Suds in the rinse water...

[state-line]

OK, laundry experts, what advice can you give on this one? While adding fabric softener to the rise water clears out excessive suds, I'm not able to use fabric softener because it reacts to my skin. I'm using white vinegar in the rinse, but it doesn't clear out the suds from the wash cycle. I've found that this new 2x Liquid Tide is the worst for excessive rinse-water suds. Does anyone out there have a recommendation for what I can do to get rid of these suds other than using fabric softener?

 

[toggleswitch]

Have you tried this garb-ah-ge?

Supermarket brand in a 1 gallon (3.78L)jug. Not waxy. No buildup. Mild fragrance. Available in PANK flavor as well as lemon (shown). Directions say use 1 to 2 oz (1/8 to 1/4 cup). In the old days it said to use 1/3 cup in a top-loader.

Perhaps a wash with this softener followed by an addtional vinegar rinse would help you. The acidity of the vinegar should help chemically neutralize detergents, bleach and this softener.

Of course a final rinse without any chemicals at all is not a bad idea..........

Let us know if you do try it.

Best regards,
Steve

 

[toggleswitch]

There is prozac in there? OMG!

Ingredients:

"An aqeuous dispersion containing a fabric softening agent (cationic), fragrances, colorant, stabilizers and quality control agents."

Aqueous dispersion? FEH! Mostly water.
With some color, smell and a tad of active ingredient.

 

[frigilux]

Here are some ideas:

1) Go to a store that rents RugDoctor (or other) carpet cleaners and buy a bottle of defoamer (sometimes called defoaming agent). A few drops of that in the rinse will kill suds.

2) I hate to waste water on extra rinses, but you might put frangrance/dye-free softener in the first rinse and let the 2nd rinse eliminate traces of the softener.

3) Go to Quixtar.com and buy a box of (or bottle, if you're into liquids) of SA8 laundry detergent. It's low sudsing and generally keeps rinses pretty clear, even with very soft water. It's the best-cleaning detergent on the planet, too.

4) If you're seeing a lot of suds in the rinse, you probably have soft water. Try using half the amount of detergent. Are you using a top-loader or a front-loader? I have one of each, and with my mechanically-softened water, there is always some suds in the final rinse in the front-loader unless I use softener.

While Tide products clean very well, they are THE WORST for rinsing. Even the Mexican detergents I use (Ariel and Viva), which produce a lot of suds in the wash, don't produce as much suds in the rinse as Tide products.

 

[lederstiefel1]

Hi state-line

OK, here's the answer!

The thing is actually, that only thinning a solution can "rinse" it out. Will say that rinsing isn't anything but an endless thinning of a solution, in this case detergent (= tensides/surfactants) in water called wash-water or suds.

Now we have different kinds of tensides: non-ionic, an-ionic, kat-ionic and amphotere surfactants.

Non-ionic surfactants are more or less a kind of a emulsifying stuff and is completely non-sensitive to water hardness and acids like vinegar.

An-ionic surfactants, like e.g. soap, are able to dilute big loads of fatty dirt but are very sensitive towards water hardness.

Amphotere surfactants are very mild and good for baby shampoos and detergents for woollens and silk or downs and also are not so sensitive to water hardness as an-ionic surfactants are.

Kat-ionic surfactants do not clean but cover a surface with a film and are used for conditioners of all kind. They do not foam nor do they dilute dirt or fatty soil, and as kat- (= plus) is opposite of an- (= minus) they block the counterpart.
Foaming an-ionic surfactants will collapse (as well as amphotere and non-ionic ones) and washing seems to be rinsed well, but truely it is just the same as if you put vinegar into a solution of soap; they "kill" eachother, but actually it does not take the soap out of the water.

What you see in your wash-water even after having added vinegar to it is just the part of the tensides which can withstand the acidity, namely the non-ionic surfactants.
So, it shows you that the tensidess are still there even if some of them are blocked by acidity (vinegar versus an-ionic surfactants) or, in case of the use of conditioners, because of the kat-ionic surfactants in them.

Finally one can say the only way to get rid of tensides/surfactants is....

RINSING! RINSING! RINSING! (and spinning in between of course)

Ralf

 

[tomturbomatic]

Are you using a front loader or a top loader? A liquid HE detergent in a top loader will produce fewer suds in both the wash and the rinse so you might try that. If you are using a liquid detergent, vinegar is not that effective in rinsing. It is used by some home launderers as a sour or acidifying agent to neutralize the high alkalinity of some detergents and wash additives like STPP and similar alkaline agents that condition the water to make soap or detergent more effective. Liquid detergents do not rely as much on alkalinity as do powders. Liquid detergents use a lot of alcohol based surfactants which is why they can be more effective on greasy types of soil. The fact that alcohol does not go into solution in water, but is merely water miscible means that rinsing is different and looks different. The suds that remains is often a trace of the alcohol based wetting agents. If your dishwasher has a rinse agent dispenser, you can notice the different sound of the rinse water with the wetting agent. It is quieter because it is foamy. The detergent is gone, but there is foam.

