Vinegar as a "softener"

[lordkenmore]

I've read any number of comments from people who use white vinegar as a softener replacement in laundry. I've been wondering some things about the practice. I tried Googling, and actually ended up with more questions than I started with... So here are the questions:

 

<ol>
<li>Does it work with liquid detergents? (One explanation I've heard is that vinegar acid cancels out alkaline powder detergent. But IIRC liquids aren't so alkaline, maybe even fairly close to neutral.)</li>
<li>Does it harm the inner parts of washing machines? This was the question that came up while Googling--someone being told by an appliance tech that vinegar harmed seals or some such thing.</li>
<li>Also it is true that vinegar can harm porcelain washer tubs?</li>
</ol>
 

 

[launderess]

Purpose of a laundry "sour" among several is to counteract the effects of alkaline substances used for washing, and remove their residue. Liquid laundry detergents for domestic use are already pretty much either neutral or only slightly alkaline. Furthermore since they do not contain salts, soda, and so forth there isn't any need to use any sort of laundry sour including vinegar.

Commercial laundries are or pretty much have moved over to liquid laundry products only using alkaline "breaks" or other substances as needed.

https://americanlaundrynews.com/articles/many-hotels-can-find-new-way-protect-linen-investment

http://www.coinwash.com/mb/showthread.php?t=5228

Vinegar and washing machines:

There has been some debate as to if even a mild acid like vinegar can harm domestic washing machines with long term use. No one seems to have a certain answer but best to speak with the manufacturer.

Commercial washing machines often do not have pumps and or are designed with parts (internal) that can withstand frequent contact with either strong base or acid substances. OTOH using too much vinegar even though it is already a fairly dilute acid *might* cause problems.

Maybe it's not such a miracle after all

Vinegar is miracle substance. In most instances, it will still do a fine job at cleaning. Sometimes it can do more harm than good, though.

www.sheknows.com

 

[michaelman2]

John/LordKenmore,

 

I have been doing this for several years and I really like the effect it has on the item.  I have never been a fan of fabric softener.   Especially with towels and other items where I feel the fabric softener affects the items absorbancy.   Cannot stand a towel to not be absorbant. 

 

I fill the fabric softener container in my machine (Duet circa 2004) to the level appropriate for the would have been softener and it has not affected the drum or any other part of my machine.   Drum is stainless ( I believe) and if it is erroding or damaging other parts of the machine, I may just be clueless.

 

 

 

[philcobendixduo]

I, Too, Use White Vinegar...

......in the rinse when washing towels. I've read that it helps to remove the soap residue making the towels softer when line drying (which is what I do whenever possible).

So far, no detrimental effects on my 30 year-old Kenmore DD machine.

 

[jerrod6]

Looking back at the first link Laundress included about hotels washing sheets with neutral detergent, the article aso states that the optimum temperature to wash linen sheets is 140F. It recommends loading the machine to 80-90% of capacity so if you observe your machine through the glass the tumbles of laundry should occur at the 10 and 2 positions of the clock.

 

I guess this would apply to consumer washers too, or is just for large commercial machines?   How many of us wash a load of sheets and fill the drum so that the tumbles are at the 10 and 2 o'clock positions?  How many wash sheets at 140F?  Something I will have to think about. 

 

So if we are using a liquid laundry detergent, Fabric softener or vinegar is no longer needed?

 

[launderess]

Don't know about anyone else

But one has been saying and following the "10 to 2" O'clock advice for some time. There are other parameters used in commercial laundries such as "2 to 8" O'clock, but the main thing is you need a certain amount of lifting, dropping, slapping onto sides of drum for a "normal" cottons or easy cares load.

