The ever increasing "middle class"

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

Cybrvanr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
1,287
There has been a good debate over if the economy is doing good, and if we are benefitting from it. Over the past 20 years or so, we have lost a tremendous amount of manufacturing, engineering, and many other jobs that supported the middle class. The thought is that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is pretty much evaporating. I sort of agree with this to a point. It seems as though what we call the middle class has gotten a little inflated.

50 years ago, what was considered "middle class" was living in a 3 bedroom / 1bath rancher that had about 1200 sq/ft. That home would be placed on a 1/4 acre lot, and have 1, maybe 2 cars in the driveway. A nice car for family outings, and a compact for those "around town" trips. Today, this perspective is totally changed. The "middle class" is not happy until there's more than 4 bedrooms and 2 full baths, and more than 2400 sq/ft of space inside the home. The driveway is filled with 2 and frequently 3 high-end vehicles. What's even more alarming is what I call the "turnover" rate of appliances and furnishings within the home. People like to replace things today just because they don't like their appearance, or they are just simply tired of them, not because they wore out or malfunctioned. Of course, planned obslencence from the technology industry doesn't help much.

Previously, teenagers had to work to purchase their first automobiles. Most teenagers ended up driving old junkers that they cobbled together from scrap parts...that is if they even had their own vehicle. Nowadays, the parents buy the teenarger a brand new car, and pays for all the insurance, service, and fuel costs! While technology and innovation has driven the price of products down, which allows product replacement to happen faster, we still expend a tremendous amount of expense replacing products, and filling the home with an exess if things we really don't need. I just recently acquired a Kitchen-aid dishwasher from that was almost 30 years old, and in pristine shape. I talked to the guy who owned it, and he got rid of it because his wife didn't like the fact that it LOOKED "old". No amount of pleading with her would change her mind, so out on the curb it went. This happens way too frequently with not just diswashers. Us, as Americans buy more stuff these days that we really don't need. The stuff usually ends up by the curbside before we even finsh making payments on it, so we can make way for more new "stuff"

50 years ago, we would be happy to have an old dishwasher, if any at all, and if it broke, we'd be repairing it, not replacing it! That, and most people stood around wondering how in the heck they would fill all that empty space in their 1200 square foot home.

Luckily, there's plenty of "junk" going around for people like us that are scavengers due to our inflated views of what is considered "middle class" There's plenty of cool "retro" stuff out there that is in great shape that we too, can live the same life without spending the enormous amount for it.

I currently live in a home that a man built brand new 60 years ago. He lived in the home with his wife, and raised two boys in it, retired, and then I bought it. The home only has about 1000 square feet...it's really small by today's standards, but it's plenty big for me being single. It's also the typical size of the homes around me. The curious thing about this is that one doesn't see generations growing up in the neighborhood any more like this. Typically people view the homes in this neighborhood today are known as "starter homes" and as soon as a couple starts having children, they think the house is too "small" and they move farther out the city into a bigger home....it's quite obvious from this that what we consider middle class has become rather inflated!

Can we sustain this spending spree? I think not! The entire reason why this exists is that Americans are spending money we don't have! Much of what fills the typical "McMansion" is bought on credit, and those products are manufactured overseas. Basically the "loop" that keeps the economy going has been broken.
 
Yay!

Thank you so much for this post; hopefully, some people might see the light. Sounds like you would agree with the principal of the high school in Long Island, NY who cancelled the senior prom because he felt that it had become just another example of excess in our society ($20,000 beach house rentals for after-prom party, etc). It's like Americans have this empty void in their lives that they are trying to fill with STUFF. Maybe they should try taking a walk with their kids, or taking an elderly person out for lunch, they might realize that the void can only be filled by what you give to others, not get.....SteveD
 
Excellent posts guys

And it goes lock step with my previous rantings of people at WalMart with their carts overflowing with JUNK.

