Todays Dishwashers
- Thread starter cleanteamofny
- Start date
Help Support :
I use the "Rinse only" cycle every night. And still, the results are scary bad in my KA TT, whcih was a new design at the time it was purchased.
Where's the water savings?
The water savings is in the dishwasher, silly! You don't think they have to count water for pre-rinsing, do you? That's the problem with regulation as we have it. Machines are regulated to the point where they do a lousy job, necessitating that we use more water, time, and effort dealing with the mess.
I believe appliance efficiency should not be measured in energy use, but energy use to accomplish satisfactory results for a given amount of dishes/clothes. That way, the energy and water consumption can be figured on a basis of "It requires X amount of energy and X amount of water to clean 1 item of standardized dirtiness" assuming that this one item is in a fully-loaded machine, running under optimal load and a normal cycle. This would allow for compensation for different capacity machines, and different levels of dirtiness.
Right now, any idiot can market a dishwasher and claim "Energy-Star" ratings and efficiency out the wazoo, and people will buy it. Unfortunately, there is no minimum standard for effectiveness, thus some of the most efficient appliances also do the worst job.
Just a little rant,
Dave
The water savings is in the dishwasher, silly! You don't think they have to count water for pre-rinsing, do you? That's the problem with regulation as we have it. Machines are regulated to the point where they do a lousy job, necessitating that we use more water, time, and effort dealing with the mess.
I believe appliance efficiency should not be measured in energy use, but energy use to accomplish satisfactory results for a given amount of dishes/clothes. That way, the energy and water consumption can be figured on a basis of "It requires X amount of energy and X amount of water to clean 1 item of standardized dirtiness" assuming that this one item is in a fully-loaded machine, running under optimal load and a normal cycle. This would allow for compensation for different capacity machines, and different levels of dirtiness.
Right now, any idiot can market a dishwasher and claim "Energy-Star" ratings and efficiency out the wazoo, and people will buy it. Unfortunately, there is no minimum standard for effectiveness, thus some of the most efficient appliances also do the worst job.
Just a little rant,
Dave
andrewinorlando
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2004
- Messages
- 1,392
Are dishwashers rated only on energy use (including energy needed to heat the water, for those machines that heat water) rather than total water use, as washing machines are? I don't recall reading regulations that require dishwashers to use specific amounts of water, as washers manufacturers have to do. Any manufacturer can dumb down a "normal" cycle to meet rigid requirements, then add shitloads of options (pre-wash, pre-heat, added heat, whatever) to give the consumer additional options that will actually get the dishes clean. Or use more water to do the job. Near as I can measure, the GE Profile 9800 uses about 1.8 - 2.0 gallons per fill, to power its 5 level wash system. If I open the door too quickly while it's running, the refrigerator next to it gets a bath. So there is some serious water circulation going on in there, enough so that on several occasions, things have loosened up inside...the collar that holds the wash arm down, and the screw that holds the center wash arm in place have both come apart, requiring re-assembly, and creating quite the racket.
That's probably build-quality Andrew.
We've had a GE Triton XL since 2003 and it's never underperformed.
I don't understand the issues with these machines.
They fill with exactly 1.2 gallons of water each fill, yet the pump is able to circulate water at full press.
If they're loaded properly, they'll work. The Triton XLs are quite powerful machines in this "ultra energy conservative" day and age.
I think the Maytag's TTs are OK too, but no direct experience from them.
Depending on your soap, if you fill the prewash cup, it will probably trip the turbidity sensor.
But our family always uses the Cascade tabs so no soap in the prewash. Many times the Normal wash will go directly to the main wash, no real issues with cleanability.
Pots & Pans I think sometimes uses too many water changes even if there's not alot of cookware soil.
So you yesteryear guys should like that. and Maybe use P&P more.
We've had a GE Triton XL since 2003 and it's never underperformed.
I don't understand the issues with these machines.
They fill with exactly 1.2 gallons of water each fill, yet the pump is able to circulate water at full press.
If they're loaded properly, they'll work. The Triton XLs are quite powerful machines in this "ultra energy conservative" day and age.
I think the Maytag's TTs are OK too, but no direct experience from them.