See most recent comment regarding "over loading" here: http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?70230_9~1

Contrary to popular belief it is not tumbling round and round that cleans laundry in a front loader. Things need to be able to move about so the paddles can "lift and drop" laundry. Those same paddles in many H-axis washing machines scoop up water and "shower" it onto laundry. Miele is one brand of washing machine that made a big deal over their "scoop and ladle" system.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?70230_9~1

While both commercial and domestic H-axis washing machines are happiest operating at full rated loads for "normal" cottons or easy cares; 15lbs of say terry toweling (bath and hand towels along with wash cloths), will look vastly different than the same amount of say bed linen (sheets, pillow slips, duvet covers, etc..)

Cotton and to an extent cotton/poly blend clothing, terry toweling and some other textiles will compress down greatly once wet. Makers of washing machines both commercial and domestic know or should this when designing and marketing their machines.

Have literally stuffed a huge 50lb SQ front loader at local laundromat only to see the load compact down to half or three-quarters full once the load was totally wet.

Bed linen can tricky because not all weaves will compact down when wet. Crisp percales and some higher thread count muslins come to mind.



Here is another Unimac video of a laundry worker doing a load of eiderdowns. You'd think she had over loaded the machine, but after first spins it is apparent that was not the case. If this washer did a wetting down then fast spin to get out the air am sure things would look different off the bat.



Regarding bed linen and 140F. Yes, you do need high temperatures to really clean and sanitize bed linen. Especially if you only change the things once a week or (God forbid) less. By "changing" we mean taken off bed and linens sent straight to the wash. If they are going to sit around in a hamper or laundry bag marinating for a week or longer until wash day, well there you are then.

Main culprit are bodily secretions (sweat, oils, etc...) that build up on bed linen during use. These are the same oils that will eventually turn "rancid" and give the center of bed sheets, pillow slips and other parts in frequent contact with skin that ghastly yellow shade. Same as the "ring around the collar" stains that come from not totally cleaning shirts when laundering.

Higher wash temperatures also go along way to killing dust mites as well.

If you want to see how things are going with your bed linen wash day, observe wash and rinse waters as they drain from the machine. If you are seeing "scum" the sort seen when taking a bath, and it is still coming after the final rinse; that is the muck coming off bed linen which was not removed totally during the wash.
[this post was last edited: 4/15/2017-17:54]

 

[ptcruiser51]

Go with vinegar!

White, please! I have been using this for years. My General Electric TL has an acrylic tub, so I don't foresee problems. It has no fabric softener dispenser, so I just use a "Downy" ball and add a little water. I use Oxydol powder, ordered online, four boxes last me about a year. I want my clothes to smell like CLOTHES, not an "April Meadow", etc. When I worked at The Home Depot appliance dept., I used to almost gag when women (and men!) would come thru reeking of an OD of fabric softener. Ick! My sister has an outdoor clothesline, so she follows the hint from "Heloise" and hangs her wet clothes in the night air. Works OK except for towels. Five minutes in the dryer fluffs them up nicely.

 

[tomturbomatic]

If you look at formulas and programs for commercial machines, when the sour is a separate compound from the softener, the sour is added before the final rinse so there is a rinse afterward to dilute the acid in the fabrics. If you use vinegar in a washer with a porcelain tub, you want to follow the vinegar with clear water or a fabric softener rinse to remove traces of the vinegar. The porcelain coating is thinnest on the edges of the perforations of the tub. This is where the effects of vinegar will be noticed first and you will see little circular or semi-circular orange stains on the laundry if it is left in the tub for any time after the final spin.

 

[sel8207]

to see what it does;

I place half vinegar/half water in a dispenser bottle and pour it into the softener dispenser. The reason? I have softened water. When washing my hands with the soft water I can place some of the half and half vinegar and water on my hands and it gets rid of that slick soapy feeling instantly. (try it) I believe it does the same in releasing the detergent also. The chemicals in commercial softeners and detergents, leave a residue on the clothes and can't be good for your skin to absorb. Les.

 

[launderess]

IIRC the general rule for souring in commercial laundries

Is the if the work is to be ironed it is soured before the last rinse. However things that are to be tumbled dry can be soured in the last rinse. Indeed there is a vast array of sour/softener, sour/anti bacterial, sour/anti iron/rust/yellowing, and so forth mixtures designed to be used in the final rinse.

