Under counter outlets for island

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Unfortunately the side of the counter that I easily can put & use my small appliances for has NO Electricity! So that forced me to use a power bar stretched across the counter to that portion of it, via cord plugged into a distant outlet (w/ a ground-fault eliminator, no less) to utilize my stuff...

Tables at libraries that I have seen have outlets in the middle of them, hence the wiring is enclosed in a center support leg below it, and maybe a need to actually move these tables has also accordingly gotten eliminated from what I've seen... (Not that I need to w/ my dining room table, but my wife & sometimes daughter want to watch TV in the kitchen, and the only appropriate place was an INAPPROPRIATE place, which is in the corner by the stove (plugged into that only existing stationary outlet, so we'd never replaced that TV, there, after it had plummeted off that counter that fatal one last time... And it was a small flat-screen that simply came loose from its mountings after its constant falls!...)

-- Dave
 
Like I said, I need outlets on THIS portion of the kitchen counter, hence supplied by power-bar via cord plugged a distant away, in the corner near where my stove & cooking are done--and convincing a TV be put there as opposed to that other area where it would be in the way of something important like cooking was only (despite the safety issue, as well) met by opposition, so there is none added to that area, besides, you can carry your food out to the living room & eat there... Where also we have a big screen and a couch!

-- Dave

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@sudsmaster,

As an FYI, NO FPE breakers/panels are safe. New production still carries the same basic faults as the older ones.

Listen to what we are saying. GET RID OF THAT BOX, especially if you have a family/kids. It's not worth risking a house fire and their lives.

After the second near miss with my 1950's parent's house, we replaced the box. During the summer with the a/cs running, you could hear the box buzzing, and the dead panel was almost too hot to touch. When the box was pulled, we found the buss bar almost melted.
 
I disagree, but I'll look into it (again).

In any case, most of the small appliances in this place are on power strips with built-in circuit breakers. Occasionally I'll trip one of those (usually where a microwave and a toaster oven on on same strip).

And, as I recall from my previous research, it's not the older ones that are the problem. It's the newer ones. Not that any of them are that new.
 
Looked at another house with my aunt today, built in 1961 and to my surprise had a QO breaker panel that looks to be original from 1961! That's now the oldest one I've seen, though looking at that, my grandmas could've been from 1960 when the room addition was put on, given it looked just like this one but was a little smaller and had a 60 amp service instead of 100.

Looking closer at the panel you can see three different variations of the QO breaker, the oldest ones having no trip window, then some newer ones probably from the 70s or 80s with the trip window, and the newest ones probably 20 years old or less with the Square D logo on them.

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Gus,

My insurance company never asked so it's never been an issue. When I bought this house 20 years ago, the inspector mentioned the history of FP failures but he was clear that there would be signs of problems - that is arcing inside the panel, presumably on the "Stab-Loc" blades that I gather are what make contact with the wiring. He said he took apart the panel and saw no such signs, so it was good to go.

The previous owner was a very conscientious if not obsessive compulsive craftsman and I doubt he would have put up with a faulty panel, especially since he did a lot of welding around the property and in the workshop, which also has an FP panel. With the loads he was probably drawing I figure the stuff would have melted down long ago if it was going to.

There is however no central A/C here (doesn't need it) and I'm careful to keep loads under what the wiring/breakers can handle.

And like I say, on occasion I have tripped various breakers, sometimes on purpose, and not seen ANY problems.

If there is a fire here and it can be traced to the FP panels I suppose the insurance company might try to refuse payment, in which case they'd have a lawsuit on their hands because they never even brought it up and accepted the premiums for two decades.

Oh the the main breaker for the home (service entry) is FP as well. When I bought the house I'd only seen it briefly and mistakenly thought the main breaker was really fuses, and the insurance company flatly told me they would not insure a home with fuses on the main panel (probably on the sub panels as well, although we didn't discuss that). Once I had a chance to visit again, I confirmed the main service was through breakers, and the insurance company agreed to insure it. They never brought up whether it was FP or anyone elses. I figure the main breakers are not "Sta-Bloc", but rather some sort of screw/compression connection and so don't suffer the issues that the subpanels with Sta-Bloc connections MIGHT have.

