Why Do All Speed Queens Spray Rinse While Full of Water?

[qsd-dan]

"With the problem of spin drain being mentioned in GE service manuals for Filter Flow washers, in service manuals for Maytag washers, in-service manuals for speed queen washers..."

I'd like to see evidence of that. I have all of the Maytag service manuals and it's not mentioned in any of them. I also have most of the "Lets Talk Service" manuals from the 50's through the 80's and it's not mentioned there either.

"and we all know what happened when Whirlpool tried to pull a fast one and make a spin and drain direct drive washer it was a disaster. Whirlpool was taking back washers left and right customers are returning them to Sears."

Robert has mentioned several times on this site that LEAKS were the reason for the shift of spin drain to neutral drains in DD's. It had nothing to do with lint. Robert claims to have that documentation on that. This comment can be seen here at Reply #18.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?50379

 

[maytag85]

Reply #20

Dan, I updated my email on AW since the one I had posted on here was one in haven’t used in awhile and didn’t realize until now it was an email I no longer use. The one that’s posted is the email I am now using since I sent myself an email earlier and received an email from myself. Apologies for the technical difficulties, not the most tech savvy person in the world, though. You can send a email from that address and will try to respond ASAP.

 

[Chetlaham]

@DoDoes: No offense to you, but you have fallen for it my very good friend!

The electronic control in question not only senses moisture, but also cycles the heaters through added relays, controls the motor, does the cycle signal, does the wrinkle guard, senses the outgoing temperature and determines cycle timing as a whole. Nearly all of the mechanical timers outputs are literally run through the control board itself.

This is not in any way Whirlpools dryness sensor card that can be bypassed by using the timed dry cycle. Rather this is a full blown control board with the mechanical timer acting as a decoy. There is no way around it.

Yes, the dryness card accomplishes what you're defending. However a full blown central control board, not so much.

In other words there is no way to escape

 

[DADoES]

 
I'm aware of those KA/KM/WP dryers with mechanical timers the EvenHeat board. 

 

[Chetlaham]

@qsd-dan: John is forgetting all the Maytag advertising and service literature that bragged about their "swirl away drain" Or that I've personally gone to Maytag Home Appliance centers (before the Whirlpool buy out) explicitly being told the advantages of spin-draining by the sales rep, many of whom also worked as service techs and store owners.

John's hubris is making the feel good (for him) assumption that just because I've never sold washers and I've never been a service technician for a living (and I have stated this numerous times on this forum) must mean I've never done laundry, read service manuals, collected tech sheets, done hundreds of hours of research, read patents, took thousands of machines apart, rebuilt a few or have fixed a few major appliances on the side for people that needed them. Which is peanuts compared to power and electronics engineering btw.

When I see modern appliances, my brain automatically flashes these blue and red lines. If you think its bizarre, I'll take that as a compliment

 

[Chetlaham]

Even Heat Boards

Any idea why Whirlpool began adding them to some of their dryers?

 

[combo52]

Spin drain versus neutral drain top load washers

Hi Dan in reference to reply Number 20 If you look at the GE service manuals when they change the whole pattern in the sides of the wash basket in the late 60s they talked about the reason they did this was to reduce the amount of streaking on dark colored clothing from lint and detergent residue.

 

It’s a fact that Speed Queen builds conventional top load washers for Australia and Canada with electric train pumps because people don’t use dryers there is often and they get more complaints about the streaking from spin draining.

 

Having been a Maytag tech for and availing myself to the factory training for over 30 years this was often talked about the lint redistribution problem it was not put in manuals very often but there are references to it.

 

Maytag redesigned the balance ring on the dependable care washers when they went to the new tub cover this was to prevent the water from splashing over the edge of the tub and back over the clothing over and over again this was talked about in service training.

 

You can also see in the sales literature for the Norge built Maytag washers where they claimed your clothing would be so much cleaner with less residue in it because of the way the Norge design machine pumps the water out so fast and spin slowly and doesn’t slog the water back through the clothing like the machines they had built for years.

 

. The most ridiculous claim is that whirlpool went to a neutral drain because the initial spin drain direct drive machines leaked.

 

You can look through the Whirlpool service pointers they were and never any leak problems with those machines. But again you would’ve had to have been there and worked with these machines whirlpool did not put a lot of information out about the problem with lint they don’t like to put things like that in print just as Maytag didn’t either because their competitors would make hay about it, but if you talk to the engineers you heard it all the time.

