Thoughts on the Goodman GSX13 Air Conditioner

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washman

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This unit is matched to the 96% AFUE furnace.

The unit is rated at 13 SEER, the bottom level for their efficiency. These units are not sellable in the SW or SE part of the US.

The installer placed it on a composite pad on the back side of the house and ran the lineset through the wall up over the ceiling, then down to the air handler. There is no TXV on this setup, just a .057 orifice controlling the flow of R410A to the evap coil.

Both the condenser and evap coils are copper with aluminum fins.

The unit is 1.5 ton with a single stage Copeland Scroll compressor and a single speed made in China PSC fan motor.

I do notice that R410a does not pull down as quickly as R22 did at the old condo. Nor does the suction line "sweat" in dank weather. However the air coming from the vents certainly is cool. The installing contractor came 3 weeks ago to charge up the unit as they could not do a full charge in the dead of winter when it was physically installed. I'm not sure what the total charge is but he used some different gagets to measure 'superheat" and supercool rather than the old school set of mechanical gauges that I am accustomed to.

The warranty is full 5 years, 10 on the compressor. It is pretty quiet outside, I'd guess the fan speed to be about 1000 or so RPM. I would expect pretty good longevity as this unit in W PA will run say 3-4 months per year and with the house being as well insulated, I might not be running it say as much as I did in the condo.
 
Anything higher then 13 SEER isn't really necessary for cooler climates like ours. The 13 SEER units are already very cheap to run compared to older 10 SEER and below condensers.

R410 and R22 should have NO difference in "pull down" (I assume you're talking about supply temp and not how fast it's cooling the house down right?) And if there's any bit of that suction line exposed to the humid air it SHOULD be sweating or that to me is a red flag that something's not working right.

Did your condo system have a TXV? Those usually start cooling much quicker then orifice based systems since they hold the pressure in the high side while off so it doesn't have to build up pressure each time it cycles back on.

Have you checked your supply air temp yet?
 
Negative

Condo had an R22 Sears/Whirlpool unit with inefficient furnace and no TXV, just a cap line. Run from outdoor unit there to evap coil was about 13 ft.

At the new location, I would guess about a 27 ft total run from outdoor unit to evap coil.

Pull down, I was referring to how quickly, based on "hand feel" the temp of the discharge air was from the ceiling mounted outlets. Given that, I neglected to realize that the ducts are indeed up in the attic and it is hot up there with the sun shining. Thus the hotter air needs to be displaced, pulled into the air handler and pushed out for a bit before I notice a good cooldown.

Have not checked on supply air temp as of yet. Like I said, a while back the HVAC contractor came out and completed the system charge to correct capacity.

Once it is percolating, so to speak, the air is quite cool indeed and the t-stat is satisfied with a 10-20 minute cycle time with about 45 min to 60 min off time. Temp stays about 2 degrees either side of t-stat setting.
 
It's either undercharged or it has too much airflow.

I think that .57 orifice is TOO BIG for 1.5 tons and causing it to run a high suction pressure.
It's either that or it's undercharged and/or it has too much airflow.
If the air isn't coming out of the vents like a jet then i'd bet on that orifice.
It's also possible they installed it on a cold day and just never got the charge right.
BUT.
That orifice......... I don't like it, i'm thinking high 40's and .50 max for the orifice for 1.5 tons 410a.

Call Goodman first if you can and confirm that orifice size.

If it gets to the point you have to call someone else out, INSIST they check the charge using the superheat method.
And make sure they have some smaller orifices on the truck.

If they push back AT ALL on that call someone else.

They should be able to swap that orifice and adjust the charge in the $300 range unless it's just hard to access and work on.

They might actually have to REMOVE freon with the proper orifice.
 
The 1.5 ton 410a Goodman condenser is shipped with a .51 orifice.
That WILL make a difference.

If the set up has a 13 ft lineset and an oversized orifice that will result in high suction pressures with the factory charge of refrigerant.
Even if he removed some freon to compensate for that short lineset the .57 orifice still puts the system on the edge at best.

Are you SURE it has a 57 orifice and is it a Goodman coil?
What was the temperature outside on the day they installed it?

I've been out of the A/C game since 2010 after 21 years but i think i'm in the ballpark.
Modern systems are VERY sensitive and you can't fudge em' with refrigerant charge variations like back in the day.
 
Wil check the orifice tonight for sure

13ft line set>>>>OLD place

approx 27 ft>>>>>NEW place.
 
27 ft that's fine.
Yea, check that orifice you may have mistaken a one for a seven though you'll never know for sure until you're holding the orifice in your hand.
Hopefully the installer installed the 51 that came with the condenser in the coil at the time.
Maybe you could ask him.

