Under counter outlets for island

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I have been trying to come up with some ideas to install outlets on my kitchen island. The old island cabinet had two duplex outlets on the side. When the new cabinets were put in, no outlets were installed, as we didn't want to cut into the side panels of the new cabinets. They just ran the wires up from the floor and capped them off inside the cabinets.

I considered installing outlets inside the cabinets, and running cords through the door. This would solve the appearance issue, but it wouldn't meet code. The other idea I considered is Plugmold installed under the edge of the countertop, which is about 10" wide on each side. This would make the outlets invisible, but would meet code and I wouldn't have to cut into anything. But the price of Plugmold was a bit of a shock.

The final idea I had is to install some angled boxes from Home Depot which are about $20 each (I would install two). This would be cheaper and almost as invisible as Plugmold.

The other issue is GFCI protection. Currently the kitchen has none. I believe that all of the countertop and island outlets are on a single 20 amp breaker. The most straightforward solution is to install a GFCI breaker, but the panel box is from 1976 so it may be impossible to get new breakers. The second solution of course is to install a GFCI outlet at the start of the circuit, but who knows which is the first or where the island wiring falls into it. If the island outlets are first on the circuit, the angled boxes might be the route to go, as they accommodate GFCI sized devices.

Honestly, the island outlets were rarely used but were nice at Thanksgiving to plug in the electric knife for turkey or ham cutting. Been using an extension cord to do that. Also useful for the vacuum cleaner as didn't have to use outlets above counters.
 
I guess it varies from state to state for code....

but I have outlets built in under the bathroom sink, of course their GFCI, that's just common sense....but this way the electric toothbrush, razor, etc are plugged in underneath, out of site.....

same for the blow dryers, the cord is routed up into the drawer, open drawer, use appliance, place back, and close the drawer....out of sight, out of mind...

even in the kitchen, under the sink are two outlets....one powers the disposal, the other for the dishwasher....and oddly enough, they are not GFCI...

if you installed them inside the cabinet, as long as the wire is metal covered conduit, and they are GFCI surface mounts.....I don't see the issue....

but yeah, for things like electric knife or hand mixer, I wish I had outlets on the front of my base cabinets...the kick plate would be a good location, as you mentioned for the vacuum as well....but not all cords are long enough....
 
I guess it varies from state to state for code....

but I have outlets built in under the bathroom sink, of course their GFCI, that's just common sense....but this way the electric toothbrush, razor, etc are plugged in underneath, out of site.....

same for the blow dryers, the cord is routed up into the drawer, open drawer, use appliance, place back, and close the drawer....out of sight, out of mind...

even in the kitchen, under the sink are two outlets....one powers the disposal, the other for the dishwasher....and oddly enough, they are not GFCI...

if you installed them inside the cabinet, as long as the wire is metal covered conduit, and they are GFCI surface mounts.....I don't see the issue....

but yeah, for things like electric knife or hand mixer, I wish I had outlets on the front of my base cabinets...the kick plate would be a good location, as you mentioned for the vacuum as well....but not all cords are long enough....
 
The reason that outlets are required in kitchen islands is to discourage the use of extension cords, which can lead to a variety of tripping and scalding accidents.  Coincidentally, you mentioned that you yourself have used an extension cord due to the lack of outlets in the island. 

 

As for the GFCI protection, if you don't install a GFI breaker at the service panel, then it shouldn't be too difficult to determine the route of the circuit to install a GFI on the first outlet in the kitchen, connecting all other outlets downstream.  If you did need to install a GFCI outlet in the island itself, then how about installing the "ugly" white GFCI inside the cabinets and then connecting the exposed island outlets downstream of that.

 

As for the island outlets themselves, if you didn't like the standard exposed outlets, there are a variety of pop-up and pop-out outlets available.  I have also seen them located behind a small hinged "drawer" to disguise them.  I also saw something on This Old House where a designer didn't want to install outlets in the island due to aesthetics, but was required to do so in order that the island meet code.  So she found this neat little magnetic flap that installs flush on the side of the island, completely concealing the outlets installed behind it. 

 
 
Square D panel. I just kind of assumed that new breakers wouldn't fit, as I heard someone talking about how they had a power surge that messed up their breakers and had to get a whole new panel because new ones didn't fit. But maybe they had some panel whose manufacturer was no longer in business.