 

I was talking to my old boss last night and I told him what was written and he just had Howells of laughter about that they never had trouble with these machines leaking, my business partner also was just absolutely roaring with laughter when I told him that somebody’s going around saying that was the reason they went to a neutral drain.

 

Whirlpool would not have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars redesigning washing machines because they couldn’t make a seal that kept the tub cover from leaking if that’s where they supposedly leaked, There are probably many millions of direct drive washer‘s running right this minute all over this country that are no longer neutral draining and none of them are leaking.

 

I’m really disappointed that you would even repeat such a ridiculous story it doesn’t bode well for your mechanical reasoning skills.

 

John L

[this post was last edited: 10/10/2022-22:00]

 

[combo52]

Whirlpool built dryers with even heat control boards

Chet this is not for you this is for everybody else that’s wondering why they did this you already know all the answers.

Putting the sophisticated control board in these dryers not only allows very accurate moisture sencing which resulted in fluffy clothing that was not over dried it saved energy it was a big safety advantage because the dryer would not run any longer than necessary.

It’s one of the many things that Have made modern dryers so safe and so unlikely to start fires As well as reducing energy consumption wear and tear on the machine and clothing as well.

John L

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

This is exactly why HE detergents exist!

 

[Chetlaham]

Except what you describe can and is accomplished via a simple dryness card.

https://www.genuinereplacementparts...-885469-dryness-control-board-genuine-oem.jpg

I'm talking about the full blown control board I pictured.

Whirlpool did this in part to mitigate the temperature swings of the heater cycling on and off via a mechanical thermostat. Unlike a Breville Smart oven, no such gain exists with a dryer.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 29

The even heat control board system will shut down a load within five minutes if it’s a text dryness, it will also shut down the dryer if it does not detect dryness within an hour and 10 minutes it won’t run all night if the heating element burns out for example.

The little circuit board that you picture is only a dryness board it will do neither of these things.

Your lack of knowledge about appliances it’s just amazing he really oughta do more homework before your post.

John L

 

[Chetlaham]

Modern Dryer Safety

The biggest change in modern dryers (besides physical alterations) to reduce fires has been the addition of thermal fuses. Its was not uncommon for the cycling stat in many heating appliances to weld shut resulting in the high limit taking over. Eventually the high limit inevitably had the same fate where it to welded closed. By adding thermal fuses to the exhaust and heater housing modern dryers have a near 100% reliable fail safe against overheating.

 

[Chetlaham]

Shutting down after 5 minutes of dryness (I'm assuming {hoping} this doesn't hold true for the timed cycle which is needed in order to use the Kenmore drying rack) and shutting off after 1 hour 10 minutes of moistness provides no meaningful gain in safety or performance when compared to the added complexity and failure points. Law of diminishing returns.

I'd argue there is more chance of the relays failing closed (relay failure is documented online) than the hazard of waiting for the dryness card to advance the timer to off after no moisture is detected.

 

[Chetlaham]

In Case The Obvious Was Missed

In the picture I posted both capacitors have their tops bulging, which means both caps have failed. This is to be anticipated.

https://www.xppower.com/resources/blog/electrolytic-capacitor-lifetime-in-power-supplies

Quoting:

"Manufacturers of electrolytic capacitors specify the design lifetime at the maximum rated ambient temperature, usually 105°C. This design lifetime can vary from as little as 1,000 hours to 10,000 hours or more. The longer the design lifetime, the longer the component will last in a given application and ambient temperature."

There are 8,760 hours in a year. Assuming a quality capacitor under ideal conditions, at 55*C, has an anticipated life between 64,000 and 160,000 hours.

Meaning with every electronic control added to an appliance, manufacturers know that a sizeable percentage will not make it past 15-20 years. The equivalent of adding a button cell battery to every machine that will cease function once the cell loses charge. Where as on the other hand EM timers can be economically made to last 40+ years as seen the real world.

There is no chemical change, degradation of paper or foil, electrolytic leakage ect in a timer motor that is simply copper, iron, and enamel.

 

[Chetlaham]

Capacitors in Storage

(I can't edit, so forgive just one more post)

"How long do electrolytic capacitors last in storage?

Can electrolytic capacitors, typically greater than 1 inch in length and diameter and used in power supplies, converters and inverters, should have a shelf life of about 20 years, based upon storage temperatures."

https://finddiffer.com/what-is-the-average-lifespan-of-a-capacitor/

20 years.

In other words every electronic control in a machine is a fruit or vegetable waiting to spoil.

