Thoughts on the Goodman GSX13 Air Conditioner
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gusherb
Well-known member
Well the good news is that's a matching 24,000 BTU evap. Often times to reach higher efficiencies manufacturers will recommend pairing condensers with larger evaporators. Something I'm not too keen on as that reduces dehumidification abilities.
I'm pleased thus far
What I do know about HVAC comes from working with my uncle 30 years ago plus reading my dad's HVAC books (he did commercial work in NYC when he was discharged from USMC).
That and reading all I can I realize HVAC, when done right, requires a ton of skills. Like electrical, plumbing, sheetmetal work, etc. It is a challenging career for sure but I suppose like any other, rewarding when it is done right.
Compared to other abodes and their old school HVAC, this is my first go around with anything remotely related to hi efficiency and energy star rated.
And this is my first Goodman line of HVAC products, certainly the first 96% AFUE furnace. I'm warm when I need to be and cool when I need to be. Combined with a very tight and well insulated home, I surely should save $$$ on heating costs vis a vis the 80's era condo and old school Heil furnace.
Everything seems to work well thus far. How long will it last? Who knows? I know I can get the entire outside unit replaced at alpineiair for $707.99. I'm not too keen on the China sourced motor; ones assembled in Mexico are hard to come by these days (!) who woulda thunk?
What I do know about HVAC comes from working with my uncle 30 years ago plus reading my dad's HVAC books (he did commercial work in NYC when he was discharged from USMC).
That and reading all I can I realize HVAC, when done right, requires a ton of skills. Like electrical, plumbing, sheetmetal work, etc. It is a challenging career for sure but I suppose like any other, rewarding when it is done right.
Compared to other abodes and their old school HVAC, this is my first go around with anything remotely related to hi efficiency and energy star rated.
And this is my first Goodman line of HVAC products, certainly the first 96% AFUE furnace. I'm warm when I need to be and cool when I need to be. Combined with a very tight and well insulated home, I surely should save $$$ on heating costs vis a vis the 80's era condo and old school Heil furnace.
Everything seems to work well thus far. How long will it last? Who knows? I know I can get the entire outside unit replaced at alpineiair for $707.99. I'm not too keen on the China sourced motor; ones assembled in Mexico are hard to come by these days (!) who woulda thunk?
mieletag
Well-known member
Are you sure the evaporator is copper tube aluminum fin? I hope it is not for your sake. Goodman (owned by Daikin now) switched over to an all aluminum design a few years back to eliminate formicary corrosion issues.
Don't feel too bad about the compressors not being made by Goodman. Carrier no longer in their residential line makes their own compressors. And Trane (Ingersoll Rand) for the most part no longer makes their own either. Most of their scrolls are made by Alliance which is a joint venture between Trane and Lennox. I believe some of Tranes smaller standard effciency units 2 and 2.5 may still have the good old recip, but even my XV20i has a Danfoss inverter scroll in it.
Carrier kind of had a rough time with their last residential compressors, the Carlyle Millenium scroll.
Did the tech that came to adjust charge come into your house to take a wetbulb (dewpoint) reading to calculate target superheat?
Don't feel too bad about the compressors not being made by Goodman. Carrier no longer in their residential line makes their own compressors. And Trane (Ingersoll Rand) for the most part no longer makes their own either. Most of their scrolls are made by Alliance which is a joint venture between Trane and Lennox. I believe some of Tranes smaller standard effciency units 2 and 2.5 may still have the good old recip, but even my XV20i has a Danfoss inverter scroll in it.
Carrier kind of had a rough time with their last residential compressors, the Carlyle Millenium scroll.
Did the tech that came to adjust charge come into your house to take a wetbulb (dewpoint) reading to calculate target superheat?
my uncle had a saying
"copper is proper"
I have not read much positive stories on the all aluminum microchannel coils used by Trane and Nordyne based on HVAC forums. Now aluminum 3/8 coil I think Carrier used for years and it was pretty durable. But at least one can solder/braze copper. Not sure how you fix a hole in aluminum coils other than a total replace.
