STPP for the washer

[panthera]

Before this gets ridiculous

1) STPP is a much better laundry cleaner than TSP in hard water - it chelates the minerals which interfere with cleaning. No question. That's why I use it.

2) STPP deteriorates quickly if not properly stored - it's on every data sheet, we don't need to pretend it doesn't.

3) If we're now going to pretend TSP doesn't clean and that alkaline conditions are bad for laundry then we might as well just give up.

 

Nobody is saying STPP isn't wonderful - it is. I use it.

BUT - TSP together with a good enzymatic laundry detergent and hot water cleans really well, especially greasy/oily stains.

 

Come on folks, are we really going to pretend it doesn't? Are we really going to pretend that one should spend the money on STPP without trying TSP first? That TSP doesn't clean?

 

Seriously? 

 

 

 

[stan]

I don't doubt

That TSP cleans. Like I said I've used it as a paint prep. And made the mistake of not wearing gloves and burnt the hell out of my hands. So I know it cuts grease. The red burnt hands showed up the day after I used it.

Panthera, how much TSP do u use for laundry use

 

[panthera]

Stan,

Here's my recipe for dirty clothes:

1/2 cup TSP

145F hot water

1/2 cup Arm&Hammer HE with enzymes

22 minute soak, 14 minute agitation

2 real rinses in a 42 year old Maytag

It never fails.

STPP, 4T instead of 1/2 cup.

 

[stan]

Are you

Able to do warm rinses with ur Maytag?

 

[panthera]

Back then, yup

We've a couple, I'm using an A702 (the following year it had an extra rinse option, I just reset the dial on this one).

Lovely machine. Never had to do any work on it.

Sometimes I use a '67 Filter-Flo, especially when there's dog hair.

 

[earthling177]

OK,

I just bought a small pail (forgot if it's 5 or 10 lbs) of Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) from the Chemistry Store a few months ago.

It came in the sealed plastic pail. I transferred some to a small ziploc bag.

Since day 1, it has been a smooth flowing white powder that transforms into a hard rock as soon as it touches water. Cold, warm, hot, it does not matter. It takes a looong time and a lot of agitation for it to dissolve.

This has not been my experience with previous water softeners.

For the record, my water is naturally soft (0-4 grains) *most* of the year it can reach 6-8 grains in some parts of winter when the city uses water from other sources.

So yes, in my experience, STPP came to me "pre-stale", lets say.

Color me not so happy.

I'm also wondering if the majority of people who are the target market for this (traditional agitator toploaders) even notice, given that they dump the powder into the washer with other stuff, dum the clothes on top, and close the lid.

And by that I mean people in general, not folks here who like to watch the entire cycle.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.

 

[mamapinky]

Prior to The Dafna General Store closing their store I always ordered my STPP from them than myself along with a bunch of others over on Gardenweb noticed this STPP not disolving, turning to hard clumps even in hot water. Dafna sent new bags...same thing...I ordered a small bag from the Chem store..same thing...I picked up a small bag from Pittsburgh Spice..same thing.. I haven't a clue why.

 

[stan]

Get my STPP

From Soap Goods, 4lb container with screw on lid.. No problem.
I only have Top Load machines, so I alway pre-dissolve any powdered substance including powdered detergent in hot water before adding. The STPP is the quickest to de solve.

 

[kb0nes]

Paulo,

That is odd, I bought the exact same container from Chemistry Store. When I dummped the shot of powder into standing water in my top loader it was dissolved before it hit the bottom if of the basket. I left mine in the pail and slowly used it over the course of about a year. Never experienced anything like you describe... The powder was always free flowing as you mention and there was never any caking or issues with it dissolving. Strange

 

[sudsmaster]

STPP degredation:

I guess you (Panth) need to define "proper storage", and "quickly".

Like I said before, if the STPP is kept dry and out of the heat, it will last in powder form for years. I know this from personal experience.

Now, if you leave a cardboard box of it open under the kitchen sink next to damp garbage, yeah, it might degrade. Just like powder DW detergents will as well.

But keep it dry and room temp or lower, it doesn't "degrade quickly". At least not in my book.