Also as I have mentioned before, the many couples and women that I know that "gotta have" the Viking range and Sub-Zero refrigerator but rarely cook. I guess it's for their two (catered) dinner parties they have a year. Gotta look good for the guests.

When I was starting out I had a table that my mom and dad gave me (I still have it, although disassembled, it is a 50's table with leaf), one end table, a TV stand, TV, one chair, my bed, and a table lamp (also which I still have, right next to my desk as I type). I purchased a two story townhouse that was 1100 square feet. I lived there for 7 years. The first month I carried the lamp from my living room up to the bedroom when it was time to go to sleep, until I could afford a second lamp. Was I unhappy? No! I was on my own in my own place!

But people don't want to live that way. They expect a completely furnished home, with high end everything, and often, the woman does not want to work. So credit solves the issue.

My old girlfriend's parents remarked to her that I lived in a "dump". Supposedly most of her old boyfriends hocked their kids futures to have a new place filled with new furniture. It was interesting that this came from people whose own house was a Studio City nightmare of bad leather sofas that their two dogs constantly peed up, slivery "antiqued" would flooring that you had to keep your shoes on for, a "room extension" so poorly executed that a tall guy like me hit his head on the roof and it was always about 50 degrees in, and a family room that was so narrow that you were about 4 feet away from the TV set max. And they called my little place a dump. Guess if I lived on the edge of bankruptcy like them and their friends, I'd have been a hero.

At the same time as I was living in a townhouse, my good friend, same age, also bought a townhouse. Of course, his was a luxury townhouse with new berber carpet and was 2100 sq feet. He also leased a new Mercedes, and bought the best furniture. I find out years later that his dad was always bailing him out financially.

Speaking of middle class, there are new homes in Brea not far from where I live. These are not quite McMansions, although close. They are about 1800 square foot and up, of course, on small pieces of land. The sign out in front proudly proclaims, "From the low millions". Insane.

Most of the homes bought now are people that made $300k from their last home sale and plow it back into a newer home. I hope there is not another 1992 again, when home prices fell a good 30%+, some people lost alot of money. 30% of $200,000 is $60,000. 30% of one million is $300,000!!!! Say goodbye to a big chunk of retirement!

It also amazes me that people don't get our hobby, of enjoying design, function, restoration, use and just plain looking at the best of our past. They think, why don't they just get rid of that old junk? Then they complain that they are bored with life and have no interests. Astonishing.
 
People and Stuff

It's amazing to walk through the thrift stores and see the vast ammounts of junk (and not very old junk) that people have "donated": Ugly knockoffs and kitsch. Shoddy appliances (mostly coffeemakers and toasters) and the acres and acres of TVs.

The trouble is that people are deluded: Sure, they may have a bigger home than Mom 'n Pop had, but both parents have to work to keep it. They may have the swanky cars and plasma TVs, but they also have credit cards - a phenomina that really only came into its own in the late 60's. Prior to that, there were store cards, and installment payment, but they were fairly difficult to get.

But because they have all this stuff, they think they are "rich" or "upper middle class", and they continue to act against their own best interests.

When trouble happens, they play the blame game. I had an idiot plumber at my old house try to tell me that the reason "society had gone to hell" was soley because of women working. Since I don't personally think society has gone to hell (it's just gotten a lot tackier) I ignored him, but that was his pat, simple reason for his shortcomings in the economic arena. It's not his fault, it's those pesky ladies. Since there's only like three women plumbers in Seattle, their efficiency, quality of work, and prices must be astounding to have impacted his business so negatively.

When it's not that, it's something else. When all else fails, it's the gays. Any simple-minded explanation that stops them from having to consider complex issues.

I wish Americans would wake up and see that the "way of life" is becoming more and more shallow and difficult to maintain, and that we are being played for chumps by the ultra-rich, the multinational corporations and (in certain select circumstances) their churches. But why wake up when you've got 136 channels of crap?
 
I agree with what has been said previously...