"copper is proper"
I have not read much positive stories on the all aluminum microchannel coils used by Trane and Nordyne based on HVAC forums. Now aluminum 3/8 coil I think Carrier used for years and it was pretty durable. But at least one can solder/braze copper. Not sure how you fix a hole in aluminum coils other than a total replace.
gusherb
Well-known member
Wow I've been out of the loop too long, I didn't know Trane started using Microchannel coils. I would probably turn down an install if they showed up with one of those to my house.
I'm glad I got our Trane systems when I did because I've been leery since Ingersoll Rand got a hold of them. They seem to be cheapening things up too much, which is what everyone was afraid of back when IR first got them.
I hate cleaning Spinefin but I think it's the most reliable and fascinating alternative to copper tube w aluminum fin, and I also like our Trane's because the condensers are basically modern GE Weathertron units. (which I think were the neatest units of their time)
I'm glad I got our Trane systems when I did because I've been leery since Ingersoll Rand got a hold of them. They seem to be cheapening things up too much, which is what everyone was afraid of back when IR first got them.
I hate cleaning Spinefin but I think it's the most reliable and fascinating alternative to copper tube w aluminum fin, and I also like our Trane's because the condensers are basically modern GE Weathertron units. (which I think were the neatest units of their time)
Years ago
we had a JC Penney window unit(made by GE) and those spiny fin coils were a bear to clean. And if they got mashed somehow, they were pretty much impossible to comb out. IIRC that unit had full copper coils all the way around.
we had a JC Penney window unit(made by GE) and those spiny fin coils were a bear to clean. And if they got mashed somehow, they were pretty much impossible to comb out. IIRC that unit had full copper coils all the way around.
mieletag
Well-known member
Not to worry. Trane has not started using micro-channel evaporators. As far as their residential units, the only thing that I am aware that they had micro-channel in was the cheap XB300 ac units. York also has used them in their residential ac units. United Technologies, Ingersoll-Rand, JCI, Lennox, Rheem, and Nortek are all using micro-channel in their package units though. Some just the condensor, other the evaporator too. Micro-channel coils in refrigeration systems make for a very low overall charge of refrigerant in the system. You cannot pump the entire system charge into these coils the way you could tube and fine coils. Also, charging is very critical on these systems. Too much refrigerant, high head. Too low, you have flashing of liquid before it hits the metering device. I am not the biggest fan of these coils either. Nortek as far as I know is the only manufacturer with micro-channel split system evaps and heat pumps with this coil with their unique defrost system.
Now, as far as all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils go, this change is long overdue. Like you said Washman, copper is great to braze leaks on. Only thing is, nowadays due to the DOE and ever increasing efficiencies, manufacturers are internally rifling the tubing and making the copper tubing paper thin. Combine this with the fact that a lot of the copper is recycled and processed in China, and houses are being built ever tighter with fewer natural fresh air exchanges, also when dealers oversize cooling equipment to the load and have short runtimes and very little condensate "rinsing" the evap coil off, you have a recipe for formicary corrosion.
Many older dehumidifiers used to have a coil of aluminum tubing for the evaporator with no fins, and then a standard copper tube aluminum fin, or painted steel wire fin condensor. These units generally were a lot less prone to refrigerant leakage but less efficient due to the evaporator not having more surface area without fins. This is a big reason why a lot of modern dehumidifiers don't last as long. Also, many refrigerators both new and old have an all aluminum evaporator to better cope with some of the gasses that condense on the evaorator that turn into a mild acidic condensate.
