Anyway, considering that fabric softener is a waxy lubricant ... vinegar doesn't function at all the same way as a softener.
Vinegar as a "softener"
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Anyway, considering that fabric softener is a waxy lubricant ... vinegar doesn't function at all the same way as a softener.
I'm sure we don't need to go over the role that an a
Which is why general liquid laundry detergents are more than alkaline enough to deal with "routine" cleaning. It is also why P&G, Henkel and other makers of both commercial and domestic laundry products sell various "boosters" that are mainly alkaline substances to deal with soils beyond what is normally found.
While yes, anything above pH of seven (neutral) is alkaline, as am sure you are aware that is not the whole story.
The pH scale is logarithmic. As such each whole value above seven represents a ten times increase in alkaline
So at pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline than the next lower whole value. A pH of 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than a pH of eight (8).
There exists a vast and bewildering array of both commercial and domestic laundry products that range from pH five to eight, thus slightly acidic through neutral to only slightly base. Many of these are heavy surfactant based products that excel in cleaning oily/greasy soiled linens.
Ecolab, Johnson Diversey, P&G, Henkel, the lot all produce such products.
https://www.hpproducts.com/ItemDisp...tergent-Plus-15gl&Brand=V002258&ItemID=194316
Some of the earliest "light duty" neutral powdered detergents such as Vel, Dreft and others were anionic surfactants such as alkyl aryl sulfonate.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/04/surfactants-alkyl-aryl-sulfonates.html
Have both vintage Dreft and Vel in my laundry stash, and am here to tell you neither have any problem coping with oil or fats. This is why these products were also heavily marketed to replace soap for dish washing.
Today most products sold for cleaning "fine laundry" are neutral, near or slightly acidic.
http://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/advice/a40870/wash-sweaters/
It really all comes down to what one is laundering and how badly it is soiled and by what types.
Bed linen normally is not that badly soiled. When it is the common type is oily/fatty substances from the human body. That and certain secretions of a portentous nature including sweat, blood and so forth. You don't need the full blast power of highly alkaline to strongly base laundry products to clean such laundry. As more and more hospitality and even hospital laundries are coming around to.
In fact as more and more laundry generated today is really only lightly to moderately soiled as far more persons are less employed in "dirty" occupations. This explains partially why liquid or gel detergents are displacing powders.
Commercial and industrial laundries operate under far different parameters than your average domestic setting. Thus it stands to reason that their processes would be different including use of laundry sours.
If someone wants to add vinegar, citric acid or anything else to their final rise; have at it. However am just saying without knowing or even any proof it is needed just don't see why bother.
It is like the whole "homemade laundry detergent" trend; just because one *can* do something, it does not follow that they should.
[this post was last edited: 4/17/2017-00:37]
Which is why general liquid laundry detergents are more than alkaline enough to deal with "routine" cleaning. It is also why P&G, Henkel and other makers of both commercial and domestic laundry products sell various "boosters" that are mainly alkaline substances to deal with soils beyond what is normally found.
While yes, anything above pH of seven (neutral) is alkaline, as am sure you are aware that is not the whole story.
The pH scale is logarithmic. As such each whole value above seven represents a ten times increase in alkaline
So at pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline than the next lower whole value. A pH of 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than a pH of eight (8).
There exists a vast and bewildering array of both commercial and domestic laundry products that range from pH five to eight, thus slightly acidic through neutral to only slightly base. Many of these are heavy surfactant based products that excel in cleaning oily/greasy soiled linens.
Ecolab, Johnson Diversey, P&G, Henkel, the lot all produce such products.
https://www.hpproducts.com/ItemDisp...tergent-Plus-15gl&Brand=V002258&ItemID=194316
Some of the earliest "light duty" neutral powdered detergents such as Vel, Dreft and others were anionic surfactants such as alkyl aryl sulfonate.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/04/surfactants-alkyl-aryl-sulfonates.html
Have both vintage Dreft and Vel in my laundry stash, and am here to tell you neither have any problem coping with oil or fats. This is why these products were also heavily marketed to replace soap for dish washing.
Today most products sold for cleaning "fine laundry" are neutral, near or slightly acidic.
http://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/advice/a40870/wash-sweaters/
It really all comes down to what one is laundering and how badly it is soiled and by what types.
