400 Hz power-used in aircraft and military-some gov't power supplies.Knew someone that used to work at a Minuteman missle site-the power used there was 400Hz-they took 60 Hz power from the utility-converted it to 400Hz.They also had 400Hz gas turbine gensets if the utility was lost.Some Control Data mainframe computer systems ran from 400Hz power.Inductive components such as transformers and motors are smaller and lighter.For motors they can run at higher speeds-The hydraulic pumps at the Minutemean site were like 200Hp-7200 RPM that opened-closed the silo door.In an airplane that had a 20mm gatling type cannon-the 2 hp 400Hz motor that ran it was no larger than your two fists held together.A 2Hp 60Hz motor would be much larger and slower RPM.And for airliners and other aircraft-look under your chair next time you are sitting in one-there may be a 208V 3Ph outlet to run the vacuum cleaner to clean the cabin-usually a backpack canister-many vacuum companies make 400Hz vacuums for aircraft use.The vacuum uses a brushless 3Ph induction motor.
Tell me more about this washer!
- Thread starter Chetlaham
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120 vs 230 volt
@suberband:
"220V is safer??
Thomas, all things being equal, a shock from 240V to ground carries twice the amperage of a shock from 120V to ground. So 120V has the safety advantage. I don't see why 240V is more reliable than 120V."
From a shock standpoint without GFCI/RCD, 240 volts tends to kill more often. Because of ohms law, any electricity flowing through the body will dissipate 4 times the heat at 240 volts than at 120 volts. Burns are more sever, and the higher current increases the odds of going into the "no let go" range.
"The North American system is elegant, I think. 240V, as the potential difference between two 120V legs, is routinely supplied by the power company. Appliances needing less amperage can run on 120V, with less shock hazard than 240V. The problem is availability of 240V within buildings."
In most cases the shock hazard is about the same for North American 240 because most shocks are line to ground giving only 120 volts across the body.
One area where I can think of 240 volts being safer than 120 is during an open neutral event. At 240 volts an open neutral in North America will not cause over voltages, which have been known to cause fires. In countries with 230 volts single phase, that risk is eliminated within the structure's wiring.
.........
400 hertz. While that would result in much smaller transformers, the reactive losses of transmission lines will be far greater. Motors will much smaller as mentioned- but run faster, making a lot of applications require a gear box. From a paper I have, it mentioned 133Hz and other high frequencies back in the day were stalling the development of induction motors. I can copy and paste it here if ok with the site rules.
@suberband:
"220V is safer??
Thomas, all things being equal, a shock from 240V to ground carries twice the amperage of a shock from 120V to ground. So 120V has the safety advantage. I don't see why 240V is more reliable than 120V."
From a shock standpoint without GFCI/RCD, 240 volts tends to kill more often. Because of ohms law, any electricity flowing through the body will dissipate 4 times the heat at 240 volts than at 120 volts. Burns are more sever, and the higher current increases the odds of going into the "no let go" range.
"The North American system is elegant, I think. 240V, as the potential difference between two 120V legs, is routinely supplied by the power company. Appliances needing less amperage can run on 120V, with less shock hazard than 240V. The problem is availability of 240V within buildings."
In most cases the shock hazard is about the same for North American 240 because most shocks are line to ground giving only 120 volts across the body.
One area where I can think of 240 volts being safer than 120 is during an open neutral event. At 240 volts an open neutral in North America will not cause over voltages, which have been known to cause fires. In countries with 230 volts single phase, that risk is eliminated within the structure's wiring.
.........
400 hertz. While that would result in much smaller transformers, the reactive losses of transmission lines will be far greater. Motors will much smaller as mentioned- but run faster, making a lot of applications require a gear box. From a paper I have, it mentioned 133Hz and other high frequencies back in the day were stalling the development of induction motors. I can copy and paste it here if ok with the site rules.
Small toys
@Combo: Does Whirlpool still make any 120 volt washers with European designed parts for the American market? I know their mini dryers are Italian made, they are neat little critters.
@Combo: Does Whirlpool still make any 120 volt washers with European designed parts for the American market? I know their mini dryers are Italian made, they are neat little critters.