Yes, when I go solar or need to upgrade the electrical here I'll replace the FP panels and breakers. Until then it's not gonna keep me up at night.

And as for other panels be so superior to FP... at work we have a big panel with mostly Square D or compatible breakers. Well, we were having equipment failures, and finally someone noticed that panel wasn't only warm, it was HOT to the touch. Turned out to be a faulty breaker, and once replaced the problems went away. Again, not an FP panel or breaker. So it's probably not a bad idea to monitor the temp of any breaker panel, especially if you're drawing a lot of amps.
 
In August of '73 we had a new electrical service installed.

The old service had a Wadsworth fuse box (100 amp) containing main for lights, range, and six plug fuses. There were also three "safety switches", two Square D (dryer, dishwasher & disposer), and an American Switch for the water heater. The triplex cable going from the house to the pole was undersized, and one day the range, dryer, dishwasher, a couple room ACs, and probably the water heater were all on. This heavy load caused the cable to overheat, which then shorted out, melted in two, and then fell into the yard. The transformer then blew, which caused the substation circuit breaker to cut out, causing a power outage for several blocks around.

The electrician installed a new service which included a new cable, meter socket, and an FPE breaker panel (200 amp). I noticed that the breakers seemed to be loose on the busbar, moving up and down. A couple of the breakers got weak after a few years, and would trip at less than their rating. I also noticed the breakers for the air conditioning would get hotter than they should. Later in the 70's I installed a sub-panel which was a Cutler-Hammer brand. The difference in quality was easily apparent, the CH being much more solid. The FPE was in place until about five or six years ago when I had new Eaton CH equipment installed. When I tore out the FPE panel there was some heat discoloration on the busbar, but nothing charred or melted.

The sturdiest circuit breakers are the bolt-on, rather than the plug-on type. These are ususlly only found on the industrial grade panels, which are somewhat more expensive, so rarely used in a residence.
 
After posting I did some more research on the FPE issue. I found a lot of dramatic stuff, as well as a very well organized treatise. I link to that below.

If I could sum up the issues, here's a "Stab" at it "LOL"

1) Panel design: FPE panels have some design issues that can lead to later problems. Aluminum instead of copper bus bars stood out. Copper is a better conductor, and probably stronger as well. Also the "Stab-Loc" attachment design, which is how the breakers connect with the buses, doesn't provide maximum material contact, just on the edges. Some panels have spring mounted bus bars, which don't provide a stable enough installation.

2) Breakers: FPE breakers appear to have some things backward. Whereas with other breakers is is sometimes advised to toggle the breakers periodically to keep them "limber" and better prepared to trip under overload or short conditions, FPE breakers react negatively to this exercising and it can increase their tendency to fail under overload or voltage surges.

3) Panel size. As with many older panels, FPE panels were designed to an earlier code. Later codes require more space inside the panels for wiring etc. This problem is with many older panels, but might be an additional reason to replace and FPE panel.

FPE itself was found to have falsified product testing for certification by a variety of underhanded methods. Why this did not result in a nationwide product recall is a subject for debate. Apparently budget constraints with the CPSC in the early 1980's as a given as a reason for not launching a recall research effort and ultimate recall requirement. And by that time FPE was out of business.

Now, as far as my house goes.... I don't make a habit of playing with the breakers, so they have limited mechanical insult, at least for the last 20 years. Also, like I said, I have observed various FPE breakers tripping under overload, including a 30 amp circuit that goes to the patio kitchen and adjacent fish pond area. In fact there's a vintage GE window/wall AC unit in there that will reliably trip the 30 amp FPE breaker inside the main house. So I don't use that AC unit. I have never detected a heat problem in either of the FPE panels (there's another one in the workshop). And as I said, when I bought the place, the inspector said he'd checked out the panel in the house, pulled some breakers, and didn't see any sign of heat/arcing/distortion damage. He was a pretty thorough guy, leaning towards giving the negative side on most things, so it did give me some piece of mind. If I had to do it again, I would have opted to dump some more cash into the house to replace the panels and the knob and tube in the month before I moved in. Woulda coulda shoulda.

