Steam Heat

[volvoguy87]

This is an offshoot of another Super Forum thread.

To recap: the discussion started with a mention of Mr. Dan Holohan and his website www.heatinghelp.com. He has also written several books including the following:

The Lost Art of Steam Heating

A Pocketful of Steam Problems (With Solutions),

We've Got Steam Heat (an Owner's Guide to Peaceful Coexistence),

Greening Steam: How to Take 19th Century Heating Systems into the 21st Century.

You would expect it to be dry reading, but Dan's style of writing and humor make his books a pleasure to read. When I got Greening Steam, I couldn't put it down. I hadn't been that absorbed into a book since I read Harry Potter.

Bear in mind, I grew up in Manassas, VA in the outer suburbs of Washington, DC and had never seen steam heating until relatively recently. After reading Dan's books, joining the wall at heatinghelp.com, and enlisting the help of one of the reputable local contractors on the website's "Find a Contractor" section, I was able to take a very grumpy 1926 1-pipe steam system and make it silent, better performing, and a joy to live with.

A few things to know about steam heat:

If it clanks, bangs, hisses, or spits; something is wrong with it. It needs to be repaired / maintained. Until it is fixed, it will continue to be loud and will burn more fuel than necessary.

The lower the pressure, the better it will function.

Where there is air, steam will not go. Translation: Vent the air from the system effectively so the steam can work its magic.

There is no substitute for proper near-boiler piping.

On 1-pipe steam, the radiator valves must be either full open or closed. Throttling the valve (opening it part way) will cause banging, spitting, and other problems. To regulate the temperature output, change the air vent.

Never underestimate the importance of venting the steam mains. Vent them as fast as humanly possible, but vent them such that they fill with steam at the same time. (Where I am, there are 2 mains, one is 2X the volume of the other. The bigger one needs to be vented at 2X the speed of the smaller one).

In one of the books (The Lost Art of Steam Heating I think), I read about how 1-pipe steam heat was installed in rehabilitated housing New York City in the 1980s. This was done because the parts have a low scrap value (so people wouldn't steam materials for scrapping), it's simple to maintain, and durable as a tank. These systems were installed with modern venting theory and performed silently, efficiently, and generally exceeded expectations. Believe it or not, you can get new or salvage radiators today and have steam heat installed if you want. And yes, I'll gladly take a brand new 1-pipe system thankyouverymuch!

If you remove a radiator, I will personally hunt you down and make you regret that action. (You can tell I have as much respect and admiration for radiators as I do for a Frigidaire WCI-58.)

Just because the system may be a century old is no excuse for it to function in any fashion short of perfection. Also, steam can (and should) be EXTREMELY energy efficient. It's easy to do and relatively cheap as well.

I love Dan's motto: "A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me."

Happy Steaming,
Dave

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[toggleswitch]

.
Fascinating to me that steam was the perfect solution to a totally non-electric central heating system that works amazingly well with sold fuels(wood, coal) where a great amount of heat-input is needed at first and much less-so later.

99 44/100% (wll maybe not exactly!) of NYC's (older) residental heating systems are steam based; now fuel-oil and gas-fired. They were intended to cosolidate many small heaters, flames and flues per amparmtent to basically one for convenience and safety, to one per building!

This is probably why this area still favors mostly hydronically (hot-water) heated homes.

The thing about steam heat is that in the old days (when pilot-light existed en-masse) one could have a gas-fired milivolt system and have heat (and maybe hot water) in a blackout! Not so much anymore that code requres redundant(two) gas cut-off solenoid valves and no more pilot lights!

When I bought my house (built in 1946) it had a way out-of-tune steam heating sytesm. Once I tweaked that baby, she ran fine! BTW, thermostat's heat-anticpators were first intended for/needed for steam systems. They purposely generated heat in the thermnostst to shut it off quicker. Residual steam and heat from the thermal mass (read: steel and iron; pipe and radiators) finished the job to bring the room to temeperature. It is intended to minimize (uncomfortable) temperature swings. In the old days, a good mercury low-voltage thermostat (read: Honeywell brand) could limit temperature swings/variations to 1/2*F (1/4 *C) and a line-voltage thermostat to between 3*F and 5*F (1.5 to 2.5*C +/-).