If the orifice can't be CONFIRMED then the first step is to have someone put their gauges on it and see what's happening.
If the superheat is off, it's not overcharged, the airflow is normal, and she's running high a suction pressure then the orifice is probably the issue.

Hopefully it's just slightly undercharged for some reason. That will be the most painless scenario.
 
I doubt it is undercharged

because the HVAC guy came out late April when it was about 80 degrees and added 410A to the system. It was installed over the winter, physically speaking, but they did not add additional 410A until late April like I said.

the HVAC guy DId have his gauge set, digital, and mentioned something about supeheat being ok.
 
Of course, I forgot your ductwork was in the attic. Our second story system is too and it takes about 10 minutes if it hasn't run in a long time on a warm day for it to blow cool. The suction line is of course warm until it has been running awhile in that case.

The other thing that 2packs4sure reminded me of is much of the time contractors don't set the cooling blower speed correctly and leave it on the high setting which unless it's a 3.5-5 ton system (depending on how big the furnace/blower is) is WAY too much airflow for the size system it is, usually causing reduced dehumidification and sometimes excess noise if the ductwork can't handle the airflow.
I've had to change more blowers to the low or medium speed than I can count because it was just left at default causing what I just stated above.
 
One thing I noticed

is the air coming out of the condenser is warm. That would suggest good heat transfer and good airflow on the outside unit.

Like I said, this whole setup is single stage, no 2 stage or modulation of anything.

I noticed a tad bit of condensation on the suction line coming from the evap coil in the utility room.
Keep in mind this is a bit of a lengthy run from there to the outside unit.

Airflow from all registers is quite strong. I'm not certain of the inside fan RPM, I know it can be adjusted on the control board on the furnace but I'm not about to muck with it. Everything seems to work just fine right now and I'm loathe to upset the apple cart.

Every room has 2 return air vents, one up top and one close to the floor. The upper most intake can be closed off to where only air entering from bottom is allowed. The main air return grills are in the living room. Both of those are fixed open. No shutoff here. The HVAC contractor certainly has a thing about return air! Most houses, especially Ryan homes, have at most ONE return inlet.

One thing for sure is the Aprilaire filter is mucho buckage! Not a 99 cent piece of junk from walmart, this thing stops pretty much any dirt, pet dander, you name it from entering the ductwork. I found one on Amazon for something like 32 bucks plus shipping for the genuine article. I think it is MERV 13 or something like that. Never had one before, I always was used to those 1/2 inch things you get in a 3 pack at a local BIG BOX. Flanders was the brand I always used. This thing is a whole new beast for sure.
 
The good thing is any contractor that pays attention to proper return airflow is probably paying attention to other important things as well. Proper return air ductwork is THE MOST neglected thing when it comes to HVAC installation and design right next to proper equipment sizing and supply sizing.

I have the same Aprilaire filter as you, it originally came with the Merv 11 filter but I got the Merv 13 for the same price on Amazon for about 40 bucks. The good news is they only need changing once a year, maybe longer if your home isn't dusty like ours. I like them because they don't lose much airflow as they get dirty. The 1" Merv 7 Flanders filters are one of the worst for restricting airflow, I stopped using those and went to the Merv 7 True Blue filters when I figured out they were choking out a few furnaces I maintain.
 
My research on all HVAC brands

is a lot of good and bad.

The common denomiator I see is lazy, half ass installation, incomplete setup especially on the newer 2 stage units, poor placement of thermostat, incorrect settings on thermostat.

I've seen rave reviews on Trane and also an equal number of flame posts about Trane.

I know this much, NONE of them, save Carier, Trane, make their own compressors. No one makes their on ignitors, gas valves, or control boards. All that stuff is off the shelf. Heat exchangers and cabinets and grills are about all that is made in house regardless of brand.

Thus the only real world variable is installation. And it is shocking how much is done so poorly out there.
 
And it is shocking how much is done so poorly out there.

The irony to that is the states where HVAC is VERY important such as Arizona, TX, and every southern state all have by far the worst reputation for installation quality.

It's funny to me because they need good cooling which comes by good design and install and that is VERY rare to find there so most people suffer in discomfort and/or very high electric bills due to oversized equipment paired to undersized ductwork and not sealed at all. And those systems barely perform in the heat they get.

Up here in the Chicago area the worst HVAC systems look great compared to some of the better stuff down there. and with the way most HVAC systems and equipment are sized here, when we had the heat wave in 2012 most homes had NO problem at all keeping it at whatever temp was desired when it was up to 105 outside. (even though according to Manual J, cooling equipment in the Chicago area only needs to be sized to maintain setpoint up to 92 degrees ambient).