Good ideas in this thread, thanks. I will check again to see if outlets in cabinets are allowed. If not may go the angled box route. The exposed outlets don't bother me as much as cutting holes in those solid wood panels.
 
Square D shouldn't be a problem.

This house here has a Federal Pacific breaker panel and breakers. They went out of business years ago because of a spate of faulty breakers that could arc and start fires. I had an inspector check out this panel and he said it looked like it had "good" breakers. No signs of arcing. But if I ever need to run new circuits, I'll have to replace the panel, probably with a Square D.

It's not too hard to tell which outlets are mother and daughter. The first outlet in the circuit will have an extra lead going to the next outlet. The last outlet won't have one. This does require shutting off the breaker and pulling the outlets out of their boxes, but once done it's easy enough to replace the first outlet with a GFCI one. I did this in my kitchen and master bed/bath, as well as the guest bath, and a few outlets in exposed places outside.
 
Can you go wirh pop up outlets? Or a marble top section that lifts ?

My major concern about side outlets or anything that brings cables down beyond the edge of a counter top is toddlers and kids pulling them.

All it takes is an appliance with hot liquid - a kettle, a coffee pot or any kind of hot device and you have a serious scalding accident.

I know the wiring regulations here and fittings are different but I just went with socket outlets like this:



Since 1980, wiring regs here require RCD / GFCI protection on every outlet circuit anyway so that is a non issue. We just do it with either a combined RCBO (circuit breaker and gfci in a single module) or one RCD (GFCI) covers a whole row of breakers. (The older way).

The hob (cook top), oven and extractor hood also get GFCI protection here these days too. I’ve never found it any issue and it’s a bit reassuring to know it’s that bit safer, even if it might seem overkill.
 
John (Combo52) did something brilliant with his Corian counter on a very long peninsula that doubles as prep area and buffet. He installed a strip of outlets UNDER the front edge on the working side so outlets are facing down (good in case of spills), but are easily seen for lining up prongs and outlets by bending slightly and plugs are not sticking out (in the case of older plugs where the cord is in line with the prongs instead of perpendicular to them like in newer plugs) to catch on clothing. The cords do not snake across the counter to outlets anywhere and having them almost invisible from the guests makes for a nice presentation at serving time.

You could run the lines up the ends of the inland to feed two circuits and connect them into the strips.
 
Panels

Unless that Square D panel is really old, there are basically two model series, Q0 and Homeline. Both are still made and your favorite big-box hardware store carries breakers for them. Replacing them is not that hard (but SHUT OFF THE MAIN first!) I have a Q0 and I put in a 20A GFCI breaker for a whirlpool tub circuit. Piece of cake.

Federal Pacific: If that's a Stab-Lok panel, you need to get rid of it pronto. These are known fire hazards. The double pole breakers, including the main breakers, have a known design problem that can cause them to jam if a short circuit occurs; not only will the breaker not trip, but you won't be able to shut it off manually either. You could have a jammed one and not know it until you need to shut it off. Some fire insurance policies will not pay if they find out that the house had a Stab-Lok panel. Underwriters' Labs revoked their listing on these panels after they found out that Federal Pacific had rigged their tests to make it look like the breakers worked when they actually didn't.
 
My grandmas house had a Square D panel from the early 70s if not the late 60s. They were the QO breakers still made today. You should have zero issue getting breakers for your panel from 1976.
 
Square D introduced QO breakers in 1955

Wow, that's a bit older than I was expecting. Their design has really withstood the test of time if they've been around that long. They've been redesigned some over the years though, how much, I cant say for sure. My grandma's QO breakers from the late 60s early 70s didn't have the little red trip indicator that ones I've seen from at least as far back as 1980 did, though.

 

Reading around on electrical forums in the past, several have complained about QO breakers having issues with burned up busbars due to a loose connection with the breaker. I've never experienced that. 
 
Mine I believe is QO Series. The breakers on mine do have the little window that shows red when they're tripped. I didn't realize the QO line was that old although I knew breakers dated back awhile. Most homes here in the 1950s still had fuses though.

Good to know I can get new breakers, and even GFCI breakers for it.
 
I've done my homework on Federal Pacific and what I learned it that they had a production problem along the way, and that products produced before a certain date were OK. Apparently the later stuff was crap. The stuff here is early FP, and they do trip as they should in the event of an overload (I do that occasionally in the kitchen with too may heat producing gadgets at once, like microwave + coffee maker + toaster oven all on one circuit.