Bed linen normally is not that badly soiled. When it is the common type is oily/fatty substances from the human body. That and certain secretions of a portentous nature including sweat, blood and so forth. You don't need the full blast power of highly alkaline to strongly base laundry products to clean such laundry. As more and more hospitality and even hospital laundries are coming around to.
In fact as more and more laundry generated today is really only lightly to moderately soiled as far more persons are less employed in "dirty" occupations. This explains partially why liquid or gel detergents are displacing powders.
Commercial and industrial laundries operate under far different parameters than your average domestic setting. Thus it stands to reason that their processes would be different including use of laundry sours.
If someone wants to add vinegar, citric acid or anything else to their final rise; have at it. However am just saying without knowing or even any proof it is needed just don't see why bother.
It is like the whole "homemade laundry detergent" trend; just because one *can* do something, it does not follow that they should.
[this post was last edited: 4/17/2017-00:37]
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
I've never liked the feel fabric softeners leave clothes with. Clothes always felt like they werenlt clean but almost slimy. The extremely oily skin I had a a youth (and still do, for my age) might have something to do with it.
My clothes get washed in warm with a splash of ammonia in lieu of bleach and white vinegar for fabric softener. Linens get the same in HOT. All comes out feeling clean & soft, slime free. Jeans seem to have fewer wrinkles.
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Linens: Last visit to an elderly relative to give respite to the main caregiver I was shocked to find the 'clean' linens not so clean. EVERYTHING got washed in HOT wash and hot rinse with severe bleaching, followed by a hot vinegar wash, followed by a full cycle as a rinse.
Care giver comes back and is amazed at the linens. Came to find out that she'd been following the care instructions on the tag: "Machine wash warm. Tumble dry low. No bleach" for white, 100% cotton incontinence pads!!!
My clothes get washed in warm with a splash of ammonia in lieu of bleach and white vinegar for fabric softener. Linens get the same in HOT. All comes out feeling clean & soft, slime free. Jeans seem to have fewer wrinkles.
-----------------------
Linens: Last visit to an elderly relative to give respite to the main caregiver I was shocked to find the 'clean' linens not so clean. EVERYTHING got washed in HOT wash and hot rinse with severe bleaching, followed by a hot vinegar wash, followed by a full cycle as a rinse.
Care giver comes back and is amazed at the linens. Came to find out that she'd been following the care instructions on the tag: "Machine wash warm. Tumble dry low. No bleach" for white, 100% cotton incontinence pads!!!
I tried the vinegar thing a couple of times in the Asko but I just didn't like it. I may try it again in the Miele.
pH is only part of the story...
If one is familiar the the concept of weak acids and strong acids, and of buffering, then one may understand that tap water at a, say pH of 10, likely has nowhere near the alkaline content to have ANY effect on washing. It would take only a small amount of acid to drop that pH down, unless the tap water also has a lot of buffering, which is possible since the weak base sodium phosphate is sometimes added to tap water to try to keep the pH reliably above 7. That's because acidic water has the unfortunate tendency to corrode water pipes, especially copper pipes which are so prevalent in today's homes.
This all has to do with arcane chemical concepts like dissociation constants etc. Suffice to say that acetic acid, which is the active ingredient in vinegar, is considered a weak acid. This means that it only partially ionizes, or dissociates, in water. Whereas hydrochloric acid is a strong acid, because it fully dissociates in water.
Similarly STPP is not as strong a alkali as sodium carbonate, with STPP producing typical pH of about 10, while sodium carbonate can product pH around 11. STPP however has some buffering capacity, so although its solutions produce a lower pH than sodium carbonate, they are better able to resist the addition of acid so the pH is more stable.
I will not at this time dwell on the other advantages or characteristics of STPP, as they should by now be well known to this group.
From my own experience I am not concerned about the use of vinegar in the final rinse, at least not in the very dilute amounts added (a couple of ounces of 5% in gallons of rinse water). Occasionally when I use vinegar in the rinse with, say, a relative small load of wool socks washed with a liquid detergent, I can detect a slight vinegar odor on the wet finished laundry. However this odor entirely dissipates upon drying. I have not noticed any ill effects on the stainless or plastic components of the Neptune washer. If anything, there is zero mold growth in the fabric softener dispenser, whereas it can be an issue with fat based fabric softeners.