I agree that if things were made the way they used to be, we would not have this problem. But for now, all aluminum evaps are the best solutuion. GE central units, like Gusherb94 said, became Trane's residential division around 1982. Ge had been using all aluminum spine fin since the 1960s. They also started making all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils in the 1970s, Carrier and Bryant used all aluminum coils in some of their outdoor equipment in the 70s if not before then. Carrier had their E-coil and Bryant had the green painted aluminum tube and fin coils. Both Carrier and BDP had all aluminum evaporators like Trane did too in the 1980s. Both Trane and Carrier BDP switched to copper tube evaps in the early 90s as making the aluminum ones was actually more expensive than copper ones. But, by the early to mostly mid 2000s, United Technologies, Trane, and Goodman were starting to experience higher failure rates on evap coils. Trane was the first to come back with all aluminum coils in about 2007-2008. Goodman (now owned by Daikin) made their first all aluminum shortly after. Now, the only manufacturers not using all aluminum evaporator coils is Lennox and I believe JCI for the most part does not either.
Sorry for the very long post. I do not mean to flame you Washman as I have a lot of respect for you and Combo52. Shucks, I own two AWN542, one still new in box, and an AFN51F because both you and John.
Thanks and take care. BTW, congrats on your nice new home. Looks great!
Now, as far as all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils go, this change is long overdue. Like you said Washman, copper is great to braze leaks on. Only thing is, nowadays due to the DOE and ever increasing efficiencies, manufacturers are internally rifling the tubing and making the copper tubing paper thin. Combine this with the fact that a lot of the copper is recycled and processed in China, and houses are being built ever tighter with fewer natural fresh air exchanges, also when dealers oversize cooling equipment to the load and have short runtimes and very little condensate "rinsing" the evap coil off, you have a recipe for formicary corrosion.
Many older dehumidifiers used to have a coil of aluminum tubing for the evaporator with no fins, and then a standard copper tube aluminum fin, or painted steel wire fin condensor. These units generally were a lot less prone to refrigerant leakage but less efficient due to the evaporator not having more surface area without fins. This is a big reason why a lot of modern dehumidifiers don't last as long. Also, many refrigerators both new and old have an all aluminum evaporator to better cope with some of the gasses that condense on the evaorator that turn into a mild acidic condensate.
I agree that if things were made the way they used to be, we would not have this problem. But for now, all aluminum evaps are the best solutuion. GE central units, like Gusherb94 said, became Trane's residential division around 1982. Ge had been using all aluminum spine fin since the 1960s. They also started making all aluminum tube and fin evaporator coils in the 1970s, Carrier and Bryant used all aluminum coils in some of their outdoor equipment in the 70s if not before then. Carrier had their E-coil and Bryant had the green painted aluminum tube and fin coils. Both Carrier and BDP had all aluminum evaporators like Trane did too in the 1980s. Both Trane and Carrier BDP switched to copper tube evaps in the early 90s as making the aluminum ones was actually more expensive than copper ones. But, by the early to mostly mid 2000s, United Technologies, Trane, and Goodman were starting to experience higher failure rates on evap coils. Trane was the first to come back with all aluminum coils in about 2007-2008. Goodman (now owned by Daikin) made their first all aluminum shortly after. Now, the only manufacturers not using all aluminum evaporator coils is Lennox and I believe JCI for the most part does not either.
Sorry for the very long post. I do not mean to flame you Washman as I have a lot of respect for you and Combo52. Shucks, I own two AWN542, one still new in box, and an AFN51F because both you and John.
Thanks and take care. BTW, congrats on your nice new home. Looks great!
Nor worries I like to learn new HVAC ideas anyway
What you outlined goes hand in hand with an oft discussed topic here, which is the overall cheapness and complexity that makes repair very unattractive vis a vis a complete replacement of said unit.
I am not surprised at this in the HVAC industry. Having to comply with EPA regs does put a strain on things and the quest to deliver that last bit of shareholder value puts a dent in design quality.
