Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

[limey]

Corrosion And Mold

To laundress.
My theory only holds when a washer is allowed to dry out so that the concentration of the damageing chemicals reach a pH value above about 8.0. Most comercial washers I do not think dry out often enough to cause these types of problems.

 

[ronhic]

Well the solution....

....seems to be...

Buy a good detergent...

Avoid liquid bleach etc...

Leave the door ajar...

.....which is exactly what the majority of Europeans and Australians do....

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion By Laundry Aids

To combo52
I have no intention of tearing down either of my two washers whilst they are still working satisfactorily. I will wait for the first sign of bearing rumble; it is a pity the bearing housing is not accessible to a stethoscope, or I might catch it a little earlier, or my wife complaining of the smell. Unfortunately I see no practical way of viewing the hub of the spider without tearing the drums apart. An industrial endoscope might be able to get up the back through one of the larger vane holes but I doubt that anything useful would be seen, anyway I do not have one and I do not suppose they are part of the normal appliance repairman’s toolkit.
What is unfair about putting a drop of bleach, not full strength as you claim, the bottle gave it as a 5% solution, not that it matters, on the spider? You stated in your previous post ‘Bleach has nothing to do with corrosion of the spider,’ I believe I have demonstrated that it has that possibility, should its concentration rise sufficiently. How could that happen? By water evaporating from the very small amounts of water, soil, laundry aids and tap water left behind at the end of the last spin cycle. How do you believe the spiders are corroded? Assuming that we can agree that they are, being corroded that is, can we?
Please note that I cannot understand the last sentence of your first post, it appears to contradict itself.
I do not doubt your experience with regard to the rebuilding of washers, you say you have dealt with thousands, I take that to mean in excess of 2,000, at one every working day it would take about 8 years to complete the 2,000, and you like me, have been round long enough to do it. Our difference being I have only dismantled the two front loaders describe on this site and one old ‘Hoover’ with the impeller on the side of the tub and that was about 40 years ago. I did however spend, on and off, most of my working life investigating mechanical failures, I have also, in the dim past, worked as a development engineer for a company that designed and built high speed diesel engines so I do believe that I have some idea as to how an investigation should be pursued. One thing I have learnt during that time is NEVER disregard anything anyone says, out of hand, somewhere in it there maybe the clue that solves the problem. That is why I ask you what you think causes the corrosion.

When you have all the major manufacturers on your side what do you mean? Are they saying that bleach and other laundry aids with a pH in excess of 8.0 are not corroding the spiders? Should this be the case I would have thought they would have said as much to me when I raised the query with them, instead of the wall of silence that I am getting. Additionally have they given you any information as to why the spiders fail close to the hub, or why some brands seem more prone to this failure than others?

The attached photograph is of the spider removed from my machine and it clearly shows very little corrosion on the outer halves of the arms, why do you think this is?

Finally, have you read the penultimate paragraph of my first post? If affirmative, do you understand it?

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response

 

[limey]

Corrosion And Mould

To ronic

That would be a start but it will not get rid of the corrosion completely neither will it get rid of any of the foul smells.

To get rid of the corrosion the spider needs to be made of, or coated with material(s), which will resist the possible corrosion effects of the laundry aids and tap water in the concentrations which might be expected when evaporation occurs, which will be speeded up when you leave the door open.

Should the manufacturers persist in using aluminium then the spider will need to be redesigned to eliminate recesses close to the hub where water can collect and not be completely removed, even after the fastest spin cycle. It needs to be redesigned anyway to remove the recesses so that as little water as possible is left to slow and possibly halt the growth of mould/mildew in these wet recesses. This will not, of course, remove all the possibilities for mould but it will go a long way, I feel, towards it

 

[hoover1100]

as far as I'm aware

all the machines I've used have had aluminium spiders.

only one of them ever had a problem, but it was the cheapest machine on the market at the time and abuse of liquid detergents, low temps and keeping the door shut were more than likely to blame.

As Chris said, good detergent containing oxi bleach, washing above 40c, and often 60c and 95c when possible, not using chlorine bleach and keeping the door open to allow the machine to dry out should keep it fine.

Odour and mould issues, as well as drum spider failure are pretty much unheard of in machines used like this, at least over here.

Matt

 

[supremewhirlpol]

Think of it this way...

