DirectDriveDave
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2011
- Messages
- 456
Another reason why I love my warm rinses.
Supreme Court Sniffs At Smelly Washers Case
- Thread starter tomturbomatic
- Start date
Help Support :
phosphate?
thomasortega said,
"One thing I noticed: Using Brazilian detergents, the suds reach almost half drum but the second rinse drains clear. Actually, the foam in the drum dissapears during the drain, before the first rinse. and I never had a suds lock.
Using Tide HE made in the US, there's no foam at all during the wash but strangely there's a lot of foam on the FINAL SPIN, sometimes causing a suds lock. I always have to repeat the cycle and the more i rinse, the more foam it makes. To compare, i used Ariel Liquid vs Tide Liquid, both made by PG."
Is it possible that Brazilian detergents still have some phosphate content? That's what this sounds like. Suds on wash in cold water and excellent rinsing characteristics. That's why you get clean clothes and a clean machine with cold water.
Look for STPP (sodium tripolyphosphate) on the label. I don't know if there would be a complete ingredient list on the label but it's worth a look.
There are still laundry detergents available in the USA for commercial and institutional environments that have some level of phosphate content. They act as described above.
I'm not advocating either way on phosphate detergent. It's just an observation.
thomasortega said,
"One thing I noticed: Using Brazilian detergents, the suds reach almost half drum but the second rinse drains clear. Actually, the foam in the drum dissapears during the drain, before the first rinse. and I never had a suds lock.
Using Tide HE made in the US, there's no foam at all during the wash but strangely there's a lot of foam on the FINAL SPIN, sometimes causing a suds lock. I always have to repeat the cycle and the more i rinse, the more foam it makes. To compare, i used Ariel Liquid vs Tide Liquid, both made by PG."
Is it possible that Brazilian detergents still have some phosphate content? That's what this sounds like. Suds on wash in cold water and excellent rinsing characteristics. That's why you get clean clothes and a clean machine with cold water.
Look for STPP (sodium tripolyphosphate) on the label. I don't know if there would be a complete ingredient list on the label but it's worth a look.
There are still laundry detergents available in the USA for commercial and institutional environments that have some level of phosphate content. They act as described above.
I'm not advocating either way on phosphate detergent. It's just an observation.
Tom, the issue was Whirlpool et al. objecting to how many class members could be certified and I just want to emphasize that this was a procedural ruling, not any judgment on the merits. The plaintiffs are asking for a very expansive class, including people who might have problems in the future, which (I am cynically pointing out) benefits the Big Law firms involved in the action, but doesn't increase damages due to the individual plaintiffs who actually have experienced smelly washers. Believe me, you wouldn't see this high priced legal talent deployed if a large class couldn't be certified. That means a bigger pot of fees at the end of the rainbow. From a plaintiff lawyer's point of view, that's what it's all about. 
The lower courts concluded that the larger class was proper, and the Supreme Court did not see a basis for review.
That doesn't mean I think the plaintiffs don't have a case; I think they may very well have one, and certainly they've presented enough evidence to be heard in a court of law.
For those who are interested, a link to Whirlpool's brief is here:
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/12-322-Cert-Petition-702880942_121.pdf
The plaintiff's response is here. Read it if you want to understand how the courts could entertain the suit:
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-co...ondents-Brief-in-Opposition-to-Certiorari.pdf
It will be interesting to see the factual issues kicked around at trial, if there is not a settlement. The plaintiffs say that all of the washers have these common faults: "None prevents mold from forming, eliminates mold during a self-cleaning cycle, or allows consumers to remove mold manually."
The U.S. District Court defined the issues to be resolved as: 1) the
existence of a design defect; (2) whether that defect was a “substantial factor” leading to the mold problem in all machines; (3) Whirlpool’s knowledge of the design defect;(4) whether Whirlpool was required to warn purchasers about the mold problem prior to sale; and (5) whether the withheld information about the mold problem was “material,” which triggers a presumption of reliance under Ohio law. These are the things that have to be resolved at trail before any liability is determined.
Hope that helps with some questions presented here.
The lower courts concluded that the larger class was proper, and the Supreme Court did not see a basis for review.
That doesn't mean I think the plaintiffs don't have a case; I think they may very well have one, and certainly they've presented enough evidence to be heard in a court of law.
