Supreme Court Sniffs At Smelly Washers Case

[tomturbomatic]

From NBC News, a headline worthy of Variety.
Do you think this might alter the nonsense about cold water washing?

Supreme Court Sniffs at Smelly-Washers Case

<p>The high court rejected an appeal from the makers of front-loading clothes washers who face class-action lawsuits that claim a design flaw causes a musty odor.</p>

www.nbcnews.com

 

[thomasortega]

This is still something I can't understand and it deserves further investigation.

Here in Brazil people don't have the habit of using warm or hot water. there are few models with heaters and 99% of the homes simply don't have a hot water tap.

For most consumers, when we talk about washing in hot water they would say "washing in hot or warm water? why?"

All front loaders have the hot water option (with internal heater) and can reach 60°C but most consumers NEVER selected hot water.

And we never had problems with it. clothes come out clean, nobody has skin infections because of that, our washers don't smell or have mold issues (unless you keep the door closed, but that's obvious). Most consumers also don't use other laundry aditives like LCB or oxybleach. (Maybe some people use LCB for really dirty whites only)

We also don't have problems with poor rinsing (even on models imported from the US like the Electrolux Ecoturbo or the Brastemp Duet)

What is the different factor that is causing that? Maybe the detergents? Maybe the water? The room temperature?

One thing I noticed: Using Brazilian detergents, the suds reach almost half drum but the second rinse drains clear. Actually, the foam in the drum dissapears during the drain, before the first rinse. and I never had a suds lock.
Using Tide HE made in the US, there's no foam at all during the wash but strangely there's a lot of foam on the FINAL SPIN, sometimes causing a suds lock. I always have to repeat the cycle and the more i rinse, the more foam it makes. To compare, i used Ariel Liquid vs Tide Liquid, both made by PG.

I'm seriously thinking of sending a bottle of brazilian Ariel to a member in the US that has a machine exactly like mine and make a comparison test. Who has a frigidaire affinity?

 

[washman]

I doubt it turbo

too many sheeple have been inculcated to believe otherwise.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Thomas, are you talking about liquid or powder Tide HE? I have no sudsing problems with the powder, but find suds more persistent with the liquid HE detergents. The manufacturers said it was due to the citrates the liquid detergents use as water softeners.

Another question for you: do many people in Brazil use fabric softeners? Some have blamed the stench in washers on the residue softeners leave behind.

None of my front loaders have odors, but the doors are kept open as well as the dispenser drawers when the machines are not in use.

I think that many people in the US who went out and bought these giant front loaders have them in places where the doors cannot be left open because there is not room to allow that and permit foot traffic near the machine.

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>(from the article):  ... Sears and its Whirlpool subsidiary, along with German company BSH.</blockquote> Whirlpool is a subsidiary of Sears?

 

[tomturbomatic]

Glenn, That would be a real anchor around the foot, wouldn't it?

 

[thomasortega]

Both liquids (as many people said here that liquids are worse for smell and mold problems)

Brazilians are big fans of strong scents. Just like mexican "mamacitas". People tend to use much more than the recommended dose. Actually, Brazilian washers tend to have a huge softener dispenser because we understand that the consumers like to use much more than the regular "1 cap".

 

With the concentrated products, manufacturers simply found the golden egg chicken.  the regular dose is half cap, but consumers love them because they are even stronger when they use the 3 caps they are used to. (of course, they are using 6 times more softener)

And of course anyone would think that it makes the problem even worse for us. the answer is NO. Our washers still don't smell and we still don't have problems with mold.

As I said before, the only way to have nasty odors or mold in a front loader in Brazil is when people keep the door closed after use.
And at least on my washer (Electrolux Ecoturbo - Same Frigidaire Affinity in the U.S.), i never had to keep the door wide open. I close it until the door is out of the way, but without locking it. Theres a only gap so small that wouldnt fit my finger. but after years, it seems to be enough to make my washer smell like new after years of use. And I never keep the dispenser drawer open only because i'm too lazy to do that. I just remove it to clean the residues once a month and I never had mold in it too.