That being said my dad's 3.5 ton RUUD is circa 2002, all copper inside and out, running full chat in the hot Florida sun. The Copeland scroll (r22) runs very well, no issues, he has a TXV on both outdoor and indoor coils(heat pump). The only weakness is the condenser fan motor. He's on 4 I think since it was installed. He's pretty upset but I told him show me a fractional HP 220V electric motor with ball bearings and I'll buy it and have it installed! My money is safe because no such animal exists. All sleeve bearing. Now this is ok for midwest, northeast perhaps but not down south where these units run a lot. Coupled with the fact his house is circa 1960 with a 3/12 roof pitch and no more space to blow in more insulation, you will have a unit running a LOT unless you keep the tstat at 79 or so.
Ideal? No. Reality? Yes indeed.
My concern is unless technology comes around is it will be far less expensive to replace an entire evap coil or condenser coil than it is to simply solder/braze it and be done. So it goes right back to my first paragraph......landfills pilling up with too costly to repair HVAC units; joining their washing machine brethren.
What you outlined goes hand in hand with an oft discussed topic here, which is the overall cheapness and complexity that makes repair very unattractive vis a vis a complete replacement of said unit.
I am not surprised at this in the HVAC industry. Having to comply with EPA regs does put a strain on things and the quest to deliver that last bit of shareholder value puts a dent in design quality.
That being said my dad's 3.5 ton RUUD is circa 2002, all copper inside and out, running full chat in the hot Florida sun. The Copeland scroll (r22) runs very well, no issues, he has a TXV on both outdoor and indoor coils(heat pump). The only weakness is the condenser fan motor. He's on 4 I think since it was installed. He's pretty upset but I told him show me a fractional HP 220V electric motor with ball bearings and I'll buy it and have it installed! My money is safe because no such animal exists. All sleeve bearing. Now this is ok for midwest, northeast perhaps but not down south where these units run a lot. Coupled with the fact his house is circa 1960 with a 3/12 roof pitch and no more space to blow in more insulation, you will have a unit running a LOT unless you keep the tstat at 79 or so.
Ideal? No. Reality? Yes indeed.
My concern is unless technology comes around is it will be far less expensive to replace an entire evap coil or condenser coil than it is to simply solder/braze it and be done. So it goes right back to my first paragraph......landfills pilling up with too costly to repair HVAC units; joining their washing machine brethren.
mieletag
Well-known member
So glad you brought that up. I am actually work in the hvac industry. Deal with that very brand. Great equipment. But, copper tube coils of a somewhat recent vintage are known to leak. Makes me sick to see the warranty piles of those coils. Some were even replacements for replacements. The new all aluminum coils are much more robust and built better than recent copper coils. Aluminum end plates are nice that they don't rust out like the galvanized ones.
Around here Carrier, Bryant, and all of ICP had some of the worst leak rates, until they started using the new all aluminum coils.
As to the Ruud coils, back then, they made some good evaporator coils. In fact, the one at work is from 2002, a 4 ton RCBA coil matched to a Ruud 12 SEER unit from the same year with a Ruud modulating furnace from 02 also. Not a single leak on it.
Around here Carrier, Bryant, and all of ICP had some of the worst leak rates, until they started using the new all aluminum coils.
As to the Ruud coils, back then, they made some good evaporator coils. In fact, the one at work is from 2002, a 4 ton RCBA coil matched to a Ruud 12 SEER unit from the same year with a Ruud modulating furnace from 02 also. Not a single leak on it.
mieletag
Well-known member
Also, if you have your dad's model # of his outside unit, along with the 4 numbers after the F in the serial, I might have a source for a ball bearing 70 degree C condensor fan motor.
Hmmm. My Carrier heat pump circa 2004 has as yet the original condensor fan motor. The evaporator blower motor was replaced a couple years ago but vague indications are there was some incompetence and/or nefariousness on part of the servicer related to that situation.
mieletag
Well-known member
Just happened to think, the four numbers may be after a W or M in the serial.
Seems to run fine
I changed out the Aprilaire filter again, it was pretty dank looking so I found a place called discountfurnacefilter.com that offers said filter for 30.71 and 7.75 Fed Ex ground. They ship from Dayton OH and I get it in about 2 days.