If one is familiar the the concept of weak acids and strong acids, and of buffering, then one may understand that tap water at a, say pH of 10, likely has nowhere near the alkaline content to have ANY effect on washing. It would take only a small amount of acid to drop that pH down, unless the tap water also has a lot of buffering, which is possible since the weak base sodium phosphate is sometimes added to tap water to try to keep the pH reliably above 7. That's because acidic water has the unfortunate tendency to corrode water pipes, especially copper pipes which are so prevalent in today's homes.
This all has to do with arcane chemical concepts like dissociation constants etc. Suffice to say that acetic acid, which is the active ingredient in vinegar, is considered a weak acid. This means that it only partially ionizes, or dissociates, in water. Whereas hydrochloric acid is a strong acid, because it fully dissociates in water.
Similarly STPP is not as strong a alkali as sodium carbonate, with STPP producing typical pH of about 10, while sodium carbonate can product pH around 11. STPP however has some buffering capacity, so although its solutions produce a lower pH than sodium carbonate, they are better able to resist the addition of acid so the pH is more stable.
I will not at this time dwell on the other advantages or characteristics of STPP, as they should by now be well known to this group.
From my own experience I am not concerned about the use of vinegar in the final rinse, at least not in the very dilute amounts added (a couple of ounces of 5% in gallons of rinse water). Occasionally when I use vinegar in the rinse with, say, a relative small load of wool socks washed with a liquid detergent, I can detect a slight vinegar odor on the wet finished laundry. However this odor entirely dissipates upon drying. I have not noticed any ill effects on the stainless or plastic components of the Neptune washer. If anything, there is zero mold growth in the fabric softener dispenser, whereas it can be an issue with fat based fabric softeners.
"Have both vintage Dreft and Vel in my laundry stash, and am here to tell you neither have any problem coping with oil or fats. This is why these products were also heavily marketed to replace soap for dish washing."
This is so true. I got a deal on some minty boxes of vintage Trend and it works so well I almost wonder what all the excitement over liquid dishwashing detergents was about.
The drawbacks are mainly: 1) inhaling the detergent dust -- seems to be no way of avoiding it other than stepping back for a minute and letting it settle out of the air; and 2) it's too easy to overdose. Although you can do that with liquids also.
Otherwise, I'd have no problem using the vintage Trend or Vel for dishwashing.
BTW, great links, as usual, Launderess!
This is so true. I got a deal on some minty boxes of vintage Trend and it works so well I almost wonder what all the excitement over liquid dishwashing detergents was about.
The drawbacks are mainly: 1) inhaling the detergent dust -- seems to be no way of avoiding it other than stepping back for a minute and letting it settle out of the air; and 2) it's too easy to overdose. Although you can do that with liquids also.
Otherwise, I'd have no problem using the vintage Trend or Vel for dishwashing.
BTW, great links, as usual, Launderess!
inhaling the detergent dust
Ohhh yes,
When first started using vintage Dreft that powder went straight up my nose and provoked a fit of sneezing. Now wear a mask when pouring the stuff out and try not to disturb it more than necessary.
The boxes of Vel were so falling apart that emptied them all into large gallon sized zip lock bags. Here my previous nursing education helped as knew now to do it while minimizing dust. When needed just carefully scoop out the required amount.
Purchased these vintage early "light duty detergents" because it was cheaper than Orvus paste. Use these "neutral" detergents when cleaning and or restoring old linens and such. While they are good for silk and wool as well find they often strip too much of the natural oils, leaving things feeling a bit harsh. Happily have a good supply of Persil "Perwoll" so that's me for you.
Ohhh yes,
When first started using vintage Dreft that powder went straight up my nose and provoked a fit of sneezing. Now wear a mask when pouring the stuff out and try not to disturb it more than necessary.
The boxes of Vel were so falling apart that emptied them all into large gallon sized zip lock bags. Here my previous nursing education helped as knew now to do it while minimizing dust. When needed just carefully scoop out the required amount.
Purchased these vintage early "light duty detergents" because it was cheaper than Orvus paste. Use these "neutral" detergents when cleaning and or restoring old linens and such. While they are good for silk and wool as well find they often strip too much of the natural oils, leaving things feeling a bit harsh. Happily have a good supply of Persil "Perwoll" so that's me for you.
Downy Liquid FS for example has Formic Acid and Hydrochloric Acid (in small amounts) in its ingredients list. Both are rather stong acids, aren`t they ?
The product itself has a compareable pH to vinegar but it is safe to be used in a porcelain enameled washer.
