Spin Distribution

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I think they're all about the same, although our current Affinity FL seems to perform a much longer balancing act than our Duet did.

 

The only exception to this that I'm aware of is Speed Queen.  Per the comments posted by John L. and others, SQ FL machines don't mess around and launch into spin relatively quickly.
 
there can be a variety of factors as to why a machine may jump right into a spin, while others play around trying to find that sweet spot.....

you can that same load in ten different machines, and get ten different answers....

I do know that my Frigidaire Gallery, after I increased the water level, stopped having balancing issues, one or two reverses, and then takes off.....
 
I'm not really sure why they spend so much time on this. I've seen an he2t in action which spent probably 5-10 minutes re-balancing only to give up and have a shaky spin anyway. Isn't this the exact problem that supposedly damages the machine?
 
I have a Kenmore (LG) FL and if I had to say something I disliked about it I think it would be how it spins. There's just no rhyme or reason. I've had a load full of denim jeans go into spin relatively quickly while whites (t-shirts, towels and sheets) makes the machine hesitant into spinning. Sometimes it will distribute, ramp up and spin only to stop and start over. It doesn't bother me or my wife a lot, it's just a minor annoyance.

Oh, my other small annoyance would be when it fills. Rapid on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off, on for a short few seconds, off again and then it fills. Don't know why it does this instead of a straight fill. Within a week of getting the FL, I went and bought hammer arrestors.
 
Our Duet did the on/off fill too.  They marketed it as a "catalyst" wash system where the contents were tumbled in a super concentrated solution that became diluted as the on/off filling sequence continued.

 

Our Affinity seems to use the spin bursts as a way to lighten the load and facilitate balancing in advance of a longer spin.  Sometimes though, it can't even balance well enough to do a burst spin and will give up and start filling for the next sequence.  Only in extreme cases does it give up on attempting a final spin and shut off without executing one.  It has only done that a few times in the nine years we've had it, and it was always when washing throw rugs which now are laundered in the trusty Maytag A712 with the Gentle/Fast wash and spin options selected.
 
Owning a WP duet WFW72 (which i have now left behind) and I can say, on most loads, it balances very quickly and would do it in seconds. And other times it would go into a more in depth balancing protocol. Where the tub would go back and forth like seen in the video, this is very helpful for untangling items. On a certain comforter, which was thin, but got heavy with water, it would tangle during the balancing phase and cause the tub to bang. The washer would shut off and the tub would rotate in each direction (as in the video) for a few spins, then continue balancing and then took off. This method works wonders for untangling articles at a important point in the cycle.
 
And on the other hand, Samsung FL's are incredibly fussy when it comes to balancing. But they also only turn in one direction when it comes to balancing. If one direction fails, then the tub turns in the opposite direction and repeats until a balance it found, which most of the time, can't manage to do it right on its first attempt.

http://https//youtu.be/RzF-tkJzYEw?t=38m37s
 
Re:reply #4

I had an LG 3170 that did just what you are describing. But mine sometimes took 3 hrs to complete a load with this pointless hunt for a sweet spot to spin. And I also needed to get water hammer arrestors.

This burst filling process is a waste of time too. I guess its LG’s attempt to minimize water usage, but to me its a waste of time. You’re going to use the water anyway, why not just let the machine add the required amt. all at once. If the machine senses the need for additional water, it can always add some more, but add the majority of the needed water at the beginning.

I couldn’t even use the heavy soil level on the cotton cycle. It literally would tumble for 30 mins. with the center of the load not even damp, let alone wet, then as if an after thought in the last 5 mins. it would fill with enough water to finally wet the load, but trust me, there was no splashing going on. I used it this way for 15 mos. before I said enough is enough and got rid of it.

I like FL washers, but until they start to operate more closely to the way they used to I’m not interested in owning another new FL.
Eddie
 
Hans, what you just said gave me a thought, what if some manufacturer of FL machines were to take a cue from the old WP/KM combos in the '60s and incorporate BOTH a suspension and the water ballast balancing system they used.

Instead of waiting forever for the load to be perfectly balanced, balance the tub. With a suspension that WP couldn't have because of Bendix's patents, almost all vibration would be mitigated and a modern 1200 RPM speed should be attainable.

With modern tech water ballasting wouldn't be too hard to execute. It would get rid of this drawn out balancing charade that most modern machines do. The best ideas of old combined.
 
The number one thing I truly abhor about modern design washers is the time they waste "balancing" themselves. It's just unbelievably aggravating to sit there and watch it "fail" to go into spin several times, and if the suspension is getting worn or it's an unusual load it could sit there all god damn day trying to balance itself. When I got my SQ I practically popped open a bottle of champagne to celebrate that when it goes into spin it goes into spin and that's it.
 
Having recently just been under the bonnet so to speak of my OKO-Lavamat you begin to understand the palaver around spin distribution.

Compared to the Miele the AEG (and one assumes this goes for many others) are literally "toys". There is simply not a lot to them structurally so that it won't take much unbalanced spinning to wear things out.