For those who are interested, a link to Whirlpool's brief is here:
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/12-322-Cert-Petition-702880942_121.pdf
The plaintiff's response is here. Read it if you want to understand how the courts could entertain the suit:
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-co...ondents-Brief-in-Opposition-to-Certiorari.pdf
It will be interesting to see the factual issues kicked around at trial, if there is not a settlement. The plaintiffs say that all of the washers have these common faults: "None prevents mold from forming, eliminates mold during a self-cleaning cycle, or allows consumers to remove mold manually."
The U.S. District Court defined the issues to be resolved as: 1) the
existence of a design defect; (2) whether that defect was a “substantial factor” leading to the mold problem in all machines; (3) Whirlpool’s knowledge of the design defect;(4) whether Whirlpool was required to warn purchasers about the mold problem prior to sale; and (5) whether the withheld information about the mold problem was “material,” which triggers a presumption of reliance under Ohio law. These are the things that have to be resolved at trail before any liability is determined.
Hope that helps with some questions presented here.
I saw "Mr Williams" give the report on the news tonight. How far back could the legal ramifications reach? Has the statue of limitations run out? Will WP have to dig up the old file boxes from MT? I have never owned a F/L. You know folks will lawyer up, kids with allergies and things I have not thought of.
alr
alr
Detergents here in Brazil are STPP free since 2005. About STPP, Brazil is much more paranoid than the US. In the US one can still find some products that contain STPP (detergents for professional use, fertilizers, herbicides, etc) In Brazil it was totally banned and it's used is severely controlled by IBAMA, ANVISA and even the Federal Police. Some laboratories and universities can use it for researches or educational puproses only.
The tap water can vary from region to region and according to the weather. In my city, the coldest water i get is 15°C during a very severe winter and the average temperature is 30°C during the summer, when my building's chiller is running. But some other regions can get much colder water during the winter and is some regions water can freeze in the pipes.
It's evident that I know the differences of washing with hot water. I even installed a tankles water heater only to fill my washer with super hot water. I washed for many years using super hot but then I realized that it made no significant (visible) difference on most regular stains. Of course, i use hot water sometimes when i know the stains are hard to remove with cold water. Depending on the kind of stain, i don't even try to wash it on cold, iset it to hot right on the first try.
About the "liquid" detergents, please note that i don't use only liquids and the same issues i got using powder american detergents too.
There is something more or something less in american detergents, this is an obvious fact. But what would it be?
Other thing I noticed it that LFS manufacturers finally listened to the consumers. Until a few years ago, all LFS were thick as molasses. They were horrible in the dispensers as they wouldn't even dillute and fall from the dispenser. Top loaders with an american style softener dispenser in the agitator were hated in Brazil because of that.
Consumers were so stupid at that time that they thought a LFS should need to be pulled from the cap with a finger, otherwise it would be "weak".
Finally with the super concentrated softeners it changed and all our softeners are now as liquid as water and they don't leave any residues behind, however, they still make the clothes soft and smelling good, except by the new Downy Fusion that smells like bubble gum. I bought a bottle of it to try and had the stupid idea to wash all my bed linen, including the duvet and the pillows with it. I LOVE strong softener scent but that one was a nightmare. It was like sleeping in a fruit salad bowl..
Other thing that came in my mind now.... maybe the water? Water in Brazil is so soft that if you ask to 99% of the population what is "hard water" they would answer "ice". Most people simply don't know what is hard water.
The tap water can vary from region to region and according to the weather. In my city, the coldest water i get is 15°C during a very severe winter and the average temperature is 30°C during the summer, when my building's chiller is running. But some other regions can get much colder water during the winter and is some regions water can freeze in the pipes.
It's evident that I know the differences of washing with hot water. I even installed a tankles water heater only to fill my washer with super hot water. I washed for many years using super hot but then I realized that it made no significant (visible) difference on most regular stains. Of course, i use hot water sometimes when i know the stains are hard to remove with cold water. Depending on the kind of stain, i don't even try to wash it on cold, iset it to hot right on the first try.
About the "liquid" detergents, please note that i don't use only liquids and the same issues i got using powder american detergents too.