When I replaced the electric smooth top on the kitchen counter, I tapped off one of the 220 volt legs, and ran it to a Square D breaker box under the counter. That way I could install a 15 amp breaker and run that to an outlet under there for the electric ignition for the gas cook top. It's a two breaker box; I may run another leg to an outlet outside the counter to power things like ... coffee makers and stand mixers. Probably using hard conduit or armored cable.
 
Hmm, I don't recall seeing Federal Pacific panels here. Most I've seen were Square D or GE though I haven't paid much attention. I know the old house that was next door had a Crouse Hinds breaker panel that I doubt was original (it was demolished last year). Another neighbor's house built in 1997 has a Challenger panel. I thought both were rather unusual brands to see.

As far as too many appliances on 1 circuit I know I've used at least the waffle iron, a warmer, coffee maker and had the hood lights on at the same time and didn't trip the 20A breaker and supposedly they are all on the same one, the ceiling lights are separate and the outlet behind the fridge as well as the freezer outlet in the pantry are on another 20A circuit.
 
Waffle iron, a warmer, coffee maker, and hood lights

I think a 15 amp circuit could handle that load with little to nothing to spare. Coffee makers typically draw 7 amps, I'd be surprised if the waffle iron drew more than 5, the warmer is probably a couple hundred watts if that, and hood lights are maybe another 100 watts give or take.

Our kitchen is only wired with 3, 20 amp circuits plus a later added 50 amp 240v circuit for an electric range. One circuit has all the can lights plus a microwave that draws 15 amps (as confirmed by the Kill-A-Watt meter). Nothing else load intensive can ever be used on that circuit because of that (it used to trip regularly before appliances got moved around). Another circuit has the pendants and chandelier over the table on it, as well as dishwasher, and garbage disposal. Typically just a toaster is plugged in on that circuit, the coffee maker used to be plugged in there as well. The third circuit serves one counter outlet and the fridge, the fridge draws a few amps at best, which leaves plenty in reserve for the commercial Bunn that draws 11 amps and a hot water machine.
There is an outlet in the island and it's tied in with a circuit that serves half the dining room, an outlet in the living room, and one outlet above in the master bedroom. It's a very hodgepodge circuit but almost never gets overloaded due to what it serves.
 
Unfortunately the side of the counter that I easily can put & use my small appliances for has NO Electricity! So that forced me to use a power bar stretched across the counter to that portion of it, via cord plugged into a distant outlet (w/ a ground-fault eliminator, no less) to utilize my stuff...

Tables at libraries that I have seen have outlets in the middle of them, hence the wiring is enclosed in a center support leg below it, and maybe a need to actually move these tables has also accordingly gotten eliminated from what I've seen... (Not that I need to w/ my dining room table, but my wife & sometimes daughter want to watch TV in the kitchen, and the only appropriate place was an INAPPROPRIATE place, which is in the corner by the stove (plugged into that only existing stationary outlet, so we'd never replaced that TV, there, after it had plummeted off that counter that fatal one last time... And it was a small flat-screen that simply came loose from its mountings after its constant falls!...)

-- Dave
 
Like I said, I need outlets on THIS portion of the kitchen counter, hence supplied by power-bar via cord plugged a distant away, in the corner near where my stove & cooking are done--and convincing a TV be put there as opposed to that other area where it would be in the way of something important like cooking was only (despite the safety issue, as well) met by opposition, so there is none added to that area, besides, you can carry your food out to the living room & eat there... Where also we have a big screen and a couch!

-- Dave

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@sudsmaster,

As an FYI, NO FPE breakers/panels are safe. New production still carries the same basic faults as the older ones.

Listen to what we are saying. GET RID OF THAT BOX, especially if you have a family/kids. It's not worth risking a house fire and their lives.

After the second near miss with my 1950's parent's house, we replaced the box. During the summer with the a/cs running, you could hear the box buzzing, and the dead panel was almost too hot to touch. When the box was pulled, we found the buss bar almost melted.
 
I disagree, but I'll look into it (again).

In any case, most of the small appliances in this place are on power strips with built-in circuit breakers. Occasionally I'll trip one of those (usually where a microwave and a toaster oven on on same strip).

