Why Do All Speed Queens Spray Rinse While Full of Water?

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Reply number 29

The even heat control board system will shut down a load within five minutes if it’s a text dryness, it will also shut down the dryer if it does not detect dryness within an hour and 10 minutes it won’t run all night if the heating element burns out for example.

The little circuit board that you picture is only a dryness board it will do neither of these things.

Your lack of knowledge about appliances it’s just amazing he really oughta do more homework before your post.

John L
 
Modern Dryer Safety

The biggest change in modern dryers (besides physical alterations) to reduce fires has been the addition of thermal fuses. Its was not uncommon for the cycling stat in many heating appliances to weld shut resulting in the high limit taking over. Eventually the high limit inevitably had the same fate where it to welded closed. By adding thermal fuses to the exhaust and heater housing modern dryers have a near 100% reliable fail safe against overheating.
 
Shutting down after 5 minutes of dryness (I'm assuming {hoping} this doesn't hold true for the timed cycle which is needed in order to use the Kenmore drying rack) and shutting off after 1 hour 10 minutes of moistness provides no meaningful gain in safety or performance when compared to the added complexity and failure points. Law of diminishing returns.

I'd argue there is more chance of the relays failing closed (relay failure is documented online) than the hazard of waiting for the dryness card to advance the timer to off after no moisture is detected.
 
In Case The Obvious Was Missed

In the picture I posted both capacitors have their tops bulging, which means both caps have failed. This is to be anticipated.

https://www.xppower.com/resources/blog/electrolytic-capacitor-lifetime-in-power-supplies

Quoting:

"Manufacturers of electrolytic capacitors specify the design lifetime at the maximum rated ambient temperature, usually 105°C. This design lifetime can vary from as little as 1,000 hours to 10,000 hours or more. The longer the design lifetime, the longer the component will last in a given application and ambient temperature."

There are 8,760 hours in a year. Assuming a quality capacitor under ideal conditions, at 55*C, has an anticipated life between 64,000 and 160,000 hours.

Meaning with every electronic control added to an appliance, manufacturers know that a sizeable percentage will not make it past 15-20 years. The equivalent of adding a button cell battery to every machine that will cease function once the cell loses charge. Where as on the other hand EM timers can be economically made to last 40+ years as seen the real world.

There is no chemical change, degradation of paper or foil, electrolytic leakage ect in a timer motor that is simply copper, iron, and enamel.

chetlaham-2022101110002602448_1.jpg

chetlaham-2022101110002602448_2.jpg
 
Capacitors in Storage

(I can't edit, so forgive just one more post)

"How long do electrolytic capacitors last in storage?

Can electrolytic capacitors, typically greater than 1 inch in length and diameter and used in power supplies, converters and inverters, should have a shelf life of about 20 years, based upon storage temperatures."

https://finddiffer.com/what-is-the-average-lifespan-of-a-capacitor/

20 years.

In other words every electronic control in a machine is a fruit or vegetable waiting to spoil.

Compared to vintage machines which will work to spec 60-80 years after taken out from an unopened box. Do EM timers have a shelf life?
 
I’ll just chime in saying that there might be a misconception here how large manufacturers work.
Many of them are very marketing-driven.
Secondly, manufacturing cost-driven.
If marketing says we need electronics to compete with X competitor. Or a focus group leaned towards people wanting to push buttons instead of turn dials, then marketing is absolutely going to press program management to start a project. Which in turn, goes to engineering where they are directed to look at moving timer controls to computer controls. It does not matter if engineering doesn’t like computers vs the timers. Unless the group of engineers can factually prove that computers would not save manufacturing costs over market demands, then electronics are inevitable.
This is how they all work. I’ve been at enough companies now and it’s exactly the same.
Only in the rare instances when engineering can solve a field issue or provide a solution that a) saves manufacturing cost, or b) provides competitive advantage in the market, will the engineering dept ever get equal say.
The whole world had gone to electronics. They are cheaper, easier to program, do a lot of dynamic functions, some do help the customer. Most save of cost of development. There’s not even much of a supply chain for mechanical controls anymore.
Sorry.
 
Not to jump on the mechanical bandwagon but...

There is one place in which electronic washers, and other appliances as well for that matter, are severely lacking, and that is in accessibility for those with disabilities, most notably visual impairments.

Back in the day, a blind person had only to put tactile markers on the dials of their appliances in order to make them usable. This could usually be done regardless of brand and features. As an example, I put little bits of tape on my mechanical DD washer, one on the pointer, and then on each on both the 10 and 14 minute markers on the regular cycle, respectively. I just line up the pointer to the cycle by feel and know that I am at the place I wish to be in order to start the cycle, or at least very close. If the tape was to fall off or get dislodged somehow, I know that roughly three quarters of a turn around the dial will get me within the 10-14 minute area of the dial, so that could still work.