There is something more or something less in american detergents, this is an obvious fact. But what would it be?
Other thing I noticed it that LFS manufacturers finally listened to the consumers. Until a few years ago, all LFS were thick as molasses. They were horrible in the dispensers as they wouldn't even dillute and fall from the dispenser. Top loaders with an american style softener dispenser in the agitator were hated in Brazil because of that.
Consumers were so stupid at that time that they thought a LFS should need to be pulled from the cap with a finger, otherwise it would be "weak".
Finally with the super concentrated softeners it changed and all our softeners are now as liquid as water and they don't leave any residues behind, however, they still make the clothes soft and smelling good, except by the new Downy Fusion that smells like bubble gum. I bought a bottle of it to try and had the stupid idea to wash all my bed linen, including the duvet and the pillows with it. I LOVE strong softener scent but that one was a nightmare. It was like sleeping in a fruit salad bowl..
Other thing that came in my mind now.... maybe the water? Water in Brazil is so soft that if you ask to 99% of the population what is "hard water" they would answer "ice". Most people simply don't know what is hard water.
Cookietaster12
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2012
- Messages
- 39
I do not understand what the trouble is with front loaders! If you follow the instructions, which clearly tell you to leave the door cracked and to use the cleaning cycle once a month, then you will not have issues with odor. People use way to much fabric softner and detergent because they feel that the clothes are not clean if they don't see suds. Suds do not indicate clean clothes. I just dont get it.
I have had my Maytag front loader set for 5yrs this coming April, and I have never had an issue with odor. I only keep the door cracked, use HE detergent, and run the cleaning cycle once a month. Thats is! What is so hard about that??????
I have had my Maytag front loader set for 5yrs this coming April, and I have never had an issue with odor. I only keep the door cracked, use HE detergent, and run the cleaning cycle once a month. Thats is! What is so hard about that??????
Seems to me that a class action suit would be a waste of time and effort, would probably not effect any positive change going forward, and would possibly trigger some annoying and/or unsightly idiot-proofing measures instead.
Everybody who chooses to participate in the class action will get a check for something like $3.47 two years from now after they've forgotten all about it, and their washers will still smell.
And then there's P&G, who is making money selling freshener for stinky washers and I presume would like to continue doing so. I suspect they'd contribute a fair amount of funds to the defense.
Everybody who chooses to participate in the class action will get a check for something like $3.47 two years from now after they've forgotten all about it, and their washers will still smell.
And then there's P&G, who is making money selling freshener for stinky washers and I presume would like to continue doing so. I suspect they'd contribute a fair amount of funds to the defense.
Its a shame because this is fully a user induced problem. The inability to leave the door open or adapt ones laundry practices slightly is the only issue. This explains why there are many people that never have problems with their front load machines. Pity in today's society people have it so ingrained in their mind that the "customer is always right" that the user of course isn't to blame, so sue the manufacturer!
The manufacturers have responded with cleaning cycles which should help, both with eliminating smells and lawsuits. I think eventually they will end up with all models having small blow down fans to help dry the interiors and allow the user to keep the door shut.
I'd love to install a FL machine at my girlfriends parents house. They do 10+ loads of laundry a week and they are on a septic system. Going to a front loader would sure minimize the water usage. But their laundry habits would have the machine stunk up in 6 months and they would be part of this class action suit ASAP...
The manufacturers have responded with cleaning cycles which should help, both with eliminating smells and lawsuits. I think eventually they will end up with all models having small blow down fans to help dry the interiors and allow the user to keep the door shut.
I'd love to install a FL machine at my girlfriends parents house. They do 10+ loads of laundry a week and they are on a septic system. Going to a front loader would sure minimize the water usage. But their laundry habits would have the machine stunk up in 6 months and they would be part of this class action suit ASAP...
Thomas
this may help answer your question about P&G detergents and the suds you see in rinse. About 3-5 years ago P&G developed a new type of surfactant based on alkyl-sulfate. Its purpose was to be able to wash in cooler water temperatures, they are still seeking patent on this as of the last time I checked but it is in use in the liquid & powder formulations.