Basically saying our HVAC systems work better in "southern weather" then systems down there do in their own design conditions.
 
Goodman is the Kia of the hvac world. Nothing wrong with it just more builder grade.subcooling and super heat are as lways the ways to charge a system txv or not. Nothing wrong with a fix orifice.
Check your incoming vs outgoing air. Should be around 20 degrees.don't worry about orifice size let the installer do his job. They made the right move coming back with a load in your house to finish
The charge.
Ten years in the business
Working on hvac and refrigeration
 
Goofed

Unit is GSX130241DB in other words 2 ton, not 1.5 like I thought.

Orifice tag on evap coil shows 057 not sure what is on the condenser unit.
 
Well the good news is that's a matching 24,000 BTU evap. Often times to reach higher efficiencies manufacturers will recommend pairing condensers with larger evaporators. Something I'm not too keen on as that reduces dehumidification abilities.
 
I'm pleased thus far

What I do know about HVAC comes from working with my uncle 30 years ago plus reading my dad's HVAC books (he did commercial work in NYC when he was discharged from USMC).

That and reading all I can I realize HVAC, when done right, requires a ton of skills. Like electrical, plumbing, sheetmetal work, etc. It is a challenging career for sure but I suppose like any other, rewarding when it is done right.

Compared to other abodes and their old school HVAC, this is my first go around with anything remotely related to hi efficiency and energy star rated.

And this is my first Goodman line of HVAC products, certainly the first 96% AFUE furnace. I'm warm when I need to be and cool when I need to be. Combined with a very tight and well insulated home, I surely should save $$$ on heating costs vis a vis the 80's era condo and old school Heil furnace.

Everything seems to work well thus far. How long will it last? Who knows? I know I can get the entire outside unit replaced at alpineiair for $707.99. I'm not too keen on the China sourced motor; ones assembled in Mexico are hard to come by these days (!) who woulda thunk?
 
Are you sure the evaporator is copper tube aluminum fin? I hope it is not for your sake. Goodman (owned by Daikin now) switched over to an all aluminum design a few years back to eliminate formicary corrosion issues.

Don't feel too bad about the compressors not being made by Goodman. Carrier no longer in their residential line makes their own compressors. And Trane (Ingersoll Rand) for the most part no longer makes their own either. Most of their scrolls are made by Alliance which is a joint venture between Trane and Lennox. I believe some of Tranes smaller standard effciency units 2 and 2.5 may still have the good old recip, but even my XV20i has a Danfoss inverter scroll in it.

Carrier kind of had a rough time with their last residential compressors, the Carlyle Millenium scroll.

Did the tech that came to adjust charge come into your house to take a wetbulb (dewpoint) reading to calculate target superheat?
 
my uncle had a saying

"copper is proper"

I have not read much positive stories on the all aluminum microchannel coils used by Trane and Nordyne based on HVAC forums. Now aluminum 3/8 coil I think Carrier used for years and it was pretty durable. But at least one can solder/braze copper. Not sure how you fix a hole in aluminum coils other than a total replace.
 
Wow I've been out of the loop too long, I didn't know Trane started using Microchannel coils. I would probably turn down an install if they showed up with one of those to my house.

I'm glad I got our Trane systems when I did because I've been leery since Ingersoll Rand got a hold of them. They seem to be cheapening things up too much, which is what everyone was afraid of back when IR first got them.

I hate cleaning Spinefin but I think it's the most reliable and fascinating alternative to copper tube w aluminum fin, and I also like our Trane's because the condensers are basically modern GE Weathertron units. (which I think were the neatest units of their time)
 
Years ago

we had a JC Penney window unit(made by GE) and those spiny fin coils were a bear to clean. And if they got mashed somehow, they were pretty much impossible to comb out. IIRC that unit had full copper coils all the way around.
 
Not to worry. Trane has not started using micro-channel evaporators. As far as their residential units, the only thing that I am aware that they had micro-channel in was the cheap XB300 ac units. York also has used them in their residential ac units. United Technologies, Ingersoll-Rand, JCI, Lennox, Rheem, and Nortek are all using micro-channel in their package units though. Some just the condensor, other the evaporator too. Micro-channel coils in refrigeration systems make for a very low overall charge of refrigerant in the system. You cannot pump the entire system charge into these coils the way you could tube and fine coils. Also, charging is very critical on these systems. Too much refrigerant, high head. Too low, you have flashing of liquid before it hits the metering device. I am not the biggest fan of these coils either. Nortek as far as I know is the only manufacturer with micro-channel split system evaps and heat pumps with this coil with their unique defrost system.