IIRC the theory behind souring before the final rinse is to ensure whatever residue is removed from textiles is flushed away. That and washing which is "too" acidic can cause problems with the flatwork ironers and or even show up as damage to the fabric itself (yellowing).

 

[mrboilwash]

My impression is it`s not just about the pH but also to great deal what type of acid is used when it comes to corrosiveness.

Vinegar for example should not be used to descale drip coffee makers because it attacks aluminum parts whereas a combination of citric, sulfuric and formic acid as found in some descaling products for coffee makers seems to be OK.
Maybe a chemist could shine some light on it ?
Liquid Fabric Softener is also pretty acidic at about pH 3 (undiluted) it is absolutely comparable to vinegar. Never heard about a damaging effect to washing machines though. So again I *think* it has something to do with what type of acid is used.

As to overloading washers I prefer my average loads no more than 3/4 full when wet and compacted, because overall wear on clothes is considerably less.
In an overstuffed drum where clothes just turn round and round without changing their position for a long time it means the same spots of the clothes rub against other clothes and the drum again and again. This means much more wear on fabrics than the gentle lift and drop of a loosely loaded drum where the mechanical energy is distributed evenly over the whole garment.
When it comes to cleaning I have to disagree about the 10 to 2 O`clock rule. If the wash cycle is just long enough it even seems to be possible to achieve A-Class results in a 5 minutes to 12 O`clock to 5 past 12 stuffed drum. As long as there is a little free space on top where soaking wet clothes bang against the drum there is washing action. Hence the absurdly long cycles and huge capacity statements of newer washers in the EU. I hate this developement !

 

[sudsmaster]

Liquid laundry detergents are not neutral pH.

According to the linked chart, they have been measured between 7.7 and 9.8, which is alkaline (7.0 would be neutral). Powders are more alkaline, measured between 8.3 and 10.9.

This means that a vinegar rinse will help to remove alkalinity from laundry washed with liquid laundry detergents as well as with powdered laundry detergents.

I use white distilled vinegar in my Neptune for the final rinse after using either powdered or liquid detergents.

Physical and chemical properties of selected laundry detergents

[Information first posted in the Appliances Forum by Alice (Alice_61) on 23 July 2002 in the "Technical Suds" thread - thanks, Alice!]: ------------------------------ Here is an update of the list of detergents and their properties that I have measured. All the detergents are either HE, u...

ths.gardenweb.com

 

[sudsmaster]

For those worried about vinegar in the final rinse causing problems...

Try adding the same amount of vinegar - one to two ounces - to five gallons of water - a typical rinse volume in a modern HE machine - and then taste the water. I'm pretty sure you won't be able to detect it.

Plus, any lingering vinegar will evaporate in the dryer or on the line.

As for vinegar and coffee makers - all the coffee makers I've bought recommend using vinegar in the descaling process. Vinegar is actually a relatively weak acid, and the usual concentration in household vinegar is only 5% acetic acid to start out with. Sulphuric acid would be extremely corrosive to aluminum components - don't use it in your coffee maker or laundry. If you doubt that, try putting a drop of battery acid on a piece of aluminum foil. The cleaning instructions for coffee makers all recommend rinsing out the diluted vinegar solution multiple times with fresh water. Even so, that vinegar solution (usually 50/50 with water, or 2.5% acetic acid) is far stronger than would obtained by adding an ounce or two of vinegar to a washing machine rinse cycle.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Coffee makers

My Bunn coffee maker recommends vinegar once a month, however, it has a stainless tank. Many less expensive, Read Mr. coffee, have plastic tanks; Which I don't think vinegar would phase at all.