I`m still not 100% convinced vinegar is safe on enamel because of my personal experience when I used it for cleaning purposes and because of reading the horrible reports on AW of what it can do to your washer.
pH neutral in shampoos, body washes and so on isn`t to be taken literally and on this one I know what I`m talking about. Those products are usually slightly acidic (pH around 5,5) to match the pH of healthy human skin.
So the term "neutral" is to be seen in reference to the skin instead of distilled water which of course is the "real" neutral at pH 7.
An alkaline pH in laundry detergents is not only beneficial because of saponification of fats (which may occur at least to some point) but it also increases the bleaching action of oxy bleaches, helps remove protein based stains by swelling such stains and fibers (think of a "break" or soak in washing soda or vintage Henko) and finally there is an effect that charges the fibers and dirt negatively which also helps in removing dirt.
The disadvantage is possible wear or even damage to fibers.
I`m still trying to figure out why liquid heavy duty detergents that contain enzymes always seem to be only slightly alkaline whereas non enzyme heavy duty usually are way more alkaline. I`m not sure if that has something to do with enzyme stability (they can`t be encapsuled as in a powder) or if high alkalinity just isn`t needed in enzyme containing liquids.
Purex liquid plus Clorox (with enzymes): pH 7,1 - 8,1
Purex liquid After the Rain (no enzymes): pH 10,2 - 12,2
The product itself has a compareable pH to vinegar but it is safe to be used in a porcelain enameled washer.
I`m still not 100% convinced vinegar is safe on enamel because of my personal experience when I used it for cleaning purposes and because of reading the horrible reports on AW of what it can do to your washer.
pH neutral in shampoos, body washes and so on isn`t to be taken literally and on this one I know what I`m talking about. Those products are usually slightly acidic (pH around 5,5) to match the pH of healthy human skin.
So the term "neutral" is to be seen in reference to the skin instead of distilled water which of course is the "real" neutral at pH 7.
An alkaline pH in laundry detergents is not only beneficial because of saponification of fats (which may occur at least to some point) but it also increases the bleaching action of oxy bleaches, helps remove protein based stains by swelling such stains and fibers (think of a "break" or soak in washing soda or vintage Henko) and finally there is an effect that charges the fibers and dirt negatively which also helps in removing dirt.
The disadvantage is possible wear or even damage to fibers.
I`m still trying to figure out why liquid heavy duty detergents that contain enzymes always seem to be only slightly alkaline whereas non enzyme heavy duty usually are way more alkaline. I`m not sure if that has something to do with enzyme stability (they can`t be encapsuled as in a powder) or if high alkalinity just isn`t needed in enzyme containing liquids.
Purex liquid plus Clorox (with enzymes): pH 7,1 - 8,1
Purex liquid After the Rain (no enzymes): pH 10,2 - 12,2
Mentioned this before
Long before enzymes appeared on the scene commercial laundries on both sides of the pond dealt with at least protein soils the same way; high temperatures and pH.
Laundries removed blood for instance by first a cool pre-wash/soak, the a hot or boil wash using soap and sodium metasilicate. Things would be kicked up a notch by adding bleach (oxygen or chlorine), and there you are.
This is pretty much how all laundry dealt with albumin soils before enzyme detergents came along. You soaked laundry first in cool water to which a bit of some base substance such as soda or silicate was added (think Henkel's Henco), then washed in hot or boiling water with soap and more of an alkaline substance.
https://mistralhowto.wordpress.com/...ilicate-pentahydrate-and-what-is-it-used-for/
As for enzymes and pH levels is seems they are rather tolerate of pH levels going high as 10 or so. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944501304000047
While today commercial laundries do have access to various detergents and boosters with enzymes, the standard industrial/commercial washing process is done from start to finish in about thirty to under 45 minutes. Since enzymes work best with long contact time the often short ten or less minute wash cycles probably aren't going to allow full potential. Of course modern computer controlled washers can have programs set to deal with any sort of soiling and product combination
The other remedy for removing blood; ammonia either as a pre-treatment or in wash is nothing more than an alkaline gas (ammonium hydroxide) dissolved in water.
Of course we know automatic dishwashing detergents contain highly caustic and high pH substances to not only break down fats and oils, but also starch and protein soils as well. This was one reason for including chlorine bleach which besides removing stains like coffee, tea, and red wine, also breaks down protein. This is the reason you cannot use chlorine bleaches on silk or wool as they are made from protein.
