47]
 
No problems here

My .02 cents worth--which is worth less :)! I put in a KA 27 inch electric wall oven about 8-10 years ago with the hidden element and so far have had no issues with it. As a matter of fact we liked this oven so much that when we did a kitchen remodel 2.5 years ago we went with a KA slide in range that is TOL--so we now have two ovens in the kitchen as we bake a lot. The little oven is not convection, but it gets to temp fast--of course this oven is small. The big oven does take longer to pre-heat. The baking results have been fantastic. Cakes come out beautifully as well as breads. We especially like the convection oven!

Now, the KA slide in does have that ceramic cook top in white that we absolutely despise! You can not boil water for tea without having to get cleanser and scrub pads out! God help you if you elect to use cast iron for cooking on the stove top! If I could do it over--gas cook top and an electric oven!!

Good luck with yours and I hope you like it!
 
Mitch

The new range is white on White and I actually don't think it shows dirt as badly as the previous range that was black on black. The black range showed every finger print, every speck of dust, every splatter etc.

Nice thing I like about the white top is you can tell which burner is hot. On the black top you had the indicator light that told you the surface was hot but not which burner. The white burners turn yellow when they are hot and back to white when they cool. This way you know which one is hot, of course, best practice is to place your hand above the burner and feel for heat before you touch.
 
Like the look of the white

on white--that is what ours is. It does look nice when it is all cleaned up :). I also like the black appliances, but after having a black washing machine and a black fridge in the basement--I know exactly wat you mean about it showing everything!

If you can, post a pic of your new baby--would love to see it!!
 
We have a 2008 Electrolux Icon 30" dual fuel range with hidden bake element.  I use the self-clean option no more than twice a year.

 

So far, there have been no problems with this system.  I just now mixed up some banana bread batter and pre-heating to 350 took seven whole minutes.  The oven was ready before I was.
 
Made a batch of Oatmeal Scotchies last night. Started the oven before I began mixing. I didn't time it, but the temp was ready before I was. I baked four racks (four dozen cookies) on convection bake.

They did take longer than the 10-12 minutes the recipe called for about 18 minutes, but was not out of line for being a larger batch. The Maytag it replaced took about 15. This oven auto corrects and sets the temp 25 degrees cooler on convect, I used to set the oven at the temp called for and didn't correct for convection cooking, so this could be a difference in the speed. Cookies were perfectly and evenly browned.

I noticed after I was finished that I set the oven for Convection single rack baking instead of Convection multi-rack bake. I am not sure if it makes any difference, but there are two buttons that differentiate the two not sure what they do differently.

All ovens are different, so it is going to take getting used to so far I don't dislike it.

Mitch,
I will post pics when I get a chance.

**I had to add this**
The range originally only came with 3 racks. I was a bit disappointed because my previous range had four racks so you could do the entire batch of cookies at once. (I bake a lot of cookies for kid's school). The lady at Sear's told me when I bought it to try my old racks and if they didn't fit to call her. I called her Saturday after the range was delivered and told her they would not fit. She said that she would look for another rack, but was afraid the cost would stop my heart.

When I got home yesterday a brand new, original equipment made by GE rack was sitting on the front porch. She had ordered it for me at no charge. Now is that customer service or what?[this post was last edited: 3/21/2013-08:35]
 
 
Can't say about your unit ... my GE Profile on single-rack convection runs the regular lower bake element with the circulation fan. Multi-rack convection runs the convection element and fan, not the lower bake element.
 
I have a Sears convection range. There are 2 options - convection bake and convection roast. On convection bake, the entered temperature is the temperature selected and the convection element on the back wall and fan operate. On convection roast, the entered temperature is lowered automatically by 25 degrees and the element on the bottom and fan operate. The lowest temperature that can be entered is 325 on convection roast.

Gary
 
Wow!

That was GREAT customer service from Sears--kudos to them! That is the way Sears used to do things. Glad they got you hooked up with 4 racks!

Glad to hear you are liking the new range--interesting about the different convect modes for multi-rack/single rack baking. I wonder if it affects the fan speed and/or does something with the temp.

I think I am going to time mine on how fast the big oven gets to 350-which seems like a long time. It may just be that I am used to the smaler oven being so fast.

Thanks for the additioinal info!
 
Just remember that because it says 'preheated' doesn't mean it really is. The oven sensor will say 'I've reached, say, 350' but the actual metal oven cavity is still coming up to that temp. In the business, we let the oven actually cycle about 2-4 times before finally checking temps for a more accurate reading. I've noticed that the hidden bake element units will actually signal preheated about 25-50 or thereabouts below the desired temp then slowly coast up to it.

RCD
 
Drew makes a good point. Typically for most stuff (pizzas and such) I just wait until the P-7 lower element cycles off, which takes about five minutes. I keep a good oven thermometer hanging from the broil element (never use broil) and check that as well. But just because the thermometer says "375" and the bottom element has cycled off, doesn't mean that all parts of the oven are up to temp. For baking bread or cakes I'd probably also wait until the element had cycled on and off a few more times before loading the oven with product. For frozen pizza, or a tray of fish sticks, who cares?
 
I've had a Bosch Gas range with an electric oven since 2005. So far no problem with the concealed element. Although I do many things on the convection bake setting which doesn't use the lower element as it instead blows heat out of the back of the oven over the food.

No problem during self cleaning. I am not sure what elements are in use, but there is no fan sound so I don't think the convection part is being used.

Still no problems.
 
Well I tried it

Drew--that is something I did not know---thank you for bringing that to my attention. I started the big oven preheating at 4:25 PM EDT, using standard bake (no convection) with 350 as the target temp. At 4:41 is chimed that it was up to temp. So, yeah, I think it is slower to preheat as opposed to a regular element--basing this on ovens we have had in the past.

mitch++3-21-2013-15-56-36.jpg
 
Seems to be a contradiction to have a self-cleaning oven & never use (and yes, I'm way behind on cleaning the oven in my dad's range; mom refused to use the very feature she'd prided herself on buying a new range for in 1982 & by 2006 had gone through one more to get that one that is there now!) at least according to what I've read in the article, while the feedback in terms of comments are the usual variety of agreement, disagreement, support, non-support, like & dislike...

My gas range I merely used the pre-set 3 hours for to get a fair job & only wonder if setting it to the "Hi" setting to obtain 4 hours would have made a difference in a cleaner oven?

("Lo" makes a 2 hour cleaning, of which w/ a little more use of the oven & more frequent use of the S/C feature would break the same results, though my GE P-& electric way back in the days of my apt., set to similarity would really have beaten it...!)

-- Dave
 
Time to Temp

I've been following this thread with some interest. I have a KitchenAid Convection range that is about 10 years old. It has an exposed bake element. I was unaware that some ovens will reduce the set temp if you are using the convection mode, I wonder if mine is like that.

I have a few decent data gathering instruments so last night I ran a time to temp. I set the oven to 350 F standard Bake cycle. The oven signaled being at temp in 8:57. I attached a photo of the meter.

I'll export the data and create a better graph to share. I'll also run a convection mode test and overlay that too. It would be really interesting to see one of the hidden element ovens time to temp graphed like this. I'll have to see if I know of one I can test. I'll probably post results in a new thread so as not to hijack.

kb0nes++3-22-2013-13-35-38.jpg
 

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