If this flaw with the spiders was indeed fixed, then the manufactures would have to find another part or area of the machine to weaken, or make more expensive to replace. Yes, bearings are a given, that just leaves the control stuff that can fail. People buy new machines because parts like the spider, controls, along with the cost of labor have been priced high enough in order for most people to buy a new machine. Has anyone checked CL lately? People are posting these newer FL machines left and right and dirt prices because of these failing parts.

 

[combo52]

Limey the corrosion on your spiders is more of a hard water build up from using to little detergent. Neither of the spiders you showed us have experienced any type of failure. Your machines had water seal failures which allowed water to ruin the bearings. The seal failure was likely caused by the reasons I stated in the first sentence. I have worked on more than 60,000 major appliances and continue to work on more than 3000 per year. As stated before all washers have major parts made of aluminum that are exposed to water. Dry parts can not corrode water and oxygen are necessary heat helps, washers used a lot will have a much greater chance to corrode. Every US seller of machines recommends the use of bleach in thier machine. I have not generally noticed that manufactures recommend using thier products in a way that is harmful to thier life. Chuck all MT washers have aluminum gear cases they are not exposed to water but the tub mounting stem is.

 

[cfz2882]

of the 50 or so washers i have repaired or taken apart over the
last 30yrs,only found significant corrosion of aluminum on just
one-a 1984 SQ top load,the aluminum hub for the tub was badly
corroded-in this case clearly due to galvanic action,there was
a gasket of paper like material between the aluminum hub and
the stainless steel tub with plastic washers under the bolt
heads,insulating the two from each other and forming kind of
a battery...A 2nd '84 SQ in my fleet did not have the same
hub corrosion.
filter flos up to around 1985 have an aluminum tranny case
exposed to the wash water and i have not seen any corroded
through.when did a bearing job on my '98 frigilux F/L there
was only slight surface corrosion of the spider.

 

[limey]

Relative, But Only Just

To hoover 1100
I was over to the UK earlier this year. My parent’s, just under 4 years old; Hotpoint Oasis had recently had its bearings renewed. There is no bleach dispenser drawer, or anything similar, on this machine and the instruction sheet does not mention bleach at all. My sister had just dumped her Bosch because of ‘the smell’. Perhaps my family is just unlucky

 

[chestermikeuk]

Spiders

Hello David, interesting thread, various views!!!

In your first paragraph you stated:"Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain very, very small quantities of laundry aids used, soil from the laundry and chemicals from the ‘tap’ water."

I would offer another solution to the "Very Small Quantities theory".... One of the biggest issues is the overuse of Plant Based Fabric Softener, which from the last rinse, in heavy concentrations is then sprayed by the spin action all over the outer drum resulting in the spider being coated, and there lies the problem, that along with the use of Liquid Detergents containing no bleach and cold or low temp washes!!

Combine this with water energy efficiency guidelines, no hot water or maintenance washes and your ensuing build up of gunk continues!!! allowing all types of reactions to take place with said metals!!!

Through my job I`ve visited the P & G technical testing facility and have talked and observed testing methods, again giving my viewpoint from what I see and hear about from customers, family & friends and my own laundry practices.

The observation of machine testing that I have seen(IMHO) & I will ask the teccy guys to confirm, is that the machines being tested are used and rotated for use, ie. not used continuously and therefore (given the temps in the testing labs) would have been allowed to dry out etc, (although I would need to confirm levels of dryness given water in sump areas and humidity reaction!! )

Now these banks of machines are from the manufacturer promoting longevity in their machines!!!

 

[chestermikeuk]

UK Models

being tested using liquids, powders & fab con additives etc...

 

[limey]

Insight To The Future?

To supremewhirpol,

I agree, where are the ‘GREENS’ when you need them? This is not environmentally friendly. Whole back ends just because the bearings have gone. Basket and spider together because they are not available separately when only the spider is gone. Add in the labour and it is cheaper to buy a new machine.

Can you imagine what could/will happen if one of the manufacturer’s breaks ranks and fixes the spider problems. We will all need lifejackets there will be that many salivating lawyers about.

 

[chestermikeuk]

And US Models

Being put through their paces again using Liquids, Powders & Fabric conditioners!!!