Comparing my old oil-fired steam heating system to a modern heat-pump, I was amazed at how many heating cycles are needed with a modern heat pump, in that it has no thermal mass (Read: doesnt slowly give off heat after turned off)!

Hot-water heating systems are much quieter, more even and better suited for spring and fall when less intense heating is needed. But the sounds of the air-vent valve on a one-pipe steam system hissing on a freezing cold night are extremely comforting! [this post was last edited: 11/4/2010-23:51]

 

[lordkenmore]

When I was small, we lived in a house with either hot water or steam heat. I have no idea which--all I know was that there were radiators. Even years after leaving that house, my mother missed the heating system. The house was more comfortable in winter. Mainly, she thought, because it had a more steady heat, with some heat being given off even when the system wasn't actively heating.

With forced air systems, I've noticed there is a tendency for feast-and-famine cycle. How bad depends on the particular system. This may be imagination, but I've been in houses where the furnace is running, and it feels like I'm broiling. The furnace shuts down, and almost immediately I feel like I've swung to the freeze end of the spectrum. (I realize that forced air systems have evolved with all sorts of modern tricks, like different heating levels, etc. But this sort of system has never turned up any place I've lived.)

 

[kenmore700bill]

I am living in the house I was born in in North Jersey, and still maintained the Steam Heat unit. I physically had the Furnace changed about 20 years ago then last year put in an Electronic Oil Burner unit and ended up saving a bundle of money last year. You can set the that thermostat for 66 or 68 when all is said and done the house is actually well over 70 degrees because of the Radiatiators staying hot. My Basement has or radiators just the Steam pipw and the return and that keeps it nice and toastie down there. Dave is Correct you do need to maintain these furnaces to keep them at peak performance. The only issue I had was the noise of the flame hitting the wall of the furnace to make the heat but thsi new Electronic Burner Unit appears to have quieted it down alot.
I can tell you this I have a summer home at the Jersey shore and there is the Gas Forced Hot air heat and that is horrible no consistant temparature in and of the rooms. The bedrooms are always hot and the livingroom and dining area are alwasy cooler a few degrees.
So if i had a choice Steam woudl be it...
The only good thing about the Forced Hot Air system is the Central air in the summer time..
Bill

 

[dj-gabriele]

I've never ever seen a single pipe steam radiator, even less a full scale system! It's a neat idea but the efficiency is quite lower than modern condensing boilers (or heat pump if one wants electric) with a return temperature of only 30-40°C or less and underfloor heating.
I guess that if one had such an old system and replaced it, the return of investment would be very quick in a cold weather area, at least with the prices I'm used to!

My building was fitted with underfloor heating in the 70s, after the energy crysis, when it was built and it never needed replacing or repairing and it's still running strong under the parquet in this very moment

 

[norgeway]

In my younger days!!!!

I worked for a heating contractor, I have serviced every type heating system and NOTHING is as comfortable as steam or hot water, my hometown was full of General Electric boilers which were the most energy efficient oil burners out there,they were also fairly complicated, but I learned from a real expert on the older systems,there were also several houses in Lenoir with radiant floor heat, also using the GE boilers,this was a fantastic system, unless you have seen a GE in action you cant imagine how state of the art it really was, the burner assembly sat on TOP of the boiler and the flame was projected down from the top,it was and to me still is the finest boiler ever built, and in the 50s the efficency rating was over 80, while most systems then were 60 or 70 percent.

 

[mayguy]

Hot water/steam heat is the best. When we were looking for houses, I was trying to shot for hot water heat, but didn't have much luck. :-(

We got this house, and the old furnace we had in here was '68 Chrysler AirTemp. We were roasted out of the family room downstairs, and freezing out of our bedrooms. I did not like it, and was tempted to rip it out and do hot water, but I wanted to keep the Central Air. We got a two stage Trane XV90 furnace with a two stage stat, and comfort is great cuz the furnace has a long run time, and no "swing" in temp.