Now the big question: even though you are seeing suds in the final rinse, are you having any dermatitis from your clothing or linens? If not, you are probably seeing the quirky rinsing of liquid detergents which leave suds even after the majority of the detergent has been removed from the clothes. If you are experiencing irritation and not washing in cold water, you might want to try an HE powder or one of the FAB formulas that some members have recommended as almost non-sudsing. If your clothes are not heavily soiled or you wash small loads, use less detergent and almost always use less than the recommended amount.

Let us know how this progresses. Tom

 

[panthera]

Didn't Laundress

Have some good advice on this a few weeks ago? If it was not she, please forgive me, life is kinda rough at this time of the year.

If I remember rightly, it was something about using STTP to get the residual detergent out of the clothes.

I do agree with Ralf on the rinsing - there is a minimum of water needed to clean and rinsing is part of cleaning.

Me, I am not a fan of fabric softener, I seems weird to me to take my newly cleaned clothes and bathe them in grease...

 

[lederstiefel1]

panthera & tomturbomatic

Keven, it's not grease, it's a surfactant - usually a quarterny ammonia compound.
But we normally do not use conditioner either - I do not like that chemical stuff on freshly laundered items!

You are right to me about the possiblility to get residues out of garments by using STTP and Tom, I also agree with your opinion that neutralizing the alkalinity with vinegar is sometimes a good idea.

But to get something rinsed out sufficiently, meaning to get rid of something, it needs to RINSE and not to add another chemical stuff to an already present chemical stuff to neutralize, convert or alter it chemically.

The idea with an in America called HE-detergent is a possibility that might help a bit, too!

Ralf

 

[panthera]

Ralf,

I was thinking of the dryer sheet used here in the US. They coat the clothing with a film of dirt collecting waxes and or fats.
My comment was a bit intemperate, sorry.
I never thought of the HE idea. Good suggestion.
Of course, rinsing in warm water at this time of the year doesn't hurt, either.

 

[whirlcool]

I find that powdered detergents definitely rinse out better than liquids. We use Persil powders and almost always have crystal clear rinse water and the clothes come out perfectly clean.

We also noticed that with continuous use of liquids our washer would get a foul smell to it. And we do run out whites on HOT.

We have also used powdered Fab and Fresh Start with good results as well. Many people here also have great results with SA8.

 

[mrboilwash]

Why do you mind the suds in the last rinse at all ?
Do you think no suds in the last rinse necessarily means no chemicals are left behind and therefore your laundry is rinsed very well ? I dont think so.
No suds in the last rinse could also indicate a saturated wash solution for example or a good suds controlling agent in your deteregent. Detergents marketed to rinse out easily is just a marketing hype in my opinion because it mostly depends on your washer and your water conditions if you have a good rinse result or if you dont.
As mentioned by others before sufficient rinsing is very important to keep detergent residues in clothes as small as possible. No question about that. Some anionic surfactants can suds up pretty much even if there are only very small traces left. If you use a toploader with at least one spray rinse and a deep rinse and if it doesnt suds lock in the rinse spin some suds or tubidity in the last rinse shouldnt worry you. Does your laundry feel slippery or soapy after the wash when you dont use a fabric softener ? Then you should worry ! Same with frontloaders, check for sud locks and if your clothes feel all right at the end and if you feel like it with most machines you can still add an additional rinse just to be on the safe side.
Some dermatologists even recommend the use of a mild fabric softener to reduce the rubbing of clothes on psoriasis skin for example and because of the pH neutralizing benefit. However the cationic surfactant has no caring propertys for the skin but can be irritant, so this opinion is controversial.

 

[mrboilwash]

I mean if one washes a load with 100g detergent and after a certain rinse procedure a washer is leaving behind 1g of detergent,so what is the big deal about weather the residual 1g is disigned to suds up or not ? I mean there is still 1g of a chemical left behind no matter how the last rinse water looks like.
Numbers are only estimated, I have no clue what the perfect dilution should be.

 

[launderess]

Liquid detergents are well known for having some foam in the rinse water, even Tide's website addresses the issue. Just the nature of the surfactants used. White vinegar won't help as vinegar is a weak acid and while it will help with hard water minerals, soap film and such, the problem with excess surfactants isn't exactly in that realm.

What one can try is starting the laundry first, then waiting a few moments after agiation begins to see if enough suds are present to indicate enough detergent residue is present to perhaps clean the entire load. If this happens, simply do not add more detergent. Repeated enough times this should allow whatever detergent residue to work it's way out.

Adding fabric softeners and or defoaming agents does nothing to remove detergent residue/foam, but merely supresses the suds. So one could have in theory tons of detergent residue, but not notice it because the rinse water is foam free.

Personally when using any variety of Tide, I'd start with much lower product dosage than stated on the box. For their HE liquid that means about 1 tablespoon or even less depending upon load size and stain levels.

 

[brettsomers]

i too have found that Tide dosages can be halved with good results.

i once washed four very dirty, insulated winter-type jackets at work. two to a machine in maytag standard tubs. i split one vend-size package of Tide between the two machines and the jackets, with heavy body soil, came out completely clean and very very fresh.

also, if you load the machine a bit more loosely, the rinse will be much better.