Miele washer of old and even new are substantial pieces of kit. Tub suspended by four heavy springs. Automobile grade shock absorbers, the famous cast iron cradle, and heavy duty bearings/seals add up to a washing machine that is near commercial quality. As such Miele washers are known for being able to spin under even the most challenging loads. It may not like it, and or one shouldn't allow things to go on long enough the washer bashes itself to bits, but there you are.

Everyone else relies more upon avoiding even moderate to perhaps light unbalanced loads it seems. Thus reducing strain, wear and tear.
 
The maddening thing about the Duet I had was that it might balance beautifully and ramp up to spin, but the water coming out of the fabrics would trip the flood switch which shut down everything but the pump which was too weak to handle the large volume of water as it was spun out. Then it struggled to rebalance everything that had fallen from the tub walls. It was a question of if there were misfeasance, malfeasance or no feasance in designing the machine. If a load were balanced, the machine could have been designed so that the tub could maintain a distribution speed during the pump-out and resume spinning. I like the SQ's and Miele's approaches to distribution for spinning. The more sophisticated variable speed motor in the W1986 has a feed back loop that slows it if there is a huge amount of water being spun out of the load or if the load is not well distributed. It will continue at a lower speed and gradually accelerate as the situation improves. Very often a not-well-distributed load lightens greatly as the water is spun out at slower speeds and can continue on to spin a full speed. I still remember the drama of the Milnors that instantly shifted up to distribution speed before opening the drain valve and how evenly distributed the load was for spin. I wish home machines could have done that.
 
cabrio's method...

noticed my '10 VMW will stop,refill and run an extra rinse if it cannot balance-this is the only way this He washplate machine can redistribute...Seems to try two extra rinse cycles and if that doesn't do it,runs a lower RPM spin,perhaps ~500 RPM :)
 
Brendon

I used to have one of these 10’ Cabrios, and mine would refill over and over and over again attempting to balance itself so it could complete the rinse portion of the cycle. If I didn’t keep an eye on it this would have gone on forever. The load that always caused a problem was 2 bath towels, 2 hand towels, about a dozen washclothes and 2 or 3 pairs of jeans, all evenly distributed on loading, but the Cabrio would unfailingly manage to unbalance this type of load.

I never had this kind of experience before with any other washer. This machine didn’t last too long in our home, too much babysitting for me for a washer that was supposed to be automatic.
Eddie[this post was last edited: 12/20/2017-14:21]
 
TL Redistribution

Now if they would only beef up the suspension a little there wouldn't be this much trouble on HE TL machines. I'll never understand why they choose to have that free moving basket other than cost cuts.
 
“Now if they would only beef up the suspension a little there wouldn't be this much trouble on HE TL machines. “

I’m happy to say that my Maytag MVWC415EW has never had a problem balancing any load, with the exception of one time when I washed the Rubbermaid tub mat with the shower curtain, liner and bathmat. I stopped it, redistributed the load, pushed start and everything was A-OK.

Maybe its the center post of the agipeller that helps to keep the load balanced, I don’t know why it always goes into a spin with no balancing problems, but I’m not going to question it, I’ll just appreciate it.
Eddie
 
Thank goodness for spin dryers, that's what I say

For loads one knows from experience the Miele won't like, simply cancel all interim and final spins, then chuck wash into spin dryer.

Tend to do this when washing smaller loads and or things that will cause the machine have large drum movements. Suppose could leave Big Bertha to sort things out on her own, and often she does to some extent. But again after putting >$500 between new shock absorbers and drum suspension (springs), this washer must last several more years to get ROI.

For large bulky items like blankets it is either off to laundromat or haul out the Maytag wringer.
 
Reply #16

Interesting.

My Panasonic was washing a load of 4 bathtowels, 2 handtowels, 3 cotton t-shirts, and about 6 pairs of socks on the Cottons 60 deg with 1600rpm spin. Not stuffed full, but about three-quarters of the drum.

The spins between the rinses never happened, extra rinses were inserted.

The final spin was nowhere near the set 1600rpm - it seemed locked about 1000rpm.

When the machine finished, I wasn't happy with the spin efficiency. I reset to spin at 1600rpm - same result, reduced speed. I repeated it again. Again the same result.

Today, I washed a half-load of a pair of jeans, various t-shirts and underwear. The machine performed a fast spin quite quickly.

My machine seems quite incapable of handling a full load of cottons at the specified speeds. I'm not impressed.
 
Here's the problem.

Force is mass times acceleration. Centripetal acceleration is equal to v<sup>2</sup>/r (v=speed, r=radius)* so there's your problem right there: We're talking one heck of a lot of energy to go from a lower spin to a higher spin.

Never mind the enormous amount of energy the object being spun has even at a very slow spin.

Manufacturers can either dimension the machine to handle the tremendous structural load caused by an out of balance spin or use logic to prevent the machine being loaded beyond what a cheap structure can handle.

How they find the right combination between structural components, logic, sensors, anti-vibration devices is all about profit and loss.

Ancient belt drive Whirlpool washers nearly never went out of balance - their mass compensated for just about anything. Ditto the 1970s AEG 800U/min and today's Miele washers. Which also use better logic and sensors.

Pay more, get more. Pay less, get less.