There are three European designed models for the American market on Whirlpool's website:
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...he-detergent-dosing-aid-option.wfw5090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...he-detergent-dosing-aid-option.wfw3090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...er-with-time-remaining-display.wfc7500vw.html
There are matching heatpumt dryers for the first two models:
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd5090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd3090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...he-detergent-dosing-aid-option.wfw5090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...he-detergent-dosing-aid-option.wfw3090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/w...er-with-time-remaining-display.wfc7500vw.html
There are matching heatpumt dryers for the first two models:
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd5090gw.html
https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd3090gw.html
With properly installed domestic wiring systems, both US and European power are exceptionally safe. The risk of getting fatally electrocuted certainly in Northern European countries is up there with the risk of being killed by a meteor strike.
You can actually get the statistics for most countries in Europe - it's a very unusual way to be accidentally killed. Also most incidents aren't contact with normal domestic appliances - they're usually construction accidents, farm or industrial accidents and direct contact with overhead lines - notably on railways.
Most European countries also have very wireless use of RCD (GFCI) devices on all electrical outlets. There's variance in when they were adopted as mandatory, Ireland for example was 1980 but the UK was much more recent.
Those have had a huge impact on the number of domestic accidents in most countries.
I know in the US they're outlet based GFCIs whereas here they're either a RCD or a combined breaker and RCD called an RCBO. These are on every final circuit in modern installations and every socket outlet circuit in 1980s installations.
My washer and dryer (heat pump) for example are on their own dedicated 20amp 230V circuit with an RCBO feeding it.
..
Also btw when you're looking at European systems before the 1960s there were really very little in the way of coordinating bodies creating pan European standards. It's very difficult to make any kind of generalisation about old European systems as there was no "European system". You've had a process of harmonisation of standards since the early days of the EU and also since bodies like CENELEC emerged in the 50s and 60s. There was no common market for goods and services (actually only fully completed in 1993) so every country has a history of its own standards and electrical systems. They all happened to land on 220V 50Hz largely due to a history of voluntary cooperation rather than hard standards. The UK actually landed on 240V 50Hz. 230V is a compromise between the two!
You also had a rake of different national standards approving appliances until 1993. So would have seen umpteen different national standards stamps and stickers on devices sold in Europe until then. Those became accepted for cross border trade as we harmonised the rules and regulations and then ultimately the CE mark system appeared allowing full free trade.
In the modern era European harmonised standards apply but you still have national quirks like different plugs and sockets in the UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta. as well as national systems in Italy, Denmark and Switzerland. However, other than the superficial socket/plug configuration those countries still all comply with the fundamental electrical standards. Even their plugs and sockets conform to basic harmonised regs.
So in general, I wouldn't describe a "European system" until the modern era.
Incidentally, it was largely the development of the common market that brought automatic washers at affordable prices to the UK. Before that you had tarrif barriers. It was the influx of washing machines from Italy in particular in the 1970s that really brought British households into a situation where washing machines with modern controls were suddenly no longer a luxury. Prior to that, the local manufacturers were still largely pushing either manual twin tubs or very very expensive automatic machines that were out of reach of the average household.
So despite all the politics around Brexit, the EU played a big role in the development of British kitchens and laundry rooms in the 20th century.
You can actually get the statistics for most countries in Europe - it's a very unusual way to be accidentally killed. Also most incidents aren't contact with normal domestic appliances - they're usually construction accidents, farm or industrial accidents and direct contact with overhead lines - notably on railways.
Most European countries also have very wireless use of RCD (GFCI) devices on all electrical outlets. There's variance in when they were adopted as mandatory, Ireland for example was 1980 but the UK was much more recent.
Those have had a huge impact on the number of domestic accidents in most countries.
I know in the US they're outlet based GFCIs whereas here they're either a RCD or a combined breaker and RCD called an RCBO. These are on every final circuit in modern installations and every socket outlet circuit in 1980s installations.
My washer and dryer (heat pump) for example are on their own dedicated 20amp 230V circuit with an RCBO feeding it.
..
Also btw when you're looking at European systems before the 1960s there were really very little in the way of coordinating bodies creating pan European standards. It's very difficult to make any kind of generalisation about old European systems as there was no "European system". You've had a process of harmonisation of standards since the early days of the EU and also since bodies like CENELEC emerged in the 50s and 60s. There was no common market for goods and services (actually only fully completed in 1993) so every country has a history of its own standards and electrical systems. They all happened to land on 220V 50Hz largely due to a history of voluntary cooperation rather than hard standards. The UK actually landed on 240V 50Hz. 230V is a compromise between the two!