 

[limey]

Corrosion and mould

Hi Mike,

I see from your profile that your Gran had a Creda Debonaire spin dryer; my parents had one of those. Wrestling that thing was good training for trying to bring down the opposition fly half on a wet Saturday afternoons. By golly they did get the clothes dry though, pulling them apart to go on the line was another matter. Memories.

With respect to your comments on plant based fabric softeners I would add the following comments: -
1. The vast majority of the last spin ‘water’ thrown from the inner drum will have drained to the bottom of the outer drum, and hopefully have been pumped out, by the time the inner drum stops rotating.
2. When the inner drum stops rotating the whole drums assembly is slightly inclined towards the door, at least in mine it is, leading to any, ‘water’ draining towards the front of the outer drum, where the pump suction, logically, is. This would mean, in my view, that only very small quantities of ‘water’ stand any chance of dripping onto the back of the inner drum and even less of dripping directly onto the spider.
3. When the laundry is removed from mine the inner drum returns to a ‘level’ position. I am assuming that the inner surfaces of the outer drum do at least the same, perhaps with a slight inclination towards the front at all times for drainage purposes, but I don’t know, perhaps your ‘teccy’ acquaintances can give some insight.
4. Any ‘water’ that that had dripped or splashed onto the spider, except for a very small quantity of any that had found its way to the area near the shaft, would have been thrown off during the last spin cycle.

Thanks for the photograph of the washers under test. Not an open door in sight, health and Safety, or all in use? Are they still made in P boro?

I would greatly appreciate your comments and any follow up you can give, please use my email if you want to keep it private.

Thank you
Regards
David

 

[chestermikeuk]

Debonairs

Hi David, and welcome to the club from over here!!!Where you born in UK & emigrated to Canada?? unfortunatly no Hotpoint washers are made in the UK anymore, (washers where produced in Llandudno, North Wales) along with any other manufacturer!! yes those copper Creada spinners where the mainstay of UK laundry appliances...

Take your point about the water in your specific machine, what we are experiencing here is overuse of conditioner which produces a frothy foam all over the outer drum and boots etc and so will tend to stick on surfaces longer than water would, combine that with hair, skin & oils etc and improper rinsing, overloading and not using the machine properly , then all combine to give odours and slime!!!

You`ve intrigued me now about the "Doors Closed", will ask the tec guys as it could be H & S or perhaps they are trying to replicate mould growth issues etc!!! I wonder if other machines in eastern countries have similar issues??

Cheers, Mike

 

[hoover1100]

Limey

Bearing failures are common on Hotpoint/Indesit machines (both the same machines these days). It is caused by poor seals on bearings allowing water to get inside, not really to do with corrosion. Have never heard of an oasis model though.

I can only suggest that your sister was either not doing regular hot washes, using only liquid or colourcare detergents and/or keeping the door shut between cycles. If you do take these precautions your machine will not smell, to replace a machine because of smells caused by misuse is very extreme, a good boil wash with lots of powdered detergent and a good cleaning out would have got it good as new, I've never heard of or seen a machine that was too smelly or mouldy to be cleaned.

All powdered detergents here that are not labelled as being colour safe contain activated oxygen bleach, basically no one here would ever use chlorine bleach in their washing machine and since detergents already contain oxi-bleach, there is no reason to add more or have a seperate dispenser for it.

Matt

 

[limey]

My Mistake

To Hoover 1100
Thanks for picking that one up it should be Hotpoint Aquarius, my apoligies.

I don't know what my sister was or was not doing only that she told me she had dumped it because of 'the smell'.

 

[ronhic]

I've

...never had a washing machine smell of anything nasty, musty or mouldy (1994 Australian Hoover electra front loader/2001 Blomberg 1301 front loader/2005 zanussi electrolux front loader/2006 zanussi westinghouse front loader)

The hoover is still going strong at a mates, the Blomberg we sold with our flat in the UK and both the zanussi machines are going strong too....one at the coast and one in daily use here.

None of them smell at all....you can stick your head in the door and all you can smell is 'clean'

and neither have:

- my sister (Fisher and Paykel top loader/Simpson top loader); or
- my mother (1968 simpson solid tub fluid drive/1989 ASEA front loader/2008 Fisher and Paykel front loader)

Now given my father is a builder and brother in law a motor mechanic, their machines have seen some 'dirt'....it literally boils down to:

- Good detergent
- airing the machines out by leaving lids/door open
- warm washes
- no chlorine bleach (just not in the Australian mind set compared to nth America)
- MINIMAL use of fabric conditioner

I defy anyone to have a smelly machine if the above is followed from new....