Depending on your soap, if you fill the prewash cup, it will probably trip the turbidity sensor.
But our family always uses the Cascade tabs so no soap in the prewash. Many times the Normal wash will go directly to the main wash, no real issues with cleanability.
Pots & Pans I think sometimes uses too many water changes even if there's not alot of cookware soil.
So you yesteryear guys should like that. and Maybe use P&P more.
In Europe, at least, dishwashers are rated for energy use but also cleaning and drying performance - in accordance to some complicated and detailed norm. A variety of food, such as spinach, egg yolk, tea, ground meat milk and so forth is applied to plates, bowls, cup and cutlery and then either dried for several hours at 176°F or put through a microwave.
Each manufacturer can then dictate how the dishes are loaded and which cycle is to be used for the Energy Label test. This high efficiency cycle may or may not include a cold pre-wash, an extended wash at 113° to 131°F, a cold rinse, a final rinse at 140° to 149°F and an extended drying phase. In order to receive an A for energy efficiency the dishwasher must not use more than 1.05 kWh. Water consumption is not rated as far as I know but obviously, the more water is consumed the more has to be heated. Cycle duration is not rated either, therefore the high efficiency cycle takes approx 2.5 hrs because it has to deliver perfectly clean dishes using very little resources. I don't mind the long duration as I only run the dishwasher three times a week and almost all machines are rated below 50 dB - some as low as 40 dB. And after all: there are always faster cycles for daily use. Bosch/Siemens, Miele and others have introduced options to cut cycle time by up to 50 % without compromising cleaning results.
Having said that, I just have to give it up to B/S/H. Some days ago, I washed a load of encrusted casserole dishes and a pot and some misc items in the upper rack. Used the ECO (-> high efficiency cycle) with the half load option. Granted, the cycle still took close to two hours but everything came clean with a 122° wash, a rinse, an extra hot 158° and a quick dry. Water consumption: a mere 3 gallons. Despite it taking a gallon to fill it won't skimp on pressure. I'm convinced, if loaded properly, the dishwasher could do without the middle spray arm. The lower arm is powerful enough to wash both baskets - I've seen (and video taped) it. Even the Miele, which I watched going through the pre-wash, can't compete with our Siemens as far as water pressure goes. And our DW is even quieter than the Miele.
I took a vid of the Miele but it's a 136 MB large... so I'll have to shrink it before posting.
Here's a video from Miele regarding the Energy Label test
Alex
Each manufacturer can then dictate how the dishes are loaded and which cycle is to be used for the Energy Label test. This high efficiency cycle may or may not include a cold pre-wash, an extended wash at 113° to 131°F, a cold rinse, a final rinse at 140° to 149°F and an extended drying phase. In order to receive an A for energy efficiency the dishwasher must not use more than 1.05 kWh. Water consumption is not rated as far as I know but obviously, the more water is consumed the more has to be heated. Cycle duration is not rated either, therefore the high efficiency cycle takes approx 2.5 hrs because it has to deliver perfectly clean dishes using very little resources. I don't mind the long duration as I only run the dishwasher three times a week and almost all machines are rated below 50 dB - some as low as 40 dB. And after all: there are always faster cycles for daily use. Bosch/Siemens, Miele and others have introduced options to cut cycle time by up to 50 % without compromising cleaning results.
Having said that, I just have to give it up to B/S/H. Some days ago, I washed a load of encrusted casserole dishes and a pot and some misc items in the upper rack. Used the ECO (-> high efficiency cycle) with the half load option. Granted, the cycle still took close to two hours but everything came clean with a 122° wash, a rinse, an extra hot 158° and a quick dry. Water consumption: a mere 3 gallons. Despite it taking a gallon to fill it won't skimp on pressure. I'm convinced, if loaded properly, the dishwasher could do without the middle spray arm. The lower arm is powerful enough to wash both baskets - I've seen (and video taped) it. Even the Miele, which I watched going through the pre-wash, can't compete with our Siemens as far as water pressure goes. And our DW is even quieter than the Miele.
I took a vid of the Miele but it's a 136 MB large... so I'll have to shrink it before posting.
Here's a video from Miele regarding the Energy Label test
Alex
Similar threads