Where can I start on the "kids get too much today" subject. The stuff I see parents handing their kids today is almost obscene. Even though my parents could easily afford to give us most of what we wanted, they didn't. It was "earn the money to get what you want yourself, you'll enjoy your possessions much more when you realize you earned it!" Even my college education was only paid 50% by my parents, they made sure I had to work while in school. I considered myself lucky to have this subsidy, I know many that paid for their education all by themselves. When I graduated, I entered the same field my father was in, aviation. I told him I was going to apply at his airline and he said "No son of mine is going to piggyback on my tail, if you apply to Braniff, I'll give you a bad reference". So eventually I got my start at North Central.
Today, lots of parents pay not only for cars for their kids, but also 100% of the education so they won't have to work while in school. Then when the kids graduate they give their kids huge down payments for their first house. I have a freind who is a stock broker/investment advisor and I asked him how come you see these 20-25 year olds driving around in Mercedes sport coupes, BMW's, etc. He said "easy, Mommy & Daddy, most people that come to him in that age group come in with the money that their parents gave them. After college, it was "Here's half a mil, have a nice life". He said it's amazing how often he sees this.
I have a cousin that is a mold remediation attorney with a major insurance company and she has two sons that are both very sucessful, each making over $150K per year. She and her husband are retiring this year. It took them until age 60 to get where they could retire. She said her and her husband needed a retirement income of $6K per month, each, to retire. I said that is an awful lot of money considering their house and cars are paid off, and she said "Well you never know when the boys might want something....". Enough said....
About appliances....
A lot of appliances these days are made with the toss & replace mentality. I had a Braun and a Krups coffeemaker that I paid over $100. each for when new. One lasted two years before the pot warmer gave out, the other made it three years before the heater gave out and wouldn't heat the coffee. I bought a Sunbeam C-30A on Ebay for $20. and it not only makes better coffee that the earlier pots I owned, but it will probably be the last coffee pot we will ever buy as it is so well made.
Same with our WP washer, when it needed repairs I only spent about $25. on it and did the job myself. Before I investigated DIY repairs, I had a repair shop told me to replace the unit as I'll be over $300. to fix. I think most people would have immediately went to the store looking for a new washer. When the ones we have now finally can't be repaired anymore, I'll look for a vintage unit.
 
I bought a new sofa 10yr ago and a new bed 15yr ago. sold the sofa this year and bought an antique one. Everything else is hand me downs. But they remind me of someone or a certian time. My mother bought my den sofa about 20yr ago probably for around $200 and its still in great shape, clean, and sleeps better than my new Serta mattress! Quality tends to hang around longer and I dont care if its in style or not! You guys have a good weekend. Quality friends tend to hang around longer too!
 
Although your plumber Dan is a bit misguided, I think his idea of why America is going to pot is probably on the right track. Him mentioning of women getting out of the home in working is probably a little short-sighted into the problem we have of parents not raising the children. Previously, it was the mother's responsibility to raise the kids, but in a two income household, it ends up being the daycare center :( That's NOT to say a FATHER cannot do the job either. My thought is that at least ONE of the parents needs to be at home taking care of the kids...well, at least till they enter school age is my thinking.

One of the worst parts about raising kids in modern life is divorce. A single parent attempting to raise a household of kids simply cannot pull it off effectively. That single person has to work their a$$ off to maintain an income good enough to keep the kids materially supported (Pay the housing costs, food, heating, etc) the problem is that the children are rarely ever emotionally supported. Chances are, these kids, which are poorly discliplined, and starving for attention, are the ones the school system wants to drug up because they are "hyper". Even the kids that are raised in two parent homes rarely ever spend time with their families. For some reason, parents want to fill every last second of a child's spare time up with some type of organized activity, be it a sport, church activities, scouting, etc. While doing a couple of these activities are nice, filling the child's entire spare time with everything is NOT! Much of these times, these events are just used as another way to get the kids away from the house so mom & dad won't hafta worry about them.