Long before enzymes appeared on the scene commercial laundries on both sides of the pond dealt with at least protein soils the same way; high temperatures and pH.
Laundries removed blood for instance by first a cool pre-wash/soak, the a hot or boil wash using soap and sodium metasilicate. Things would be kicked up a notch by adding bleach (oxygen or chlorine), and there you are.
This is pretty much how all laundry dealt with albumin soils before enzyme detergents came along. You soaked laundry first in cool water to which a bit of some base substance such as soda or silicate was added (think Henkel's Henco), then washed in hot or boiling water with soap and more of an alkaline substance.
https://mistralhowto.wordpress.com/...ilicate-pentahydrate-and-what-is-it-used-for/
As for enzymes and pH levels is seems they are rather tolerate of pH levels going high as 10 or so. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0944501304000047
While today commercial laundries do have access to various detergents and boosters with enzymes, the standard industrial/commercial washing process is done from start to finish in about thirty to under 45 minutes. Since enzymes work best with long contact time the often short ten or less minute wash cycles probably aren't going to allow full potential. Of course modern computer controlled washers can have programs set to deal with any sort of soiling and product combination
The other remedy for removing blood; ammonia either as a pre-treatment or in wash is nothing more than an alkaline gas (ammonium hydroxide) dissolved in water.
Of course we know automatic dishwashing detergents contain highly caustic and high pH substances to not only break down fats and oils, but also starch and protein soils as well. This was one reason for including chlorine bleach which besides removing stains like coffee, tea, and red wine, also breaks down protein. This is the reason you cannot use chlorine bleaches on silk or wool as they are made from protein.
liberatordeluxe
Well-known member
Have never used FS even in my hard water and clothes always soft. Another unnecessary concoction of synthetic chemicals in my opinion.
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
"Here my previous nursing education helped as knew now to do it while minimizing dust."
I missed that trick from my grandmother. I did learn to steam sterilize instead of boiling, how to give a shot, and how to change bed linens with a person in the bed the whole time. The last is a great party trick, let me tell you.
G'pa (a chemist) was environmentally conscious long before it was fashionable. He'd've loved this thread
Jim
I missed that trick from my grandmother. I did learn to steam sterilize instead of boiling, how to give a shot, and how to change bed linens with a person in the bed the whole time. The last is a great party trick, let me tell you.
G'pa (a chemist) was environmentally conscious long before it was fashionable. He'd've loved this thread
Jim
Thanks for the link to sciencedirekt about proteases and pH levels, I only skimmed it, but my impression is it is only about the prepared washing solution not product stability. Looks like proteases from powder detergents can tolerate higher pH levels and even higher temperatures for a certain period of time after they got in contact with the alkali by mixing with water.
I`m still uncertain about whether a high pH of a liquid detergent would affect enzyme stability or not.
I`m still uncertain about whether a high pH of a liquid detergent would affect enzyme stability or not.
It would seem modern enzymes in TOL liquid detergents
From the likes of P&G, Henkel and other dominate players are rather stable.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Form...for+multiple+enzyme+stability;...-a0112680744
http://www.novozymes.com/en/news/ne...s-more-consistent-wash-performance-in-laundry
At least here P&G does have "shelf life" information on their bottles of liquid detergents and fabric softeners. If you telephone P&G, give the code on bottle they can tell when it was produced. IIRC for fabric softeners P&G says they are supposed be good for a year or so after production. Cannot recall the exact number, but got it when a bottle of Downy had purchased but rarely used turned into a gloppy mess. P&G told me then that their laundry products do have a shelf life (who knew?), and that mine had "expired".
Have some vintage boxes of detergent powder with enzymes. Have used Axion in past with excellent results and that stuff is over twenty years old.
From the likes of P&G, Henkel and other dominate players are rather stable.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Form...for+multiple+enzyme+stability;...-a0112680744
http://www.novozymes.com/en/news/ne...s-more-consistent-wash-performance-in-laundry
At least here P&G does have "shelf life" information on their bottles of liquid detergents and fabric softeners. If you telephone P&G, give the code on bottle they can tell when it was produced. IIRC for fabric softeners P&G says they are supposed be good for a year or so after production. Cannot recall the exact number, but got it when a bottle of Downy had purchased but rarely used turned into a gloppy mess. P&G told me then that their laundry products do have a shelf life (who knew?), and that mine had "expired".