Now that we've had some warm days, not hot by any stretch, I can keep the tstat @ 76 during the day and unless I'm coming in from raking out straw in the yard, I find that pretty comfortable. I go down to 75 at night. I have an Acurite weather station and the house will drop to 72 at night so the AC gets a break overnight and I am not waking up sweating.
I'm running overall 56% humidity, more on rainy days (which we have a lot here now).
The Aprilaire tstat is working well. I had to adjust the "swing" a bit as the factory settings left it not calling for cooling until I really noticed the heat buildup. Otherwise it does just fine. It is a manual unit but I don't find myself having to muck with the temp settings, just leave it at 76 during the day and off to work I go.
The Goodman outdoor run runs pretty quietly. I have to get around the back side of the house to actually hear it run.
Here's my unit installed. That yellowish goop is the effing expanding foam sealer I bought to fill in a rather large hole cut in the siding. I found out the hard way these are NOT reuseable. In other words, you better have lots of stuff to seal up lest you clog the thing from non use.
I changed out the Aprilaire filter again, it was pretty dank looking so I found a place called discountfurnacefilter.com that offers said filter for 30.71 and 7.75 Fed Ex ground. They ship from Dayton OH and I get it in about 2 days.
Now that we've had some warm days, not hot by any stretch, I can keep the tstat @ 76 during the day and unless I'm coming in from raking out straw in the yard, I find that pretty comfortable. I go down to 75 at night. I have an Acurite weather station and the house will drop to 72 at night so the AC gets a break overnight and I am not waking up sweating.
I'm running overall 56% humidity, more on rainy days (which we have a lot here now).
The Aprilaire tstat is working well. I had to adjust the "swing" a bit as the factory settings left it not calling for cooling until I really noticed the heat buildup. Otherwise it does just fine. It is a manual unit but I don't find myself having to muck with the temp settings, just leave it at 76 during the day and off to work I go.
The Goodman outdoor run runs pretty quietly. I have to get around the back side of the house to actually hear it run.
Here's my unit installed. That yellowish goop is the effing expanding foam sealer I bought to fill in a rather large hole cut in the siding. I found out the hard way these are NOT reuseable. In other words, you better have lots of stuff to seal up lest you clog the thing from non use.
That humidity seems a bit high, Ben.
Our ancient unit here at home, despite being about 1.5-2tons oversized for the space (House is about 1500sq. ft) manages to keep the humidity right on about 40%, at an 80ºF setpoint, when the outdoor temperature is around 80-85ºF and humidity somewhere around 70-80%. Not sure if thats because its R-22, and yours is something else, or maybe blower speeds... Still, it felt worthy of consideration.
Our ancient unit here at home, despite being about 1.5-2tons oversized for the space (House is about 1500sq. ft) manages to keep the humidity right on about 40%, at an 80ºF setpoint, when the outdoor temperature is around 80-85ºF and humidity somewhere around 70-80%. Not sure if thats because its R-22, and yours is something else, or maybe blower speeds... Still, it felt worthy of consideration.
I would agree washer111
But keep in mind, due to R38 insulation in attic along with modern energy star rated windows, the AC does not really run that much. For instance, the outdoor temp needs to be about 80 or above before the AC kicks in (I usually keep it at 76). It really has not been super hot here so having said that, it would explain to an extent the higher than typical indoor humidity.
But keep in mind, due to R38 insulation in attic along with modern energy star rated windows, the AC does not really run that much. For instance, the outdoor temp needs to be about 80 or above before the AC kicks in (I usually keep it at 76). It really has not been super hot here so having said that, it would explain to an extent the higher than typical indoor humidity.
The heat pump I had to get last October, has a humidity sensor in the t-stat. I'm keeping it at 45%. It's keeping the house about 2 degrees cooler than the set temp to attempt to keep the humidity at that level. It manages to keep it around 50 percent and lower at night.