You also mention the TV Dan, which is almost as bad as cramming the kids day full of crap. My sister was using the TV as a babysitter until she saw the error in her ways a few years back. It took a while to lean the kids off the tube, but today, she is thankful she did it. My nieces are getting better grades in school, and are MUCH better disciplined. It did take some effort though. My sister and my brother in law actually had to get down on the floor to play with them and spend time entertaining and teaching them. Yes, some of the things they wanted to do were not getting done as much, but if this bothers you then YOU SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO HAVE CHILDREN!!!

One of the fondest memories I enjoy from my childhood is taking road trips and spending time with my family. Many TV shows, movies, and other media outlets make fun of families that spend time together. One of their biggest parodies is making fun of a camping trip that goes wrong. The percieption is that kids don't want and don't like to do things together as a family, but this is totally false. Family camping trips were one of the outings that I enjoyed the most as a child, and they rarely ever went as bad as they made them out to be in the TV shows! I wonder how many childhood memories are made like this on the soccer field, or at band practice, or all the other organized activities the kids are run ragged doing?!?!

To summarize it, kids need to be raised by their PARENTS, not the TV, not a daycare center, not the soccer coach, and certailny not the streets!
 
This is an issue that has long ben on my mind. I feel as I am living in a world that I don't understand anymore. My childhood friend and neighbor just spent over $150,000 for a glorious built in pool, spa and outdoor kitchen and now is undertaking a $200,000 kitchen renovation. She lives in an area of thirty to forty something couples who seem to make a ton of money and need to constantly keep spending. Her three kids have no idea how to entertain themselves and simply must have everything NOW. Sadly, that is very common in my area and I am astounded at the numbe of families in my town with stay at home moms and multi million dollar homes - Perhaps all that new Wall Street Money.....

I do believe there are many causes for what we see today as a throw away society. We receive constant stimulation from every greedy stupid reality based show on TV that the only thing that matters is knifing your co workers in the back to get the "big prize". We work harder and longer than any other nation - even surpassing Japan, and for many of us every year finds us slightly more downwardly mobile than the last. I know in my case I work more hours than I ever thought possible and the raise I received this year has already been eaten up by the rise in home heating oil prices as well as the cost of groceries and commuting to and from work. The divide between rich and poor has grown exponentially, there is almost no more middle class and we are raising generation after generation of boorish, spoiled and mannerless children who will grow into like kind adults.
We work so long and hard that there is no time for all the things we were taught were important - family, leisure and just sometimes being.....

In my town I see the simpler cape cod and ranch style houses bought by builders and mowed down with monstrosities rising in their wake. I was run off the road the other day by a cell phone gabbing mom in an SUV the size of a U-Haul truck who decided the STOP sign obviously didn't mean her. Luckily I was able to stop before she broadsided me - missing me by fractions of an inch then giving me the finger and screaming something I could not hear ....

We use technology to do more work faster so we can do more work faster. But I am beginning to think how is this really improving my day to day life? We propel ourselves madly from one chore to another and where are we at the end of the day?

Sorry for the rant........but sometimes you just have to let fly.
 
Not all single mothers---

started out that way.

My father died when I was five.

My mother was long-sighted, and had a BA and an MA before she married and had my sister and me.

My best woman friend had her BA before she married and had children, and a divorce. She is not a hussy.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
I've heard this before.

I agree we as a society need to reconsider certain attributes of our society. But You hear this from people who are in middle age. Acting like the 1950s were the beginning of time and that the world should be patterened after the childhood they lived. Lets look at what people were doing in 1925 or 1900 or 1875 or 1800! It is just as relavent. What were your parents doing, their parents. Maybe it is just a baby boomer thing? Perhaps your parents or grand parents thought you were a spoiled brat because you had clothes and toys that were "store bought" and you were a family that didn't have to use a horse and buggy to commute.