You also had a rake of different national standards approving appliances until 1993. So would have seen umpteen different national standards stamps and stickers on devices sold in Europe until then. Those became accepted for cross border trade as we harmonised the rules and regulations and then ultimately the CE mark system appeared allowing full free trade.
In the modern era European harmonised standards apply but you still have national quirks like different plugs and sockets in the UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta. as well as national systems in Italy, Denmark and Switzerland. However, other than the superficial socket/plug configuration those countries still all comply with the fundamental electrical standards. Even their plugs and sockets conform to basic harmonised regs.
So in general, I wouldn't describe a "European system" until the modern era.
Incidentally, it was largely the development of the common market that brought automatic washers at affordable prices to the UK. Before that you had tarrif barriers. It was the influx of washing machines from Italy in particular in the 1970s that really brought British households into a situation where washing machines with modern controls were suddenly no longer a luxury. Prior to that, the local manufacturers were still largely pushing either manual twin tubs or very very expensive automatic machines that were out of reach of the average household.
So despite all the politics around Brexit, the EU played a big role in the development of British kitchens and laundry rooms in the 20th century.
Very simply------MORE people are KILLED off 120V in the US than from other sources!!!!120V IS LETHAL---DON'T FORGET IT!!!!!!
Again for 400Hz-yes-transmission of this is less efficient than 50 or 60 Hz.If the facility uses the 400 Hz or "High Cycle" power as electricians call it-it is converted at the site.Older days motor gensets-newer SS converters.
Well the difference between 120V and 230V is a bit like falling off a 5 story building or falling off a 10 story building. You don't really want to do either and the technical differences aren't relevant as both are above body tolerances by quite a bit.
The only safe to touch systems would be SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) typically 12 or 24V with limited current, usually provided by isolating transformer.
Bear in mind too, 12V isn't necessarily safe. A car battery for example can cause severe burns if it comes into contact with a pathway like a metal watch strap as they can produced very large current flows at low voltage. Over loaded low voltage supplies for recessed lighting are also prone to extremely nasty fires as the low voltage = high ampage which needs much thicker wires. Sometimes people doing DIY work don't realise that you're increasing the ampage by a factor of 10 going from 120V to 12V or almost 20 times by going from 230V to 12V. Then they create complex setups with normal household wiring and end up causing fires at what loom like sturdy junctions.
At least LED lights are killing off those dangerous recessed halogens that were so popular for a while.
Some of the lost dangerous things you'll ever encounter are bus bars in large telephone switches providing -48V DC to thousands of lines. Also submarine batteries!
I would also treat hybrid and electric car batteries with extreme caution.
Always great electricity with respect and always assume things are live.
For enthusiasts on thia forum the one thing to always remember: unplug the appliance before touching any internal components! Always! Never trust a switch to isolate things safely. All they do is interrupt a circuit. if they're on the neutral or if you've a supply that has two lives (hots) you can be in a. Lot of trouble If you touch something.
Also grounding/earthing! Always, always, always ensure that your metal cased appliances are correctly grounded. Ever use a washing machine in any situation that bypasses the grounding on a socket outlet. This is almost impossible here as we don't have a concept of ungrounded outlets or plugs but it's common enough to see "cheater plugs" in old US buildings - I saw plenty in Massachusetts and also to see grounded schuko plugs inserted into non grounded socket outlets in older buildings in continental Europe.
Also RCD or GFCI protection.
In Europe it's fairly normal these days to gave GFCI / RCD protection on socket outlet circuits but if you don't and you're working on washing machines whatever part of the world you are in, at the very least get a GFCI or RCD outlet fitted or use a plug in equivalent and test it.
The advice here on RCDs is that they should all be tested when the clocks go back or forward for the start / end of daylight saving time. That two seconds of inconvenience can save someone's life.[this post was last edited: 9/25/2017-13:02]
The only safe to touch systems would be SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) typically 12 or 24V with limited current, usually provided by isolating transformer.