 

[sudsmaster]

STPP that is lumpy and won't dissolve?

Most likely old stock that was not properly stored. It's absorbed moisture.

It might still work well enough. One could test its effectiveness by mixing it with warm or hot hard water in a glass jar, and noting if there's any visible precipitate. If none, then it's good to go.

As a control, do the same with a precipitating water softener like washing soda or TSP. If you see a precipitate with those ( and you should with hard water ), then you know your test regimen is good.

Don't have hard water? I suppose one could approximate it by mixing tap water with calcium cloride and magnesium sulfate.

Next question.

 

[panthera]

There are actual studies on the subject

And they come to these conclusions:

1) At 0°C you can store STPP in water and it remains STPP.

2) At 20ºC the disappearance of STPP in water follows first order kinetics.

I'm not posting all the conditions, methodologies, etc. so if you want them, do the research yourself - but:

Worst case (that open cardboard box next to the disgusting garbage pail under the wet, dripping sink) it will have, thanks to the exponential increase in degradation, all turned into something else as fast as I keep saying it will. A few weeks and it's basically TSP.

I stopped posting links when I realized people don't believe two plus two is four when they don't want to, but here's one site where a study may be bought - first page is free. It's enough for those who do actually believe 2 + 2 = 4.

All the other studies I have found come to the same conclusion.

 

So, yes, if your STPP was always properly stored and you were really cautious with it then you can keep it for quite a while. Just, from everything I've read around here and elsewhere, if you've kept that 5 Kilo bag around for a few years anywhere but in the Arizona dessert - congratulations, you've been using TSP. Not to worry, though - it's a very good cleaner. So good, in fact, until a few decades ago it was the reason we had such clean clothes despite US washers having had such short cycles.

 

And, yes, since this seems to be vraiment important, TSP doesn't chelate hard water minerals out like STPP does. I love STPP, use it all the time - but dislike people pretending 2+2 doesn't = 4 just 'cause they don't like me.

 

Sheesh. I'd put any current detergent with the addition of TSP up against one without and guarantee the addition would improve the removal of body oils and cooking/automotive oils noticeably. 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/i360018a001

 

[mamapinky]

Panthera, I have used better part of a 20 pound bag of STPP that took some work to disolve...so this could have decomposed into TSP if I'm reading you correctly...well I gotta say my clothes were wonderfully clean, fresh, and soft...LOL.....Cheryl

 

[sudsmaster]

Well, Panth, I still have a couple of 50 lb sacks of STPP I bought about 15 years ago - kept relatively cool and dry in plastic bins.

As I said earlier, I have a hard water well and I can easily test the ability of the STPP I have left to see if it still keeps hard water minerals suspended and not precipitated. It's a qualitative measurement, but I think a fairly good indication of STPP's chelating and complexing capability (forming chelated complexes with hard water minerals is what gives STPP its magic powers).

I have no argument that storing STPP wet is a very bad idea. I just don't buy, without some solid evidence, that storing it dry is going to result in turning it to TSP.

 

[gyrafoam]

I've had mine for years, slowly using it up. I dumped it into a tub with a lid when I got it from the Chemistry Store a few years ago. It's not lumpy, dissolves immediately and does a good job.

On the other hand, I have become used to having a great detergent with the Phosphate already built-in. Uses only 1/2 cup per full top-load, makes NO suds, smells just like the old "Lemon Fresh FAB". And is cheaper to use per load than granular tide.

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[panthera]

Rich,

If anybody could store it properly, you are the type who could. The fact that nearly everyone else on the planet does not is the whole reason Automatic Detergent boxes containing the stuff warned not to keep it around too long, the whole reason commercial cleaners with it warn about proper storage.

Come on, you're just being combative out of personal reasons. I've provide the scientific basis for my assertions, it's silly to mix personal feelings with fact. 

 

STPP has wonderful cleaning abilities, I use it. But - this 'TSP' is of no value as a laundry/dish cleanser is just plain wrong. I've never had the problems with it which are theoretically possible. Water chemistry plays a role in that. So does accepting that STPP doesn't remain STPP for long unless stored with great care.