Though, a thought.

The vast majority of Australian and European machines are located in areas with good natural light - kitchens, bathrooms and dedicated laundry rooms....especially when compared to garages and basements....

I wonder if this could have anything to do with it?

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion

To combo52
I am sorry but I just cannot agree that the corrosion on ‘my’ spiders is due to hard water build up. For it to be the ‘scum’ it would be relatively easy to remove, the deposits on my spider were most definitely not and I have never seen a scum build up like that. Additionally one would expect a ‘scum’ line anywhere water had sat for any length of time, the area of the pump suction which will, under normally foreseeable circumstances, have water left in it, there was no scum line in that area.
You say neither of the spiders I have showed you have any type of failure. I would draw your attention to the first post on this thread; whilst I agree that there has been no catastrophic failure please concentrate your attention at the recesses close to the centre of the hub and note the thinning of the webs. In my book that is failure. Failure to stand up to the environment it is operating in. I agree the second spider shows very little sign of damage, the darker grey spots are corrosion pits; in my view insufficient to warrant changing the spider.
You say that my machines had water seal failures, I would be very interested in how you arrived at that conclusion. I do not believe I have mentioned seal failure(s) anywhere? Admittedly the bearings and seal on the first machine had failed but which failed first, the bearings or the seal, I have no idea, debating that is, to my mind, like determining which came first the chicken or the egg? I would lean towards the bearings failing first as, in my opinion, they are terribly overloaded and an argument could easily be made that they are designed to fail. The bottom line is however that I do not know and would seriously challenge the credibility of anyone who thought they did know for certain, have theories, yes, as I said I believe it more likely to be the bearings, someone else may well lean towards the seal failing first due to the build of ‘deposits’ on the shaft, that person is entitled to their opinion the same as I am entitled to mine. However to claim definitively that they know, in my book is not on. The bearings from the second machine were no where near as bad as those from the first and the seal showed no apparent signs of damage and there was no sign of water or products of corrosion in the bearing housing or on the bearings themselves so how you can say that one suffered a seal failure is beyond my comprehension.
To work on over 3,000 major appliances a year I suppose you must work in a shop as that is a very impressive number.
I agree, that in terms of what we are discussing, dry parts will not corrode, water is required but not free oxygen, as in the air we breathe. The water is required to hold the discussed corrosive chemicals in solution, as soon as all the water has evaporated the corrosion stops. Oxygen is present in the discussed chemicals.
At this point I would like to clarify/expand a point made in other posts. I have reason to believe, I am not yet sure, that it is only the powdered Oxi products that contain chemicals corrosive to aluminium, not the liquids; additionally Borax is corrosive to aluminium. With respect to the durability of aluminium in the presence of water.
In actual fact aluminium is quite durable in both fresh and seawater but it has to be kept electrically insulated, particularly when exposed to sea-water, from more noble substances (not all of them are metals).
I cannot help what every US seller of machines recommends or does not recommend. I can speculate as to why but that is all
All I can do is point out, what I see to be as, a situation needing change. Should you not agree that is your prerogative and right, and I will defend that right, even though I likely will not agree with you.
You have not yet answered the following questions from my post of 1st July 2010, I would appreciate it if you would oblige: -
‘When you have all the major manufacturers on your side what do you mean? Are they saying that bleach and other laundry aids with a pH in excess of 8.0 are not corroding the spiders? Should this be the case I would have thought they would have said as much to me when I raised the query with them, instead of the wall of silence that I am getting. Additionally have they given you any information as to why the spiders fail close to the hub, or why some brands seem more prone to this failure than others?’
Finally, have you read the penultimate paragraph of my first post? If affirmative, do you understand it?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards

 

[limey]

Seal And Bearing Failure

To hoover1100
Whilst I am not familiar with machines in the UK, other than as detailed above, and I do not think that really counts for very much. I would query the statement that it is the seal failure causing the bearing failure, I believe it is the other way round, at least most of the time.
Please see the third paragraph of my post above to combo52 for my reasoning. I do not think it is necessary to repeat it all again.
With respect to the ‘Oxi’ products please see my sixth paragraph above.
Regards