All that said, I've decided that the FPE panels are on their way out. The question is when. When I moved in I noticed there are other issues, such as knob and tube wiring to half of the older parts of the house - the rest of the house and the addition are more modern - including rigid conduit, armored conduit, and NM cable. There are some things that were done very well, such as the large diameter rigid conduit running from the main service breakers to the house panel in the entry, and then more rigid conduit to the newer wiring and then on out to the workshop (underground, it's a separate building). So there is some good stuff here. The FPE panels, not so good.

So I have to decide how much work is necessary at this point. Minimally, the house panel has to be upgraded (I want more breakers in it anyway). It currently has a 2 pole 40 amp breaker running to the workshop. So even if I keep the FP panels (there are two, one for lighting, the other for outlets) in the workshop a while longer, upgrading the house panel will provide a new 40 amp dual pole breaker for that which while it might not address minor overloading that gets by the workshop panel, at least will trip in the face of massive electrical surges, which are the really scary ones.

After that, upgrade the service to the home from 100 amp 2 pole to 200 amp 2 pole.

Then, replace what remains of the knob and tube in half of the older part of the house with 3 wire grounded.

Finally, replace the FPE breaker panels in the workshop.

Along with all this I have an eye to putting in solar power on either the house roof or the workshop/garage roof. I don't want to do that, however, until the panel/wiring issues are addressed. However it might make sense to involve a solar contractor for advice as to the best combinations to accept later solar power infrastructure. Better than redoing everything and then finding it needs to be redone again to accommodate solar power generation.

When? Probably not until I retire which could be as early as next year. Might take a couple of years, though.

One though I had along the way here... on this issue... over the past decade or two I've been conserving electricity, with more efficient appliances (two fridges), as well as replacing incandescent lighting, first with CFL's and then to LED's. This means less load on the breaker panels and probably reduces a little the chances of a failure.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this up. I still think the current (no pun intended) situation is safe, but it could be safer and it will need to be addressed.
 
Suds,

If you don't believe us, do this.

Kill the power to the house and take the dead front off the box. Take each circuit breaker out one at a time and inspect the buss. There's a better than 60% chance that your'e going to find scorch marks and evidence of overheating.
 
I forgot to mention that one time I turned the 200 amp main on the FPE to off to add a breaker, and the power did NOT go off! I had to push it back up to on and back to off to disconnect it. Very disconcerting to say the least.
 
Pushmatic was another one...

Every house in our neighborhood built in the early 1970's had a Pushmatic breaker panel. The breakers were pushed in to reset rather than toggled. Eventually, you could not buy the breakers anymore so we had ours replaced a few years ago with a GE panel. Most people had to have their service replaced over this. I don't know if Pushmatic was made by Federal Pacific. I have also seen Westinghouse circuit breakers, but I think those are now Cutler-Hammer.
 
I have one panel that is pushmatic and the second one is an name I can't remember and to get a new breaker for it last year I was quoted $70, sorry no.

 

I plan on replacing both panels soon, found a reversible panel that will allow bottom feed which will work great in my application.
 
In a way, fuses were a safer solution than breakers, provided you ruled out the human factor... such as putting a penny in the socket in place of the blown fuse.

I remember decades ago an electrician opining that circuit breakers were not necessarily a good thing. Perhaps he was thinking of all the different failure modes they can experience. In one of the discussions I found, the description of how a circuit breaker trips under large voltage surges was that it was like it was designed by Rube Goldberg.
 
Pull the meter

Wise warning- if its a smart meter there is a chance the power company might show up- don't do it if the thought presents itself to those reading! Smart meters will alert for a loss of power, and some even have tilt sensors to deter tampering (jumping the jaws, oldest trick in the book).
 

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