Have some vintage boxes of detergent powder with enzymes. Have used Axion in past with excellent results and that stuff is over twenty years old.
Reports of vinegar damaging washer tubs probably should be taken with a scoop of salt.
It has come to my attention that some sources recommend cleaning a washer by adding quarts if not gallons of undiluted vinegar directly to the machine, and then running a hot wash cycle. This is a far greater concentration of acetic acid than just adding an ounce or two of vinegar to the rinse cycle. Plus, the heat would potentiate the acid attack on porcelain, something that most rinse cycles, which use just cold tap water, would not do.
I would not recommend using such a combination of high vinegar concentration and heat in any washer. A couple of ounces in the last (cold) rinse, OK.
It's a matter of proportion and common sense.
As an aside, mineral scale would not build up in a washer that used phosphated laundry detergents on a regular basis. Just sayin'...
It has come to my attention that some sources recommend cleaning a washer by adding quarts if not gallons of undiluted vinegar directly to the machine, and then running a hot wash cycle. This is a far greater concentration of acetic acid than just adding an ounce or two of vinegar to the rinse cycle. Plus, the heat would potentiate the acid attack on porcelain, something that most rinse cycles, which use just cold tap water, would not do.
I would not recommend using such a combination of high vinegar concentration and heat in any washer. A couple of ounces in the last (cold) rinse, OK.
It's a matter of proportion and common sense.
As an aside, mineral scale would not build up in a washer that used phosphated laundry detergents on a regular basis. Just sayin'...
That freelibrary link was a good read. Had no idea that even the type of surfactants used in a liquid had an impact on enzyme stability. And it confirmed what I always suspected.
"Stabilization of enzymes in liquid laundry detergents is more difficult than in powders. In liquid systems, enzymes are easily denatured by detergent ingredients. Alkalinity, high water content and surfactant interactions are all capable of changing the three dimensional conformation of the protein."
My question why (when studying msds) enzyme containing liquid detergents always seem to be less alkaline compared to no-enzyme heavy duty liquids is finally answered.
"Stabilization of enzymes in liquid laundry detergents is more difficult than in powders. In liquid systems, enzymes are easily denatured by detergent ingredients. Alkalinity, high water content and surfactant interactions are all capable of changing the three dimensional conformation of the protein."
My question why (when studying msds) enzyme containing liquid detergents always seem to be less alkaline compared to no-enzyme heavy duty liquids is finally answered.
Liquids less base than powders
IIRC one of the links provided summed things up nicely; the enzymes are doing the work what once was done by high pH and water temperatures.
This is reflected in the gradual decrease on both sides of the Pond of average wash temperatures used in domestic laundry. The advent of enzymes what will work in "cold" or "cool" water has even further helped that "turn the dial" down marketing brigade seeking to increase energy savings.
IIRC one of the links provided summed things up nicely; the enzymes are doing the work what once was done by high pH and water temperatures.
This is reflected in the gradual decrease on both sides of the Pond of average wash temperatures used in domestic laundry. The advent of enzymes what will work in "cold" or "cool" water has even further helped that "turn the dial" down marketing brigade seeking to increase energy savings.
I get the point that enzymes do the work what once was done by high pH and water temperatures, but then we probably wouldn`t see powders which are still very high in pH anymore because they contain enzymes too.
One might argue this is because the bleaches still need the high pH to get going, but color care powders don`t contain bleach and are still high in pH.
Powders don`t necessarily have to be very alkaline, just think of powders for delicates, they were very common in Europe before liquids widely took their place.
So again I think the detergent industry would make liquids in higher pH if it was possible, but it looks like it isn`t because of product shelf life.
One might argue this is because the bleaches still need the high pH to get going, but color care powders don`t contain bleach and are still high in pH.
Powders don`t necessarily have to be very alkaline, just think of powders for delicates, they were very common in Europe before liquids widely took their place.
So again I think the detergent industry would make liquids in higher pH if it was possible, but it looks like it isn`t because of product shelf life.
Light duty laundry products for laundry
Such as delicates, silk and wool were and still are largely based on sulfates such as SLS, alkyl aryl sulfonate, etc... Tough powders they do not contain alkaline builders such as borax, washing soda or silicates.