Other thing I also noticed: When I use brazilian detergents (Ariel, Omo, Ype, Ace,) or argentinian detergents (Skip, Ala, etc), no matter if they are powder or liquids, after a week without using the washer, i notice a very delicate SOFTENER scent in the washer, the last softener I used.

When I use american detergents (Tide, Cheer, Purex, etc) also both liquid or powders, after a week I notice a strong DETERGENT scent. Sometimes i can even run two or three loads with different detergents and softeners and the machine still smelling like the american detergent I used before.
When I use scent boosters like Purex Crystals, in a single load, the machine smells like it for several weeks, after more than 10 loads.

Also, when I run a load with american detergents, i notice the drum is still slippery after the machine is dry. and it doesn't sparkle as it should. It's hard to explain, it's some kind of oily film. And when I use any other detergents, the drum is dry like new right after I unload the machine and the drum sparkles like it was polished

 

[frontloaderfan]

I too have the Frigidaire Affinity and still don't have any build-up of any kind after almost two years of use. I just keep the door open with the "fresh air latch" and it stays as fresh as it was when I first bought it.

I did not have very good results using liquid Tide or pods, which are what Frigidaire recommends with this washer. As I said in the "pods" thread, I had way too much sudsing and had to rinse again and again in order to get the soap out completely.

Since I have switched to Persil (yes, I know it's expensive), my laundry is spotless and free of detergent residue after the normal three rinses, which still use very little water, even after the WLS modification.

I have stopped using LFS altogether since switching to Persil because I don't want to ruin that delicate scent with some overpowering Downy smell. I recall the Germans laughing about how Americans want everything to smell like flowers, right down to air fresheners and feminine hygiene products. Of course, that was just a bit of derisive stereotyping, but there is some truth to it.

 

[supersuds]

The Supreme Court case is really just about whether there are enough people with similar situations to justify a class action. There isn't any holding on the merits of the cases.

From the lawyers' perspective, the case is about aggregating enough claims, however minor, to shake down the manufacturers/retailers for a settlement that they can take a 40% slice of. The more plaintiffs, the more money.

Any individual consumers will end up getting peanuts, if anything, years from now.

Meanwhile, the same torrent of bad laundry advice will continue ricocheting around the internet, and the same lazy people will fail to take care of their laundry equipment and be angry when they have problems.

 

[whirlcool]

I think it's a combination of liquid detergents and plastic outer tubs that cause the problem. As Thomas stated, the liquid detergents leave behind some kind of residue, and it sticks to plastic outer drums like glue. This provides a perfect breeding ground for mold. It seems that those who use powdered detergents have less of a problem.

 

[donprohel]

What about the fabric softener?

In my life I have used only 3 fabric softeners:

1) Italian store brand: no problem with the dispenser, just some waxy residue, but no mildew

2) Ecover (UK version): same as number 1) above

3) Seventh Generation Free and Clear (USA version): well... yes, mildew in the detergent drawer. When I used it undiluted, it caused reddish and then black mould residues even leaving open the detergent drawer. Now I used it pre-diluted 50% with water, there is less mildew, but still there is some, and again even if the detergent drawer is left open.

Could it be that the problem is just a different formulation?

 

[washer111]

Softeners "Stink" at Heavy Dosage

I thin the issue you might be seeing is the fabric softeners or *very scented* detergents covering the odour of a dirty washer. 

 

Remember that softeners are a waxy compound that do form biofilms in the washer very quickly unless removed with hot washes. There is no way any machine used with such copious amounts of softener wouldn't have a mould problem - since the biofilm provides a place for the spores to 'swarm and multiply,' not to mention your cold temps are so warm they would encourage the growth of such organisms. 