I find using it the water gets slipperier and slipperier the colder the water gets , I also find more suds in the rinse and I find to get it out of the clothes, well when I tried it in the Easy Spin Drier - a large agitator tub machine- it took 5! tub fills to get the rinse water to feel clean and the clothes to feel rinsed. It doesn't seem to rinse out easily at all, and the cooler the water the better it seems to hang on to the clothing.
this may help answer your question about P&G detergents and the suds you see in rinse. About 3-5 years ago P&G developed a new type of surfactant based on alkyl-sulfate. Its purpose was to be able to wash in cooler water temperatures, they are still seeking patent on this as of the last time I checked but it is in use in the liquid & powder formulations.
I find using it the water gets slipperier and slipperier the colder the water gets , I also find more suds in the rinse and I find to get it out of the clothes, well when I tried it in the Easy Spin Drier - a large agitator tub machine- it took 5! tub fills to get the rinse water to feel clean and the clothes to feel rinsed. It doesn't seem to rinse out easily at all, and the cooler the water the better it seems to hang on to the clothing.
arbilab
Well-known member
I'll just briefly restate that my 1998 ElectroFrigiWhite FL never smelled of anything but Tide and the neoprene boot. I toweled the boot and dispenser and left the door ajar but no other 'heroic measures' were required. Most washes were mixed/colors at ~100F.
The family's Westinghouse slant FLs never smelled either, with or without the boot dried and the door ajar. Though they were lucky to get maybe 2 days off a week in a family of 6. Permpress hadn't been invented yet so most washes were hot. But some were diapers.
When the pump failed in this building's coinop Neptune FL and sat full of water for several days, it smelled like satan's sweatsocks. Before I used it I ran a hot cycle of detergent and bleach only, to make sure that smell didn't follow me home. But even with no care at all such as drying the boot and leaving the door ajar, nothing approaching that smell ever happened again.
Frankly I don't know what the lawsuit machines or owners are doing wrong. But I can tell you this. I have inadvertantly (they contacted ME) been a plaintiff in several class-action lawsuits, they all won, and I never got more than $19.95 from the judgement. So anyone suing the manuf'rs can count on no more than a modest cheeseburger dinner for a family of 3 when they win. No supersizing.
The family's Westinghouse slant FLs never smelled either, with or without the boot dried and the door ajar. Though they were lucky to get maybe 2 days off a week in a family of 6. Permpress hadn't been invented yet so most washes were hot. But some were diapers.
When the pump failed in this building's coinop Neptune FL and sat full of water for several days, it smelled like satan's sweatsocks. Before I used it I ran a hot cycle of detergent and bleach only, to make sure that smell didn't follow me home. But even with no care at all such as drying the boot and leaving the door ajar, nothing approaching that smell ever happened again.
Frankly I don't know what the lawsuit machines or owners are doing wrong. But I can tell you this. I have inadvertantly (they contacted ME) been a plaintiff in several class-action lawsuits, they all won, and I never got more than $19.95 from the judgement. So anyone suing the manuf'rs can count on no more than a modest cheeseburger dinner for a family of 3 when they win. No supersizing.
<a style="font-family: Times; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 20px;" name="start_51361.737736"></a>
...and I never got more than $19.95 from the judgement
Damn it! There goes my Plan B for retirement!
Have used front-loaders as daily drivers since 1987, and never a problem with odors. They have all been WCI or Electrolux machines.
...and I never got more than $19.95 from the judgement
Damn it! There goes my Plan B for retirement!
Have used front-loaders as daily drivers since 1987, and never a problem with odors. They have all been WCI or Electrolux machines.
Defense need only ask AW.org
User Error. I can't imagine it will be too hard to prove.
I'm familiar with lots of front loading washers of all brands and almost never see mold and odor problems. "Heroic measures" love that! I don't know anyone who does, just simple common sense. Hot water cycles now and then, door open when not in use and occasional wipe down. Appliances have almost never been completely self-cleaning, from the washer lid openings and dispensers to oven door frames on self-cleaning ovens, they've all needed at least a little attention from the owner to stay clean.
You're right about the settlement amounts, I had a Whirlpool water heater that was the subject of a lawsuit a few years back and WP mailed out new burner parts to everyone who'd bought one these models. Mine had no issues until nearly the end of the warranty. When the new parts didn't solve the auto-extinguish-pilot problem, I called WP and they had me take the unit back to Lowes and gave me a whole new water heater. This seemed extraordinary for an appliance that had only a few weeks left on the five year warranty, but I didn't argue, just took my new heater home. I seriously doubt that will be the case with the washers.
