A circuit breaker cannot trip fast enough to save you--Common sense will!ANY of the power supply voltages discussed here are DANGEROUS and LETHAL.
Tell me more about this washer!
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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A circuit breaker is *not* a shock protection device. Never, ever assume that.
All a circuit breaker (MCB in Europe) does is trip when too much current is flowing (an overcurrent). This protects against fire, not shock. They do exactly the same job as a fuse. These will allow large current to flow (enough to power several appliances) but not more than the fixed wiring in the building can safely handle.
They will absolutely not protect you from a lethal shock.
To protect people and animals from getting electric shocks you needs a different type of device known as a GFCI in the US or an RCD in Europe and some other parts of the world.
These work by comparing the current on both sides of a circuit and if there's a difference beyond a certain preset level (low enough to prevent leathal shock) they trip.
These are very common in Europe (mandatory for a long time in many countries) but, as far as I am aware, would not be required on US 240V circuits.
All a circuit breaker (MCB in Europe) does is trip when too much current is flowing (an overcurrent). This protects against fire, not shock. They do exactly the same job as a fuse. These will allow large current to flow (enough to power several appliances) but not more than the fixed wiring in the building can safely handle.
They will absolutely not protect you from a lethal shock.
To protect people and animals from getting electric shocks you needs a different type of device known as a GFCI in the US or an RCD in Europe and some other parts of the world.
These work by comparing the current on both sides of a circuit and if there's a difference beyond a certain preset level (low enough to prevent leathal shock) they trip.
These are very common in Europe (mandatory for a long time in many countries) but, as far as I am aware, would not be required on US 240V circuits.
ozzie908
Well-known member
I was perusing Shpock a boot sale app the other day and came across this Siemens Vario perfect washer.
It would seem to be a relatively unused machine as its got no mould and is in lovely condition I have not tested it out yet as need to bring it home and put a UK plug on it as its got a German one as it was brought over by some military family who bought a house with a integrated washer so it has sat in a garage unused. Now the reason I got it was I like to have a spare washer around due to people I know who ask if I have one to sell/loan or to use while fixing theirs. So as you can see it is in its mother tongue but its so simple to use the only button I am not sure of is " Knitter schutz " Oh and for the grand sum of £20
Austin[this post was last edited: 10/3/2017-04:06]
It would seem to be a relatively unused machine as its got no mould and is in lovely condition I have not tested it out yet as need to bring it home and put a UK plug on it as its got a German one as it was brought over by some military family who bought a house with a integrated washer so it has sat in a garage unused. Now the reason I got it was I like to have a spare washer around due to people I know who ask if I have one to sell/loan or to use while fixing theirs. So as you can see it is in its mother tongue but its so simple to use the only button I am not sure of is " Knitter schutz " Oh and for the grand sum of £20
Austin[this post was last edited: 10/3/2017-04:06]
Knitterschutz = Wrinkle guard.
ozzie908
Well-known member
Louis your a star !
So its a Rinse-hold I assume you repress to make it carry on the spin?
Austin
So its a Rinse-hold I assume you repress to make it carry on the spin?
Austin
"1) the change of a fire due to overload is much lower. (its more difficult to overload a 220V circuit)"
Thats what circuit breakers are for. They disconnect long before the wire itself is hot enough to start a fire. Second because 240 volt circuits can carry twice the power, they will run twice as many lights and/or receptacles. No electrician will limit a 3,600 watt residential circuit to 1,800. Also code requires 3va per foot minimum when determining how many general use circuits, so a 2,000sqft home could either be wired with 4 120 volt 15 amp circuits, 3 120 volt 20amp circuits OR 2 240 volt 15 amp circuits...
"2) The shock itself is dangerous (or twice dangerous), but safety devices, like circuit breakers, DR, etc have a minimal (but existent) change to go off faster than 110V, exactly because of the higher voltage. So ok, the shock itself is worse, but it may last a fraction of second less. and it can be the difference between life and death."