I've heard/read people talking about having Modulating furnace like Rheem has, and they said feels like have hot water heat again.

Also, if the system is oversized, it will over heat the space quicker, and long "down time", and that where we feel the discomfort.

Our old furnace as 112k now down to a 60k furnace.

 

[joe_in_philly]

I love my gas hot water heating system - it is silent and the gradual, consistant heat feels better to me than forced air heat. I use a setback thermostat, and had to make adjustments for the nature of radiator heating - such as set the system to start heating earlier and to turn down earlier as the radiators take a while to warm up and keep warming the house after the boiler turns off.

 

[lordkenmore]

I think wood stoves are the heating system I prefer among all the systems I have had real experience with. The comfort level is considerably higher--for me, at least--than forced air. Although, this is strictly in comparison with forced air (off or on).

A plus to wood heat: operation can be free if one has wood available. (A neighbor gets by entirely with wood cut on his and his family's property.)

Of course, it takes more work, and to make the system work well probably care and some experience. (I can fire up a wood stove to survive a power failure, or provide some additional heat for an evening. But I don't delude myself thinking I quite have what it takes to get the most efficient use out of a wood stove.)

 

[petek]

Love the hot water heating in our house. Like everyones said the heat is very even minus those temperature swings plus it's quiet. The downside I guess if you want to call it that is that you do have to maintain it moreso than a fag system (one for Toggles to decipher).

Last month I figured was time to make sure it was ready for the season so I upped the thermostat,,gas ignites and she starts heating the tank... after about 20 minutes I go downstairs to find its shut down.. try again, same thing.. Circulating pump isn't kicking in. Check the electrical box,,alls ok.. hmmmmm.
So I call the heating contractor in.. he's following the wiring from the circ pump way over to the other end of the room by the entrance door where I'm standing.. says to me.. is that switch up there turned on.. Above the door coming into the furnace room was an unmarked light switch I never knew what it was for.. flip it up.. on comes the circ pump... groan, well at least now I know what that switch was for up there. I must have been wondering one day what it was.. flipped it and never thought about it again.. LOL

Regardless he checked the system out again, topped it up etc and it's running perfectly again in its 53rd year.

The other thing I like about it is that the boiler downstairs in the furnace/workshop is like a giant heat sink.. the basement is always toasty warm in the winter unlike basements with forced air.

 

[whirlcool]

If it clanks, bangs, hisses, or spits; something is wrong with it.

I lived in an apartment in Chicago in the mid 70's that had steam heat. It was one of those older "3 flat" buildings. It had steam heat and had a repertoire of sounds that I can't even begin to describe. The place was either like a freezer or an oven.

The system talked to you. Different sounds meant different things. If it had a small draining type of hiss, that meant you were soon going to get cold (usually at night). If it made a clanging or boiling type of sound better open the windows you were about to be baked.

The worst days were those below zero days where the sun is shining brightly. Then it would alternate between cold and hot and it would be clanking away in discontent.

I asked the landlord if there was anything he could do about it, and he said that the system is old and he's not charging enough rent to replace it. So get used to it.

 

[mattl]

I have to disagree to some extent about forced air heating. Up until about 8 years ago I'd agree, but things have changed quite a bit. I had our system updated with a 98% efficient unit and I LOVE it.

It uses CAC -- Continuous Air Circulation-- and you have no idea if and when it's heating. There are no hot or cold spots in the house, no drafty areas, it's just perfectly comfortable. The blower runs at a very low speed all the time, hence the "continuous" in the term, and the burners generally come on at a fraction of their full output when heat is called for. There is no blast of hot air, ever. On really cold days, say -10 to -20 F. the second stage will kick in and then the blower ramps up speed and you are more aware of it running, or for example at night I have it set at 60 degrees and in the morning I ramp it up to 68, then the second stage comes on and fairly rapidly warms the house up. I hadn't been doing that when my dad was around, we kept it a 73 all the time and it was totally unnoticeable.