And, as I recall from my previous research, it's not the older ones that are the problem. It's the newer ones. Not that any of them are that new.
 
Looked at another house with my aunt today, built in 1961 and to my surprise had a QO breaker panel that looks to be original from 1961! That's now the oldest one I've seen, though looking at that, my grandmas could've been from 1960 when the room addition was put on, given it looked just like this one but was a little smaller and had a 60 amp service instead of 100.

Looking closer at the panel you can see three different variations of the QO breaker, the oldest ones having no trip window, then some newer ones probably from the 70s or 80s with the trip window, and the newest ones probably 20 years old or less with the Square D logo on them.

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Gus,

My insurance company never asked so it's never been an issue. When I bought this house 20 years ago, the inspector mentioned the history of FP failures but he was clear that there would be signs of problems - that is arcing inside the panel, presumably on the "Stab-Loc" blades that I gather are what make contact with the wiring. He said he took apart the panel and saw no such signs, so it was good to go.

The previous owner was a very conscientious if not obsessive compulsive craftsman and I doubt he would have put up with a faulty panel, especially since he did a lot of welding around the property and in the workshop, which also has an FP panel. With the loads he was probably drawing I figure the stuff would have melted down long ago if it was going to.

There is however no central A/C here (doesn't need it) and I'm careful to keep loads under what the wiring/breakers can handle.

And like I say, on occasion I have tripped various breakers, sometimes on purpose, and not seen ANY problems.

If there is a fire here and it can be traced to the FP panels I suppose the insurance company might try to refuse payment, in which case they'd have a lawsuit on their hands because they never even brought it up and accepted the premiums for two decades.

Oh the the main breaker for the home (service entry) is FP as well. When I bought the house I'd only seen it briefly and mistakenly thought the main breaker was really fuses, and the insurance company flatly told me they would not insure a home with fuses on the main panel (probably on the sub panels as well, although we didn't discuss that). Once I had a chance to visit again, I confirmed the main service was through breakers, and the insurance company agreed to insure it. They never brought up whether it was FP or anyone elses. I figure the main breakers are not "Sta-Bloc", but rather some sort of screw/compression connection and so don't suffer the issues that the subpanels with Sta-Bloc connections MIGHT have.

Yes, when I go solar or need to upgrade the electrical here I'll replace the FP panels and breakers. Until then it's not gonna keep me up at night.

And as for other panels be so superior to FP... at work we have a big panel with mostly Square D or compatible breakers. Well, we were having equipment failures, and finally someone noticed that panel wasn't only warm, it was HOT to the touch. Turned out to be a faulty breaker, and once replaced the problems went away. Again, not an FP panel or breaker. So it's probably not a bad idea to monitor the temp of any breaker panel, especially if you're drawing a lot of amps.
 
In August of '73 we had a new electrical service installed.

The old service had a Wadsworth fuse box (100 amp) containing main for lights, range, and six plug fuses. There were also three "safety switches", two Square D (dryer, dishwasher & disposer), and an American Switch for the water heater. The triplex cable going from the house to the pole was undersized, and one day the range, dryer, dishwasher, a couple room ACs, and probably the water heater were all on. This heavy load caused the cable to overheat, which then shorted out, melted in two, and then fell into the yard. The transformer then blew, which caused the substation circuit breaker to cut out, causing a power outage for several blocks around.

The electrician installed a new service which included a new cable, meter socket, and an FPE breaker panel (200 amp). I noticed that the breakers seemed to be loose on the busbar, moving up and down. A couple of the breakers got weak after a few years, and would trip at less than their rating. I also noticed the breakers for the air conditioning would get hotter than they should. Later in the 70's I installed a sub-panel which was a Cutler-Hammer brand. The difference in quality was easily apparent, the CH being much more solid. The FPE was in place until about five or six years ago when I had new Eaton CH equipment installed. When I tore out the FPE panel there was some heat discoloration on the busbar, but nothing charred or melted.

The sturdiest circuit breakers are the bolt-on, rather than the plug-on type. These are ususlly only found on the industrial grade panels, which are somewhat more expensive, so rarely used in a residence.
 
After posting I did some more research on the FPE issue. I found a lot of dramatic stuff, as well as a very well organized treatise. I link to that below.