Typical shock currents are in the milli-amp range as well as fatal levels. 1 amp is considered very lethal. To trip any residential breaker you need to go above the handle rating, and to trip the breaker instantaneously you need at least 10 to 20x the handle rating. Which means if a person being shocked is passing 18 amps the breaker will probably never open, they would need to pass 25 amps to trip a 15 amp breaker in 60-90 seconds, and 150 to 300 amps to trip the breaker in a fraction of a second.
150 to 300amps for a fraction of a second passing through a person's body would cause severe, fatal burns. There is a graph I can post which shows the duration of shock vs magnitude the body can tolerate to a certain point.
Thats what circuit breakers are for. They disconnect long before the wire itself is hot enough to start a fire. Second because 240 volt circuits can carry twice the power, they will run twice as many lights and/or receptacles. No electrician will limit a 3,600 watt residential circuit to 1,800. Also code requires 3va per foot minimum when determining how many general use circuits, so a 2,000sqft home could either be wired with 4 120 volt 15 amp circuits, 3 120 volt 20amp circuits OR 2 240 volt 15 amp circuits...
"2) The shock itself is dangerous (or twice dangerous), but safety devices, like circuit breakers, DR, etc have a minimal (but existent) change to go off faster than 110V, exactly because of the higher voltage. So ok, the shock itself is worse, but it may last a fraction of second less. and it can be the difference between life and death."
Typical shock currents are in the milli-amp range as well as fatal levels. 1 amp is considered very lethal. To trip any residential breaker you need to go above the handle rating, and to trip the breaker instantaneously you need at least 10 to 20x the handle rating. Which means if a person being shocked is passing 18 amps the breaker will probably never open, they would need to pass 25 amps to trip a 15 amp breaker in 60-90 seconds, and 150 to 300 amps to trip the breaker in a fraction of a second.
150 to 300amps for a fraction of a second passing through a person's body would cause severe, fatal burns. There is a graph I can post which shows the duration of shock vs magnitude the body can tolerate to a certain point.
Curve
Here is the shock duration vs magnitude curve taken from IEC/TR-61200-413 report. Note that we are talking mill-amps, not amps and mill-seconds, not seconds. The various zones/bonds are explained in the next linked picture. In other words, just 1 amp for a fraction of a second will cause serve burns.
And here is the curve in color:
https://www.google.com/search?q=IEC...7dTWAhVF2GMKHbfrBLYQ_AUICygC&biw=1120&bih=566
Here is the shock duration vs magnitude curve taken from IEC/TR-61200-413 report. Note that we are talking mill-amps, not amps and mill-seconds, not seconds. The various zones/bonds are explained in the next linked picture. In other words, just 1 amp for a fraction of a second will cause serve burns.
And here is the curve in color:
https://www.google.com/search?q=IEC...7dTWAhVF2GMKHbfrBLYQ_AUICygC&biw=1120&bih=566
*milli
Forgot the "i" there. I miss things all the time with spell check turned off. I turned it off because it comes with auto-correct on my computer which means anything I typed turned into a very different meaning lol.
Forgot the "i" there. I miss things all the time with spell check turned off. I turned it off because it comes with auto-correct on my computer which means anything I typed turned into a very different meaning lol.
I don't think one system is safer than another. It's more important how a system is executed. The best design can appear to be bad due to a bad execution of it.
Austin
I think the Wrinkle guard is a different spin cycle with more tumbling and a slower spinspeed.
I think the Wrinkle guard is a different spin cycle with more tumbling and a slower spinspeed.
ozzie908
Well-known member
Louis
I apologise completely misunderstood thank you for clarifying that for me
I apologise completely misunderstood thank you for clarifying that for me
No need for an apology Austin, I just translated the word, didn't explain it at first. I just don't know how it's called in English on the Bosch/Siemens control panels. I couldn't find anything about it with a quick Google search.
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