Now, as far as all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils go, this change is long overdue. Like you said Washman, copper is great to braze leaks on. Only thing is, nowadays due to the DOE and ever increasing efficiencies, manufacturers are internally rifling the tubing and making the copper tubing paper thin. Combine this with the fact that a lot of the copper is recycled and processed in China, and houses are being built ever tighter with fewer natural fresh air exchanges, also when dealers oversize cooling equipment to the load and have short runtimes and very little condensate "rinsing" the evap coil off, you have a recipe for formicary corrosion.

Many older dehumidifiers used to have a coil of aluminum tubing for the evaporator with no fins, and then a standard copper tube aluminum fin, or painted steel wire fin condensor. These units generally were a lot less prone to refrigerant leakage but less efficient due to the evaporator not having more surface area without fins. This is a big reason why a lot of modern dehumidifiers don't last as long. Also, many refrigerators both new and old have an all aluminum evaporator to better cope with some of the gasses that condense on the evaorator that turn into a mild acidic condensate.

I agree that if things were made the way they used to be, we would not have this problem. But for now, all aluminum evaps are the best solutuion. GE central units, like Gusherb94 said, became Trane's residential division around 1982. Ge had been using all aluminum spine fin since the 1960s. They also started making all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils in the 1970s, Carrier and Bryant used all aluminum coils in some of their outdoor equipment in the 70s if not before then. Carrier had their E-coil and Bryant had the green painted aluminum tube and fin coils. Both Carrier and BDP had all aluminum evaporators like Trane did too in the 1980s. Both Trane and Carrier BDP switched to copper tube evaps in the early 90s as making the aluminum ones was actually more expensive than copper ones. But, by the early to mostly mid 2000s, United Technologies, Trane, and Goodman were starting to experience higher failure rates on evap coils. Trane was the first to come back with all aluminum coils in about 2007-2008. Goodman (now owned by Daikin) made their first all aluminum shortly after. Now, the only manufacturers not using all aluminum evaporator coils is Lennox and I believe JCI for the most part does not either.

Sorry for the very long post. I do not mean to flame you Washman as I have a lot of respect for you and Combo52. Shucks, I own two AWN542, one still new in box, and an AFN51F because both you and John.

Thanks and take care. BTW, congrats on your nice new home. Looks great!
 
Nor worries I like to learn new HVAC ideas anyway

What you outlined goes hand in hand with an oft discussed topic here, which is the overall cheapness and complexity that makes repair very unattractive vis a vis a complete replacement of said unit.

I am not surprised at this in the HVAC industry. Having to comply with EPA regs does put a strain on things and the quest to deliver that last bit of shareholder value puts a dent in design quality.

That being said my dad's 3.5 ton RUUD is circa 2002, all copper inside and out, running full chat in the hot Florida sun. The Copeland scroll (r22) runs very well, no issues, he has a TXV on both outdoor and indoor coils(heat pump). The only weakness is the condenser fan motor. He's on 4 I think since it was installed. He's pretty upset but I told him show me a fractional HP 220V electric motor with ball bearings and I'll buy it and have it installed! My money is safe because no such animal exists. All sleeve bearing. Now this is ok for midwest, northeast perhaps but not down south where these units run a lot. Coupled with the fact his house is circa 1960 with a 3/12 roof pitch and no more space to blow in more insulation, you will have a unit running a LOT unless you keep the tstat at 79 or so.

Ideal? No. Reality? Yes indeed.

My concern is unless technology comes around is it will be far less expensive to replace an entire evap coil or condenser coil than it is to simply solder/braze it and be done. So it goes right back to my first paragraph......landfills pilling up with too costly to repair HVAC units; joining their washing machine brethren.
 
So glad you brought that up. I am actually work in the hvac industry. Deal with that very brand. Great equipment. But, copper tube coils of a somewhat recent vintage are known to leak. Makes me sick to see the warranty piles of those coils. Some were even replacements for replacements. The new all aluminum coils are much more robust and built better than recent copper coils. Aluminum end plates are nice that they don't rust out like the galvanized ones.

Around here Carrier, Bryant, and all of ICP had some of the worst leak rates, until they started using the new all aluminum coils.

As to the Ruud coils, back then, they made some good evaporator coils. In fact, the one at work is from 2002, a 4 ton RCBA coil matched to a Ruud 12 SEER unit from the same year with a Ruud modulating furnace from 02 also. Not a single leak on it.
 
Also, if you have your dad's model # of his outside unit, along with the 4 numbers after the F in the serial, I might have a source for a ball bearing 70 degree C condensor fan motor.
 

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