Bear in mind too, 12V isn't necessarily safe. A car battery for example can cause severe burns if it comes into contact with a pathway like a metal watch strap as they can produced very large current flows at low voltage. Over loaded low voltage supplies for recessed lighting are also prone to extremely nasty fires as the low voltage = high ampage which needs much thicker wires. Sometimes people doing DIY work don't realise that you're increasing the ampage by a factor of 10 going from 120V to 12V or almost 20 times by going from 230V to 12V. Then they create complex setups with normal household wiring and end up causing fires at what loom like sturdy junctions.
At least LED lights are killing off those dangerous recessed halogens that were so popular for a while.
Some of the lost dangerous things you'll ever encounter are bus bars in large telephone switches providing -48V DC to thousands of lines. Also submarine batteries!
I would also treat hybrid and electric car batteries with extreme caution.
Always great electricity with respect and always assume things are live.
For enthusiasts on thia forum the one thing to always remember: unplug the appliance before touching any internal components! Always! Never trust a switch to isolate things safely. All they do is interrupt a circuit. if they're on the neutral or if you've a supply that has two lives (hots) you can be in a. Lot of trouble If you touch something.
Also grounding/earthing! Always, always, always ensure that your metal cased appliances are correctly grounded. Ever use a washing machine in any situation that bypasses the grounding on a socket outlet. This is almost impossible here as we don't have a concept of ungrounded outlets or plugs but it's common enough to see "cheater plugs" in old US buildings - I saw plenty in Massachusetts and also to see grounded schuko plugs inserted into non grounded socket outlets in older buildings in continental Europe.
Also RCD or GFCI protection.
In Europe it's fairly normal these days to gave GFCI / RCD protection on socket outlet circuits but if you don't and you're working on washing machines whatever part of the world you are in, at the very least get a GFCI or RCD outlet fitted or use a plug in equivalent and test it.
The advice here on RCDs is that they should all be tested when the clocks go back or forward for the start / end of daylight saving time. That two seconds of inconvenience can save someone's life.[this post was last edited: 9/25/2017-13:02]
@tolivac. 400Hz is commonly used in aviation systems generally.
You can even buy 400Hz vacuum cleaners !
https://www.averncleaningsupplies.com/RSAV130-1-Aviation-Back-Pack-Vacuum-Cleaner-Numatic
110V 400Hz
Also in the UK and Ireland portable equipment used on construction sites is all connected via an isolating transformer that is centre tapped giving you 110V 50Hz with two hots with about 55V to ground.
So there's a whole range of 110V 50Hz power tools used here that are not suitable for use with US 120V 60Hz grounded neutral supplies.
You can even buy 400Hz vacuum cleaners !
https://www.averncleaningsupplies.com/RSAV130-1-Aviation-Back-Pack-Vacuum-Cleaner-Numatic
110V 400Hz
Also in the UK and Ireland portable equipment used on construction sites is all connected via an isolating transformer that is centre tapped giving you 110V 50Hz with two hots with about 55V to ground.
So there's a whole range of 110V 50Hz power tools used here that are not suitable for use with US 120V 60Hz grounded neutral supplies.
Falling of a building
First of all, 5 stories are verry much survivable. Not likely, but possible. I mean, there were people surviving skyscraper suicide jumps by landing on a car legs first. The legs and hips were mush, but the car roof in combination with their legs reduced the decelaration enough to allow the important stuff to survive.
And both mains supplies are survivable, it depends on the path the elctricity takes through your body.
If it goes around your heart and core muscles, for example once across your hand, there can be heavy damage to your hand, and your body certanly will not be comfortable, but death for a healthy adult is unlikely.
I had a small mains shock from a faulty range hood once; I went to switch it off, and while switching, I touched the metal housing. Something shorted, the case became life, my hand jolted back and the RCD tripped. I had a nice big burned spot on my finger, my hand hurt as hell, but otherwise, I was fine (though incredibly startled).
Would the path of electricity been through my body to ground, big difference.
Same with lightning strikes onto people: Even direct hits ar verry much survivable, though at tens of thousands of amps and hundreds of thousands of volts, that should be impossible.
For example, if the bolt strikes your right shoulder, and your right hand is conductivley coupled to ground (for example a street sign) and you are wearing thick rubber sole boots, the majority of the power will go the way of least resitence, through your arm and out the hand.