Sure some of the appliances and furnishings that were made 40 years ago may still work, but who wants to have to use them? And some of them were made with volatile and dangerous substances. Asbestos, lead paint. Remember the Westclox clocks that had nuclear "glo-in-the-dark" numbers. creepy. To be able to replace furnishings and appliances is, mostly a sign of success in freedom of choices. Yes we have "lost" jobs in manufacturing. There was also a time when people had to shovel coal to heat their homes or cut down and burn wood to "get by"! Who would tolerate that now. simply turn your thermostat and it is temperature controlled which creates a more stable environment. And it is cleaner. It used to be that a factory of people were needed to manufacture a car or a toaster oven. now with computers and robots few have to put up with that drudgery. And now, via the internet, simply push a button and order and it will be delivered to your home. who wouldn't want that? As long as we are recycling the products the most they can be, there is nothing really wrong with buying new every couple of years. In the 1950s and even the 1970s we as a nation weren't recycling. THAT is a crime against the environment and future generations.
We as a society need to change, that is for sure but asking people to "be happy" with what they have isn't going to cut it. We all need to get a back-bone and demand universal health coverage, cars fueled on alternative fuels that are quieter, restrictions on ANY religion involvement in government, restricting our government to protecting the rights of individual PEOPLE and the environment, NOT corporations as they have way too much support already, Reinstate the Truth in media doctrine that was outed in the 80s, and get rid of the pathetic pointless-competetiveness attitude that has spread like a sick disease in this country. America has great potential but at the moment it is certainly not the creme de' la creme. Turn off the Fox "news"/republican propaganda/weak ego prop up channel and take action.
Do you recycle as much as possible? Do you drive a fuel efficient auto? Have you done the most to make your home, what ever it may be, as efficient as possible. More importantly are we demanding our government to make sure that new products are efficient and safe as possible? I know I haven't, and I am doing more to be involved with my government. There is a disgusting atttitude in this country that just seems to like ruining the environment and endangering public safety. There are corporations and individuals who will spend millions perhaps billions of money on lying to the public about the safety or appropriateness of their product when if they were just straight forward, told the truth, and did the most they could to make a product safe it would be so much more efficient and less expensive for them.
We can do better! We have before. I guess it will take crystal clear proof that climate change has happened (even though we have been warned), religious christian freaks have corrupted our governing sytem, and a bankrupt government has left us all vulnerable to natural disasters before change will happen to mobilize people to protect and reinstate their rights in this country.
We can do better! And we deserve better.

Thank-you
 
Life-Long Dreams

The following is something I was going to post on my "Big Box Mart" thread. But after carefully reading your post, I whole-heartedly believe it belongs right here. First of all I have to agree with Steve D of Albany that our worth lies not in what we have but what we give. I have had two life long dreams. One is to be a paramedic, because I have always wanted to be able to help people in their darkest hours. The only problem is that I would probably burn out from this very quickly. The second is to start my own business in woodworking. Most of you are probably saying yeah good luck with that one, and frankly I've been told that for years. I have a small workshop full of tools and machines that I began collecting years ago. These tools have been sitting in there collecting dust, and I don't mean sawdust for the very fact that I've listened to the mindless, meritless, and talentless bulls**t of these persons while in the mean time, other woodworkers have kicked butt and taken names. They have made top quality items that have earned special places in the hearts of the American customer. Stuff that Wal Mart doesn't sell and wouldn't sell. I mean for God's sake, I hear everywhere about how fed up people are getting with seeing "Made in China" on everything. I also think people are getting disgusted about the job Market and the stagnation of wages, and frankly, I feel the same. I need to tell you something though, and please forgive me if I step on any toes, because I do not wish to offend anyone. For anyone who watches The Discovery Channel's "American Chopper", you must know by now that Paul Teutel and his family did not create Orange County Choppers by building rice rockets. His Bikes are very unique. Otherwise, he would have been out of business years ago, or never started. Norm Abram Makes high quality furniture and it's not all everyday run of the mill. Otherwise, who would bother watching "New Yankee Workshop"? I guess what I'm saying is that yes, the economy sucks, yes, China has some markets cornered, yes, some people will shop the big boxes until the very end because they are too f*****g cheap to shop elsewhere. However, can make a stand. Frankly, I'm amazed at what a difference a just handful of people can make. we can buy American made products whenever possible, shop stores that buy those products, and frankly, If you have some talent that you think could make you some extra cash, or even a living, and the ambition to go with it, I say, go for it. I'm still young and would like to see some great things materialize. As for me, I'm not quitting my day job to make things out of wood, but I sure will enjoy getting started as a hobby and seeing where it ends up. It may or may not work, but it won't work if not tried. If all goes well, maybe you can come visit me in Seattle and buy something awesome, or just look.
 