Compared to vintage machines which will work to spec 60-80 years after taken out from an unopened box. Do EM timers have a shelf life?

 

[johnb300m]

I’ll just chime in saying that there might be a misconception here how large manufacturers work.
Many of them are very marketing-driven.
Secondly, manufacturing cost-driven.
If marketing says we need electronics to compete with X competitor. Or a focus group leaned towards people wanting to push buttons instead of turn dials, then marketing is absolutely going to press program management to start a project. Which in turn, goes to engineering where they are directed to look at moving timer controls to computer controls. It does not matter if engineering doesn’t like computers vs the timers. Unless the group of engineers can factually prove that computers would not save manufacturing costs over market demands, then electronics are inevitable.
This is how they all work. I’ve been at enough companies now and it’s exactly the same.
Only in the rare instances when engineering can solve a field issue or provide a solution that a) saves manufacturing cost, or b) provides competitive advantage in the market, will the engineering dept ever get equal say.
The whole world had gone to electronics. They are cheaper, easier to program, do a lot of dynamic functions, some do help the customer. Most save of cost of development. There’s not even much of a supply chain for mechanical controls anymore.
Sorry.

 

[ryner1988]

Not to jump on the mechanical bandwagon but...

There is one place in which electronic washers, and other appliances as well for that matter, are severely lacking, and that is in accessibility for those with disabilities, most notably visual impairments.

Back in the day, a blind person had only to put tactile markers on the dials of their appliances in order to make them usable. This could usually be done regardless of brand and features. As an example, I put little bits of tape on my mechanical DD washer, one on the pointer, and then on each on both the 10 and 14 minute markers on the regular cycle, respectively. I just line up the pointer to the cycle by feel and know that I am at the place I wish to be in order to start the cycle, or at least very close. If the tape was to fall off or get dislodged somehow, I know that roughly three quarters of a turn around the dial will get me within the 10-14 minute area of the dial, so that could still work.

On the other hand, some electronic machines, especially the more sophisticated ones with actual moving menus and flat panels, pose a real challenge for me. Some of them are just not usable in my situation. There are phone apps to help with a lot of this, but I would have to be very sure that the app is programmed to work well with the screen reader on my phone, i.e., all app functions properly labeled with text and not pictures representing text. In any case, these app-driven washers like the LG 4000 series front loaders are beyond the price range of many, and the models that don't have the app connectivity force the user to rely on the panel which is at least partially touch screen and inaccessible on its own.

Oddly enough, the VMW machines, while not great in the area of durability, are the most accessible modern machines I've found because they are still all knobs with only one push to start button. The way these washers behave is straightforward and predictable, making them nearly as accessible as the machines of yesterday. They also are the most basic of the electronic machines, so that tells me something.

 

[combo52]

Using modern washers for sight impaired people

Very good points Ryne well designed electronic laundry equipment should be able to be used today if it doesn’t use touch screens etc. were things move around.

As a dealer of major appliances we deal with this fairly often for our site impaired customers.

But even fully electronic appliances like the dryer that’s being discussed with the even heat board can easily be used by adding a few markings.

My new top-of-the-line Speed Queen frontload washer has a touchpad but each pad has only one function so again it’s easy to label it with either braille or little touch bumps so you can identify and make the Desired choices.

A well designed machine can be fully electronic and still user-friendly for people that cannot see the controls.

John

 

[gelaundry4ever]

speed queen

As a blind person, it would be nice if speed queen made washers and dryers that spoke out the cycles and options and what they do in addition to having buttons that you can feel.

 

[ryner1988]

Reply #37

John, you are quite right regarding the fact that electronic washers need to be well-designed and usable by all. I know it can be done, because it has. In 2007, I attended a center for the blind where they taught adaptive ways of performing various daily living skills, learning technology, etc. They had a washer and dryer set, Whirlpool duets to be exact, that were very accessible. They were electronic but the knob to set cycles had distinctive clicks, the modifier buttons were arranged sensibly and easy to feel, and different tones represented variations in water temperature, soil level, and spin speed. I believe that design went away when the duet line was discontinued, have no idea about Whirlpool FL's accessibility now but I believe they switched to a completely flat control panel. So yes, I am aware electronic washers can be made extremely usable, and it's upsetting that more and more manufacturers are opting for flat panels if not outright touch screens. I mean come on. I'm not a mechanical die-hard by any means but what the heck is wrong with a plain old button? I don't understand why touch screen is becoming so much the norm. Aesthetic appeal maybe?