Severe burns and nerve damage on your arm, but survivable.
If you'd have your left hand grounded in that scenario, the current would pass through your chest, messing up heart and breathing, resulting in verry likel death.
That is why power lines are that deadly: Most of the time, the path to ground is through your entire body.
First of all, 5 stories are verry much survivable. Not likely, but possible. I mean, there were people surviving skyscraper suicide jumps by landing on a car legs first. The legs and hips were mush, but the car roof in combination with their legs reduced the decelaration enough to allow the important stuff to survive.
And both mains supplies are survivable, it depends on the path the elctricity takes through your body.
If it goes around your heart and core muscles, for example once across your hand, there can be heavy damage to your hand, and your body certanly will not be comfortable, but death for a healthy adult is unlikely.
I had a small mains shock from a faulty range hood once; I went to switch it off, and while switching, I touched the metal housing. Something shorted, the case became life, my hand jolted back and the RCD tripped. I had a nice big burned spot on my finger, my hand hurt as hell, but otherwise, I was fine (though incredibly startled).
Would the path of electricity been through my body to ground, big difference.
Same with lightning strikes onto people: Even direct hits ar verry much survivable, though at tens of thousands of amps and hundreds of thousands of volts, that should be impossible.
For example, if the bolt strikes your right shoulder, and your right hand is conductivley coupled to ground (for example a street sign) and you are wearing thick rubber sole boots, the majority of the power will go the way of least resitence, through your arm and out the hand.
Severe burns and nerve damage on your arm, but survivable.
If you'd have your left hand grounded in that scenario, the current would pass through your chest, messing up heart and breathing, resulting in verry likel death.
That is why power lines are that deadly: Most of the time, the path to ground is through your entire body.
Back when I worked for Goldstar (LG) in Alabama building TV's I made a connection across my heart from the test cable in my left hand to something live inside the TV with my right hand....they were plugged in on the assembly line with their backs off so we could adjust them. I was the color/tint guy and had to stick a clip inside to switch some things around. I blacked out for a second or two. I remember feeling the hair on my neck stand up. I was standing and the shock made me lean backwards which broke the "circuit". It made me feel weird after but it didn't hurt! I really think it caused a cardiac arrhythmia for a brief moment and knowing what I know about the heart now after working in cardiology for over 12 years.
400Hz vacuums-In the US its ProTeam,and NSS(National Super Service) come to mind for 400Hz aircraft vacuums.
A time I got bit by 230V was here at the transmitter-replacing a vacuum tune capacitor in one of the transmitters-My hand brushed against a 230V blower motor terminal-felt like I was kicked by a horse-Pissed me off bigtime-the 230V supply breaker to that Tx was off just like that!!!So now I DOUBLE check the breakers have been shut off before working inside-was a good reminder to check and make sure the power is ALL THE WAY off before working inside!Was a job left over from the last shift.Don't assume they shut off the power-CHECK FOR YOURSELF!!!!Again--that was a hard reminder.Next time you get bit------you might not survive.
The main thing on this site is :
Unplug before going anywhere near the innards of a washing machine, dryer or any other appliance. You've risks of both shock and loss of fingers in belts or other moving parts or burns from heaters.
Also be very wary of capacitors! You can get a fairly nasty blast from those when the power is off.
Unplug before going anywhere near the innards of a washing machine, dryer or any other appliance. You've risks of both shock and loss of fingers in belts or other moving parts or burns from heaters.
Also be very wary of capacitors! You can get a fairly nasty blast from those when the power is off.
Great discussion and great replies thus far! 
Also thank you for those links, Foraloysius.
Also thank you for those links, Foraloysius.
You're welcome. Are you considering purchasing one of those? You will have to keep in mind that European Whirlpools are not well known for their quality.
Can second that
Had 3 service calls on ours in 3 years time.
Had 3 service calls on ours in 3 years time.
I am considering one, but nothing is final or definite.
When you guys say Indeist, does this mean its the design before Whirlpool? Or is Whirlpool now making the Indeist design?
When you guys say Indeist, does this mean its the design before Whirlpool? Or is Whirlpool now making the Indeist design?
This machine was designed before Whirlpool took over Indesit and is still made in the same factory, but that factory is now owned by Whirlpool.