If I could sum up the issues, here's a "Stab" at it "LOL"

1) Panel design: FPE panels have some design issues that can lead to later problems. Aluminum instead of copper bus bars stood out. Copper is a better conductor, and probably stronger as well. Also the "Stab-Loc" attachment design, which is how the breakers connect with the buses, doesn't provide maximum material contact, just on the edges. Some panels have spring mounted bus bars, which don't provide a stable enough installation.

2) Breakers: FPE breakers appear to have some things backward. Whereas with other breakers is is sometimes advised to toggle the breakers periodically to keep them "limber" and better prepared to trip under overload or short conditions, FPE breakers react negatively to this exercising and it can increase their tendency to fail under overload or voltage surges.

3) Panel size. As with many older panels, FPE panels were designed to an earlier code. Later codes require more space inside the panels for wiring etc. This problem is with many older panels, but might be an additional reason to replace and FPE panel.

FPE itself was found to have falsified product testing for certification by a variety of underhanded methods. Why this did not result in a nationwide product recall is a subject for debate. Apparently budget constraints with the CPSC in the early 1980's as a given as a reason for not launching a recall research effort and ultimate recall requirement. And by that time FPE was out of business.

Now, as far as my house goes.... I don't make a habit of playing with the breakers, so they have limited mechanical insult, at least for the last 20 years. Also, like I said, I have observed various FPE breakers tripping under overload, including a 30 amp circuit that goes to the patio kitchen and adjacent fish pond area. In fact there's a vintage GE window/wall AC unit in there that will reliably trip the 30 amp FPE breaker inside the main house. So I don't use that AC unit. I have never detected a heat problem in either of the FPE panels (there's another one in the workshop). And as I said, when I bought the place, the inspector said he'd checked out the panel in the house, pulled some breakers, and didn't see any sign of heat/arcing/distortion damage. He was a pretty thorough guy, leaning towards giving the negative side on most things, so it did give me some piece of mind. If I had to do it again, I would have opted to dump some more cash into the house to replace the panels and the knob and tube in the month before I moved in. Woulda coulda shoulda.

All that said, I've decided that the FPE panels are on their way out. The question is when. When I moved in I noticed there are other issues, such as knob and tube wiring to half of the older parts of the house - the rest of the house and the addition are more modern - including rigid conduit, armored conduit, and NM cable. There are some things that were done very well, such as the large diameter rigid conduit running from the main service breakers to the house panel in the entry, and then more rigid conduit to the newer wiring and then on out to the workshop (underground, it's a separate building). So there is some good stuff here. The FPE panels, not so good.

So I have to decide how much work is necessary at this point. Minimally, the house panel has to be upgraded (I want more breakers in it anyway). It currently has a 2 pole 40 amp breaker running to the workshop. So even if I keep the FP panels (there are two, one for lighting, the other for outlets) in the workshop a while longer, upgrading the house panel will provide a new 40 amp dual pole breaker for that which while it might not address minor overloading that gets by the workshop panel, at least will trip in the face of massive electrical surges, which are the really scary ones.

After that, upgrade the service to the home from 100 amp 2 pole to 200 amp 2 pole.

Then, replace what remains of the knob and tube in half of the older part of the house with 3 wire grounded.

Finally, replace the FPE breaker panels in the workshop.

Along with all this I have an eye to putting in solar power on either the house roof or the workshop/garage roof. I don't want to do that, however, until the panel/wiring issues are addressed. However it might make sense to involve a solar contractor for advice as to the best combinations to accept later solar power infrastructure. Better than redoing everything and then finding it needs to be redone again to accommodate solar power generation.

When? Probably not until I retire which could be as early as next year. Might take a couple of years, though.

One though I had along the way here... on this issue... over the past decade or two I've been conserving electricity, with more efficient appliances (two fridges), as well as replacing incandescent lighting, first with CFL's and then to LED's. This means less load on the breaker panels and probably reduces a little the chances of a failure.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this up. I still think the current (no pun intended) situation is safe, but it could be safer and it will need to be addressed.
 
Suds,

If you don't believe us, do this.

Kill the power to the house and take the dead front off the box. Take each circuit breaker out one at a time and inspect the buss. There's a better than 60% chance that your'e going to find scorch marks and evidence of overheating.
 
I believe that was already done 20 years ago.

But let's just assume there are scorch marks and the panel needs to be replaced. I'm still going to wait about 2 yrs before that happens.
 
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