 

[yogitunes]

my sister was, and probably still is, a dedicated user of vinegar in her rinse water

she had gone through two Kenmore belt drive machines.....what started out as a nice and shiny porcelain tub, within a year or so, the shiny surface was gone, and a rough surface was left behind, not enough to snag anything, but definitely not a smooth surface....

guessing a second rinse after the vinegar one might have made a difference, unknown at this point....

her recent machines have been Flers with the stainless tubs.....

 

[michaelman2]

Yep, as I posted above I use it each time I do laundry.   It makes a huge difference in the feel of the clothing and I do not have the detergent "itch" sometimes associated with agents that were not rinsed completely.  

 

I have used a small amount of vinegar when I am hand washing china and crystal...it seems to really remove any residue and leave the piece shiny or crystal clear.

 

[mrboilwash]

When I clean the bathroom I usually don`t wear rubber gloves, I just don`t like them.
So why does the skin of my hands peel the next day whenever I use the green vinegar based cleansers but it doesn`t when I use the lime and rust remover sprays.
I`ve checked msds and ingredients, the products are identical pH wise (around 2,2).
The green ones have only acetic and citric acids on the list yet they seem much more agressive to my hands than the one that uses a combination of phosphoric, citric, lactic and formic acid or another bathroom cleaner that uses sulphamic and phosphoric acid.

In my previous post I mixed up sulfuric acid with sulphamic acid (whatever that is). So appologies for the misinformation. Looks like descalers for coffee makers don`t contain small amounts of battery acid. But still most EU drip coffe makers advise against the use of vinegar.

 

[launderess]

"Liquid laundry detergents are not neutral pH"

If you read my post what one said was that liquid laundry detergents range from "near neutral to slightly alkaline". Not that *all* such products were of a neutral pH in water.

Granular "heavy duty" laundry detergents range in pH from about 10-11. Liquids OTOH are lower at between 7 to nearly 10.

You can see here that all Tide powder detergents have a higher pH range than their liquids. http://www.jondon.com/chemicals/laundry-detergents.html

You can see the ingredient list for P&G laundry detergents here: http://www.ariel.co.uk/en-gb/about-ariel/ingredients/laundrypedia-ingredients

https://sites.google.com/site/reuse...laundry-detergent/thephoftidelaundrydetergent

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussion...cal-properties-of-selected-laundry-detergents

Having said all this pH of laundry detergent alone does not tell the entire tale. One other thing to consider is *how* that level is arrived at; and often that means for powders the heavy use of salts (sodium carbonate/washing soda, borax, silicates, etc...). This versus monoethanolamine or other ammonia like chemicals which though capable of buffering action do not present the same issues as salts.

Instead of relying upon high pH levels for the chemical action to remove soils as found in powders, liquid detergents instead use higher levels of surfactants, along with pH buffering agents, and (usually) enzymes. Thus not only is the pH level for liquids lower you also aren't going to need to deal with the residues from dissolved salts that come from powdered detergents.

The pH of groundwater in much of the USA ranges from 6 to 8.5, thus rinsing alone will bring down the pH of laundry. The more rinses obviously the further reduction of pH. In an industrial setting laundries would use pH test strips to measure the final level of laundry, just as this enterprising person:
https://www.yourbestdigs.com/reviews/best-laundry-detergent/

 

[sudsmaster]

pH values of 8 to 10 are still alkaline.

And liquid detergent mfg's may deliberately make their products on the alkaline side because it boosts cleaning power.

As for salts... the problem may also come from hard water minerals in the tap water, as well as hard water minerals that are an integral part of most earth based soils (think: mud, grit, grime, etc...). These can easily bind to other components in the laundry detergent and form insoluble precipitates. These precipitates are what can cause harsh deposits on laundry.

The main products for home use that are pH neutral are some shampoos. It's the alkalinity of other detergents and soaps that stings the eyes. pH neutral shampoos are gentler on the eyes. But they might not work so well on really dirty hair (think lots of Brylcreem, LOL).

I'm sure we don't need to go over the role that an alkaline detergent plays in saponifying greasy soiling and remove it from fabrics efficiently.