 

Just because you cannot see a problem, doesn't mean its non-existent. 

 

As for the claims about cold-water cleaning, again, this is particularly related to your very warm cold temperatures. I would hazard to suggest though that if you found a hot tap and used it and washed whites at 60º, or hotter, you'd find they would be much cleaner than just with "cold" water. That is just a fact of life.  

 

[mrb627]

Micro-Dosing

I suspect the big issue is users micro-dosing laundry detergent because they were told to do so by their salesperson or they have witnessed a couple bubbles in the rinse and conclude they can use less.

Malcolm

 

[frigilux]

Thomas-- What is the temperature of your cold water at the tap? The cold water temperature here in Minnesota can be as low as 45 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter (7.22 Celsius). I would assume your temperature is substantially higher, and maybe that's why Brazilians have better results washing exclusively in cold water.

 

[hoover1100]

Why is a court of law even entertaining this case?

Washing machines develop mould and smell because of constant washing at low temperatures, not using enough detergent, not using any bleaching agents (or degergents containing them) and leaving the door closed between loads/leaving the completed load in the machine for ages after it has finished.

Use a combination of small doses of low quality detergent, never use bleach, always wash in cold water and leave the load sitting in the machine with the door shut and I can guarantee almost any washing machine will develop a stink over time, it is NOT a design flaw, simply user error.

 

[DADoES]

 
I'm surprised that (apparently) no one on the defense for this case has presented several specimens of toploaders with mold/smutz infestation as evidence the issue is not specific to frontloaders ... it's not difficult to find them.  Or maybe they have and it's not relevant?

 

[tomturbomatic]

Supersuds, The article at the link stated:

"The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday rejected an appeal from the makers of front-loading clothes washers who face class-action lawsuits, involving potentially millions of customers, that claim a design flaw causes a musty odor.

The legal issue was whether the claims of consumers are similar enough to justify a class action, consolidating all the individual lawsuits into one massive case. Now that the Supreme Court has declined to weigh in, lawyers for consumers can continue pursuing their suits in the lower courts."

The appeal before the court was not about getting enough people for a class action suit. It was about not entertaining an appeal from the machine manufacturers that would have interfered with the pursuit of the suits in lower courts. Frankly, I hope that the machines will have to wash & rinse better so that soil residue is not left in the machine. All of this stuff about special washer cleaners and cleaning cycles is bullshit. From the very first automatic washer, the ads have stated that automatic washers clean themselves and any good machine should still do that. Manufacturers have been taking money in the form of research grants and design bonuses from the government to tighten down the water requirements of their washers and dishwashers and if these manufacturers have to lose a few of their ill-gotten millions, TFB. If the washer manufacturers say that their machines are the way they are because of the DOE and EPA, I hope those agencies are hauled into court and reamed out. Any machine that leaves deposits of soil and organic growth culture media inside the machine is not doing the job expected of it. If there really is as much crap on the outside of the drum as is shown in the animation in the washer cleaning product commercials, something is terribly wrong somewhere and I think a few lawsuits are the perfect way to get to the bottom of it.

 

[washman]

I hope your post carries weight turbo

because I happen to agree.

Personally, I would like to see both the EPA and DOE regulated out of existence.

I tried to point this out that is not the manufacturers per se causing all this nonsense (and driving up sales of washer cleaner)but rather asinine gov't regulations. While I know there is a political forum one cannot hide that the very things some of us bitch about ARE a result of political bullshit.

And to go one step further, how about we decouple all these mergers over the years and get back to more than a handful of independent washing machine companies?
Then it would be a real horse race as to who provides the best machine for the money.

 

[washer111]

I Should Add

If you are using that much softener on your clothes, its actually a wonder they are "clean," and not just stinking heaps of wax-laden cotton...

 

I very much doubt that cold water could remove that, considering my experiences with washing Darks at 30° - I eventually got fed up and had to wash at warmer temperatures - typically 40°.