This is a large house, close to 4000 sq ft. and we've had 2 furnaces prior to this. The first was undersized and ran quite often at a high blower speed. We replaced that with a monster of an over sized furnace, got a great deal on it, and still had issues. Had a pro come out and do a study and he sized the unit correctly, it's only 90K BTUs at it peak (the monster was 150K...)but the house is now totally comfortable.

At this point I'd never have anything else!

 

[launderess]

Old Apartment Buildings and Boilers

New York City has quite a few old apartment, co-op, and so forth buildings that have their original boilers. Most were built to burn coal and later retro fitted to oil. There lies the rub.

NYC, especially some very posh parts of Manhattan have some of the most polluted air because of soot. The stuff comes from the "bunker fuel" type heating oil (grade #4 or whatever the lowest grade is), which is basically the sludge left over from when all other types of petrol have been distilled.

This sort of oil was also used to power steam locomotives and ships, hence the name "bunker fuel", but both cases now burn diesel. Because of it's low market value this sort of heating oil is cheap and that is the reason landlords/building owners love it. It is however the worst thing for air quality because it does not burn cleanly at all.

Some buildings have fitted their burners to burn both gas and heating oil, thus switch between the two depending upon temperature versus cost. Still a majority of buildings burn only the dreaded heating oil.

NYC is trying to force buildings to upgrade their boilers, but the cost would be huge, and landlords/building owners either don't want to spend the funds, or threaten to pass the costs onto tenants.

What one didn't know is that heating oil #4 (bunker fuel) is apparently so thick it will not flow. It requires a whole system of heaters, pumps and so forth to move from a tank to make it to the nozzle.

Those promoting conversion to natural gas tell building owners they could cut cost because such "extras" as above aren't required with such a system.

 

[suburbanmd]

Multiple-dwelling heat-timer steam heat is the worst

OK, having no heat is the worst, but roast-or-freeze heating like Whirlcool described is next. There is a solution, though: A thermostatic radiator valve like shown in the link below. I installed these on my radiators in a Bronx apartment in the 1980's. Mine had the dial on the wall, not on the valve. Once I found the sweet spot on the dial, we had nice, even heat.

http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/96/960509.html

 

[whirlcool]

I wish those would have been in existence back when I lived in that old building. I did like the place, it was in a good neighborhood and the landlord kept it up nicely. Those 3 flat apts were huge. Each apt was an entire floor.
That heating system was so noisy some nights it would wake you up. The pipes would bang, the radiators would creak and hiss, you never knew what was coming next.
Haven't been in an apt with steam heat since. Now that I think of it, it's kind of a novelty.

 

[miele_ge]

look at these beauties!

We recently replaced our steam system with a hydro air system and have these beautiful radiators that we don't know what to do with. They were sandblasted and powder coated about 10 years ago and are in great condition.

If anyone can use them, please contact me. We just want to find them a good home and not scrap them,

We are located in SW Connecticut.

 

[miele_ge]

we have other sizes too

if any interest, please let me know. We can provide exact measurements if you need them.

 

[whirlcool]

Wow, those radiators are done perfectly. Most of the ones I have encountered have layers and layers of paint on them!

 

[volvoguy87]

Radiators.

I'll write some more once I get back home (I'm visiting a friend right now).

A system's efficiency isn't merely the efficiency of the heat source (boiler, furnace, etc.). It's the whole system! It's true that right now, steam boilers max out around 87% efficiency and gas furnaces can be 10% higher. Look at the rest of the system! Steam systems distribute the heat through a network of usually well-insulated pipes. Forced air ductwork is rarely insulated, and it usually leaks a great deal too. The furnace might be very efficient, but the system is abysmal.

I'll take steam radiators any day. The boiler may be lower-efficiency, but the system efficiency is surprisingly high. Also, steam should be dead-silent, including 1-pipe steam. A thermostatic radiator vent eliminates hot spots, good venting eliminates cold-spots, and any clanks, bangs, or hisses indicate a problem. Steam has few moving parts and has unmatched long-term durability. It's easy to put a steam system in perfect working order (surprisingly cheap too) and well worth the effort in terms of piece and quiet and fuel efficiency.

As for the now-surplus radiators, I'll see what I can do. I'll write more when I get home,
Dave