One of the most common "detergents" used by quilters, special laundries, textile restorers and others is Orvus WA Paste, which is mostly sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS). http://www.conservationsupportsystems.com/product/show/orvus-wa-paste/detergents-soaps.
Those little blue and white tin cans of Woolite our mothers and many other females kept round for washing nylons, slips, and other "intimate apparel) was originally Sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate. Those bottles of Woolite were the same along with SLS.
SLS and other anionic surfactants are not fun things to inhale, trust me, I know. So can see why liquids and paste versions came about. Years ago now you could purchase hair shampoo as a paste/crème, but now think everything is liquids.
Such as delicates, silk and wool were and still are largely based on sulfates such as SLS, alkyl aryl sulfonate, etc... Tough powders they do not contain alkaline builders such as borax, washing soda or silicates.
One of the most common "detergents" used by quilters, special laundries, textile restorers and others is Orvus WA Paste, which is mostly sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS). http://www.conservationsupportsystems.com/product/show/orvus-wa-paste/detergents-soaps.
Those little blue and white tin cans of Woolite our mothers and many other females kept round for washing nylons, slips, and other "intimate apparel) was originally Sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate. Those bottles of Woolite were the same along with SLS.
SLS and other anionic surfactants are not fun things to inhale, trust me, I know. So can see why liquids and paste versions came about. Years ago now you could purchase hair shampoo as a paste/crème, but now think everything is liquids.
"So again I think the detergent industry would make liquids in higher pH if it was possible, but it looks like it isn`t because of product shelf life."
Well they "could" but why would they want to do so? Between surfactants and enzymes like Lipase the need for the brute force of high pH to saponify fats/oils/grease is reduced for most normal purposes.
Now if one has problems that cannot be shifted via the pH of regular liquid laundry detergent, makers have that covered as well; simply purchase any of the wide variety of "boosters" that are usually nothing more than alkaline substances (usually soda), more enzymes and bleach (oxygen).
On the commercial side laundries have access to "breaks" and other boosters including some pretty nasty things like sodium hydroxide (in a word, lye).
In old times lye was used in the home for laundry (as in lye soap) but I couldn't recommend that today.
Well they "could" but why would they want to do so? Between surfactants and enzymes like Lipase the need for the brute force of high pH to saponify fats/oils/grease is reduced for most normal purposes.
Now if one has problems that cannot be shifted via the pH of regular liquid laundry detergent, makers have that covered as well; simply purchase any of the wide variety of "boosters" that are usually nothing more than alkaline substances (usually soda), more enzymes and bleach (oxygen).
On the commercial side laundries have access to "breaks" and other boosters including some pretty nasty things like sodium hydroxide (in a word, lye).
In old times lye was used in the home for laundry (as in lye soap) but I couldn't recommend that today.
"It has come to my attention that some sources recommend cleaning a washer by adding quarts if not gallons of undiluted vinegar directly to the machine, and then running a hot wash cycle. This is a far greater concentration of acetic acid than just adding an ounce or two of vinegar to the rinse cycle. Plus, the heat would potentiate the acid attack on porcelain, something that most rinse cycles, which use just cold tap water, would not do."
Don't know about that method, but every packet of washing machine descaler such as that sold by Miele states clearly in directions several rinses with clear water must follow. Some professionals suggest doing a load of wash with a powdered detergent afterwards since the base pH will help neutralize any remaining acids.
Again many people pick up on these "home remedies" or whatever not fully understanding the science behind things. If one gallon of white vinegar is good, then lets go for two or more.
OTOH commercially prepared washing machine cleaners/decalcifer are formulated to give just the proper acidic pH in solution to get the job done without the potential for harm (if properly used).
That being said have used white vinegar to "clean out" my Miele from time to time; but the amount used along with other directions came from tech support.
Don't know about that method, but every packet of washing machine descaler such as that sold by Miele states clearly in directions several rinses with clear water must follow. Some professionals suggest doing a load of wash with a powdered detergent afterwards since the base pH will help neutralize any remaining acids.
Again many people pick up on these "home remedies" or whatever not fully understanding the science behind things. If one gallon of white vinegar is good, then lets go for two or more.
OTOH commercially prepared washing machine cleaners/decalcifer are formulated to give just the proper acidic pH in solution to get the job done without the potential for harm (if properly used).
That being said have used white vinegar to "clean out" my Miele from time to time; but the amount used along with other directions came from tech support.