knitwits....

I say go for it. My only advice on something like this is to have a steady job first, and do your dream in your spare time. Then when it kicks in, you go full time. If you don't, the lean times will kill you. Most startup businesses fail because of undercapitization and people jump in with everything and lose everything. Do it step by step.

I have very good friends that owned a shop specializing in vintage collectibles. Then they started building their own Moderne furiture, staring with wood coffee tables and working into couches. This is extremely nice stuff. Their company makes it all themselves. They have a big furniture show back east twice a year. If you wanted new Moderne, don't want to pay for the vintage stuff and you want to really use it, these people have it. They work very hard and some long hours, but the business is all theirs. They have no problem finding customers and the big movie studios use their stuff too.

Good luck, we need more people that think like you do.
 
Thanks Kevinpreston, this means a lot to me. I definately have an artistic side, and whole-heartedly believe that many people do, and given a chance could really shine. Even if the business doesn't work out, I'll have a cool hobby. I'm still young too, so if nothing else, I may still train to be a paramedic. I hear the Seattle Fire Department as well as American Medical Response are always looking for new people. I currently work for the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services as a Caretaker for disabled and elderly persons, so I'm already employed.
 
P.S. Part of my woodworking has been and will continue to be furniture restoration. I enjoy fixing up something old probably every bit as much as making something new.
 
Certainly not Glenn, Each and EVERY ONE of us must have at least something with some special meaning to us.
P.S. Happy Upcoming Birthday!
 
Credit Card Debt

One of the most appalling misuses of credit cards I ever saw (and saw regularly) was using them to pay for wedding receptions.

When I worked at the Olympic Hotel here in Seattle, we did a huge amount of weddings, and they were quite expensive (The hotel is a beautiful old building with an amazing ballroom) People had to pre-pay for these events, and I took many, many payments where I would be given six or seven credit cards, and would be told that I should charge $5,500 on card A, $2,700 on card B, $8,700 on card C, etc, etc, etc. Most of those receptions were the people who were doing the big thing to impress the co-workers. I have often wondered what the survival rate of those marriages was. On more than one occassion I have had people tell me that they had their wedding at the hotel and that it was the best part of the marriage ;-)

Weddings and funerals are amazing rip-offs anyway. When my dad died, he had left instructions to go with the cheapest everything, but it was still $5k or thereabouts (luckily, he had a nice insurance policy and his pension contines for my mom, so it wasn't a burden to pay that). It's unfortunate when you have to go into debt at the end of someone's life, but it's terrible when you have to start a new life with a frivilous debt.
 
Interesting thread. The item about people spending like there's no tomorrow, doesn't mean the middle class has gotten decadent. It means that the upper class has grown a bit. But a growing number of people barely get by on a two-income family, with little more in the way of material goods than people had 50 years ago. What's going on is that the middle class is shrinking. A small number of former middle class have become wealthy, but the majority have found their incomes shrinking and their material circumstances getting actively worse. I see evidence of this all over the Bay Area in California, and it's downright depressing.

Though it is also true that people are more spoiled now, in all ways; and kids included.

More detailed analysis in a day or two...
 

Latest posts

Back
Top