User Error. I can't imagine it will be too hard to prove.
I'm familiar with lots of front loading washers of all brands and almost never see mold and odor problems. "Heroic measures" love that! I don't know anyone who does, just simple common sense. Hot water cycles now and then, door open when not in use and occasional wipe down. Appliances have almost never been completely self-cleaning, from the washer lid openings and dispensers to oven door frames on self-cleaning ovens, they've all needed at least a little attention from the owner to stay clean.
You're right about the settlement amounts, I had a Whirlpool water heater that was the subject of a lawsuit a few years back and WP mailed out new burner parts to everyone who'd bought one these models. Mine had no issues until nearly the end of the warranty. When the new parts didn't solve the auto-extinguish-pilot problem, I called WP and they had me take the unit back to Lowes and gave me a whole new water heater. This seemed extraordinary for an appliance that had only a few weeks left on the five year warranty, but I didn't argue, just took my new heater home. I seriously doubt that will be the case with the washers.
Is it possible
with these machines using less water would it help the plaintiff argue their case? Or do the newer machines just clean and rinse better with lower water? My Duet is an older model, that uses more water, so I've been told, I have no issues with mold, etc, so is it a result of more water use and proper machine care, or just maintenance on the machine ?
with these machines using less water would it help the plaintiff argue their case? Or do the newer machines just clean and rinse better with lower water? My Duet is an older model, that uses more water, so I've been told, I have no issues with mold, etc, so is it a result of more water use and proper machine care, or just maintenance on the machine ?
Starting my laundry day at this moment. I have more than 10 loads to do and I'll post pictures soon.
I'm going to use both brazilian and american detergents to compare.
I'm going to use both brazilian and american detergents to compare.
Roscoe
Question for you> Does Canada have this "HE" movement going up there? Are machines built to use less water by Fed Standards? I don't get the feeling from my Cuz's that they do. I think there is a general awareness up there that newer machines are more efficient but not High Efficiency. Is that true?
Jet
Question for you> Does Canada have this "HE" movement going up there? Are machines built to use less water by Fed Standards? I don't get the feeling from my Cuz's that they do. I think there is a general awareness up there that newer machines are more efficient but not High Efficiency. Is that true?
Jet
whirlcool
Well-known member
Everybody who chooses to participate in the class action will get a check for something like $3.47 two years from now after they've forgotten all about it, and their washers will still smell.
It may be even worse than that, they may just get a handful of coupons in the amount of $0.10 each to be used towards the purchase of "Affresh" only. And each coupon can only be used for 1 year.
The only people who make money in these kinds of lawsuits are the lawyers. Remember the Kodak instant camera class action suit? After about five years of wrangling, the people in the suit got some coupons totally $25.00 towards the purchase of Kodak film products only. No cash awards. The lawyers walked away with millions.
It may be even worse than that, they may just get a handful of coupons in the amount of $0.10 each to be used towards the purchase of "Affresh" only. And each coupon can only be used for 1 year.
The only people who make money in these kinds of lawsuits are the lawyers. Remember the Kodak instant camera class action suit? After about five years of wrangling, the people in the suit got some coupons totally $25.00 towards the purchase of Kodak film products only. No cash awards. The lawyers walked away with millions.
On energystar.gov, one can check whether to display models that are sold in the US and/or Canada - so I guess Canada uses a similar or even the same sceme as the US.
Did a quick search on Whirlpool's WFW88HEA#**
energystar says - Anual Water Use is 4582.87 gallons (or 17 348.0501 liters)
nrcan.gc.ca says - Anual Water Use is 16822.288 liters (or 4 443.97835 gallons)
_______________________________________________________________________________
difference is 139 gallons.
Hmmm...
Did a quick search on Whirlpool's WFW88HEA#**
energystar says - Anual Water Use is 4582.87 gallons (or 17 348.0501 liters)
nrcan.gc.ca says - Anual Water Use is 16822.288 liters (or 4 443.97835 gallons)
_______________________________________________________________________________
difference is 139 gallons.
Hmmm...