Unfortunately, the manufacturers are locked into a mentality of pay more, get less when it comes to beefing up their machines to handle the spin speeds they're promising.

 

*Before we get into another hysterical centrifugal/centripedal, velocity/ acceleration/speed nonsense discussion, just know that I could not care less and we all played that stupid game 14 years ago. Go look in the archives if you're feeling that 'a'-retentive. The rest of us just want to have some fun.
 
"manufacturers' mentality of pay more, get less"

Yes, that seems to be the case these days - right across the board. Everything is flimsily made.
 
Well my Maytag Centennial HE TL wasn’t an expensive washer and as far as spinning and balancing dependably it performs just like a washer from the old days before so many became particular about performing these essential functions.

So I don’t neccesarily agree that it is all about how much you spend. The load that I described as always having problems spinning in my 10’ Cabrio wasn’t a large or especially heavy load, and no other washer that I’d owned in the past ever had problems with the same kind of load.

All I do know is that I’m very pleased with this Maytag. I hope that I can get many years of good, trouble free service from it, time will tell. Its now over a year old, and in that year zero problems, so thats a good sign already.

Here is a full load of colors that I washed this morning and just finished folding:

2 pairs of mens jeans
4 crewneck sweat shirts
1 short sleeve tee shirt
1 heavyweight long sleeve tee shirt
7 pairs of black socks
1 handkerchief
14 cotton dinner napkins
2 placemats

This load was washed on heavy soil, deep water wash, hot water and it finished in 50 mins.
Eddie[this post was last edited: 12/21/2017-13:36]

ea56-2017122110270909391_1.jpg
 
Panasonic

This is one of many reasons I got rid of my Panasonic FL machine - the painful distribution. Frustratingly, it would be perfectly balanced or so it seemed to me, and then it would go into a further distribution and mess it all up again so off it went into another 10 minutes of distribution. I can see that from a wear and tear point of view with a larger load at a high spin speed (mine was 1400rpm) it was protecting the machine and I do understand the logic but as a user, my goodness it was irritating.

I replaced it with the same machine that the Panasonic replaced, a Bosch WFF2000. When it spins at 1000rpm it is as stable and as solid as a rock.
 
Oh, some machines do get it right

I had a neighbour in Munich who had an ancient Candy. One of those which used the variable pulley arrangement. She never had trouble with it, apart from replacing the belt every few years (a result of the mechanical load 'sensing' system). Those springs and shocks and variable pully Candy washers were the perfect balance between cost and effect.

I'm overjoyed that Whirlpool has got it right in their Maytags. Presumably the same system will now work it's way down the price-range until even Roper/Estate/Kirkland do the same.
 
Panasonic

It is so frustrating, it's beyond belief! A 10 min spin turns into 30 mins.

The previous machine was also a Panasonic - but with a tilted drum. Usually, the laundry fell towards the back of the drum and would get into balance very quickly - so a 10 minute spin was just that - 10 minutes.

This current heap is needing a bomb under it.
 
Panasonic

Rolls Rapide, what model Panasonic do you have now? Mine was a NA-147VB5. I believe they were made by Vestel. Amongst the other things that irritated me about it were:

The length of cycles
Timed fill
Pointless cool down at the end of a hot wash
2 rinses as standard
Pathetically useless wool cycle that was less effective than hand washing
Inability to spin single hand-washed items due to sensitive distribution
And I grew to loathe the smoked plastic door covering

On the plus side, when it did get around to a high speed spin it was VERY good and it was extremely quiet. It was highly effective at stain removal and once the wash was over you could open the door immediately. One might think that these things might negate the others but not for me.
 
Panasonic

I've currently got the NA-168XR1. Made in Slovenia, by Gorenje.

My peeves of my machine:

Length of cycles is bloody awful - no wonder the fabrics wear out. The time recalculations are just weird. For example, a small load flashed up as 1hr 50 at the start of the programme, and I presumed it would reduce as the time went on. Nope, ten minutes later it re-adjusted to 2hrs.

Filling time isn't bad, it does top up as it goes.

Rinsing: virtually every load, interim spins are deemed unattainable, so extra rinses are inserted instead. I'm sure that on at least one occasion it did 5 rinses! And in most cases seems to do 3 or 4 rinses.

That Woollens programme is thoroughly useless - virtually no turnover. If it wasn't for the pumped jetsystem, the garments would still be dry. And whoever heard of spinning woollens at 500rpm? Hoover of the 1980s had the right balance of woollen agitation and 800rpm spin.

Spinning is completely crap as previously mentioned.

I have a conventional clear see-through glass door, but the champagne matt plastic door trim looks decidedly underwhelming.

The drum metal is very thin and tinny - it rings like a bell when knocked.

I don't hold out much hope for the drum bearings. Several times, at the end of the cycle when unloading clothes, as I rotated the drum, I've felt a slight vibration and felt and heard a faint 'clunk'.

The old tilted drum Panasonic was NA-16VX1, made in China. It was a smoked-door machine, with a weird plastic cover over the drum bolts (inside the drum itself). The 'fresh-water' spray jet on it, was dire to say the least. Woollens was crap. But at least that machine span well when commanded.
 
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