On the other hand, some electronic machines, especially the more sophisticated ones with actual moving menus and flat panels, pose a real challenge for me. Some of them are just not usable in my situation. There are phone apps to help with a lot of this, but I would have to be very sure that the app is programmed to work well with the screen reader on my phone, i.e., all app functions properly labeled with text and not pictures representing text. In any case, these app-driven washers like the LG 4000 series front loaders are beyond the price range of many, and the models that don't have the app connectivity force the user to rely on the panel which is at least partially touch screen and inaccessible on its own.

Oddly enough, the VMW machines, while not great in the area of durability, are the most accessible modern machines I've found because they are still all knobs with only one push to start button. The way these washers behave is straightforward and predictable, making them nearly as accessible as the machines of yesterday. They also are the most basic of the electronic machines, so that tells me something.
 
Using modern washers for sight impaired people

Very good points Ryne well designed electronic laundry equipment should be able to be used today if it doesn’t use touch screens etc. were things move around.

As a dealer of major appliances we deal with this fairly often for our site impaired customers.

But even fully electronic appliances like the dryer that’s being discussed with the even heat board can easily be used by adding a few markings.

My new top-of-the-line Speed Queen frontload washer has a touchpad but each pad has only one function so again it’s easy to label it with either braille or little touch bumps so you can identify and make the Desired choices.

A well designed machine can be fully electronic and still user-friendly for people that cannot see the controls.

John
 
Reply #37

John, you are quite right regarding the fact that electronic washers need to be well-designed and usable by all. I know it can be done, because it has. In 2007, I attended a center for the blind where they taught adaptive ways of performing various daily living skills, learning technology, etc. They had a washer and dryer set, Whirlpool duets to be exact, that were very accessible. They were electronic but the knob to set cycles had distinctive clicks, the modifier buttons were arranged sensibly and easy to feel, and different tones represented variations in water temperature, soil level, and spin speed. I believe that design went away when the duet line was discontinued, have no idea about Whirlpool FL's accessibility now but I believe they switched to a completely flat control panel. So yes, I am aware electronic washers can be made extremely usable, and it's upsetting that more and more manufacturers are opting for flat panels if not outright touch screens. I mean come on. I'm not a mechanical die-hard by any means but what the heck is wrong with a plain old button? I don't understand why touch screen is becoming so much the norm. Aesthetic appeal maybe?
 
Slight correction...

I guess, thinking back, it was 2009 when I attended the blindness center, not 2007. Forgot I did it too years into college, rather than directly after high school as many people do. I think the duets they had at that time were fairly new, but I'm not sure when the accessibility features were introduced to the line-up, nor the exact year the Duet was discontinued.
 
"All spin drain machines have the potential to leave scum and lint plastered on clothing."

That's funny, I have never had that problem in 35 years of personally running Maytags.

"Having been a Maytag tech for and availing myself to the factory training for over 30 years this was often talked about the lint redistribution problem it was not put in manuals very often but there are references to it."

Never had those problems.

"Hi Dan in reference to reply Number 20 If you look at the GE service manuals when they change the whole pattern in the sides of the wash basket in the late 60s they talked about the reason they did this was to reduce the amount of streaking on dark colored clothing from lint and detergent residue."

We're discussing Maytag here and you have provided no evidence. You also have provided no evidence for GE or Speed Queen other than "Trust me Bro" promises. Scan and post the articles. Put up or shut up.

"Maytag redesigned the balance ring on the dependable care washers when they went to the new tub cover this was to prevent the water from splashing over the edge of the tub and back over the clothing over and over again this was talked about in service training."

Evidence, please. Maytag redesigned the tub cover because it was much faster and easier to remove/install vs the older style. It's a nice design but the cover gasket doesn't last nearly as along as the older triangular seal. There's also no adjustment that I know of in the newer style tub cover to compensate for damper pads that glued a bit down or off center like the older design. I just checked to the upper portion of my tub cover, there's no dirt, scum, or deposits under there. I must be doing something right.
 
from the picture of the electronic board I could say you have to change the electrolytics as they seem leaking.

bewitched-2022101508335901767_1.jpg
 
Leaked Caps

@bewitched: You are correct. The caps have leaked, an inevitable early failure which I am being told is justifiable based on being able to shut off early if the heater burned out.

Because in the end, why would anyone deserve this happening to them? >>>





The 40 year old GE dryer:

chetlaham-2022101614194702366_1.jpg
 
40 year old GE electric dryer

I don’t think you could’ve picked up potentially more dangerous dryer.

It was very common for the heating elements to short out in the zone ground to the housing or to the second heating element.

There’s no safety thermostat or thermal fuse on The right side of the heater circuit.

So you take a 15 to 20 year old GE dryer where the timer hasn’t worked for a year or so and a slightly clogged vent the user puts a load of clothing in either runs to pick up the kids or heaven for bid goes to sleep or falls asleep with the dryer running and you’ll be lucky if you wake up you could wipe out a whole family and a house from the resulting fire once the vent tubing catches fire and the clothing of course is already burning.

No thank you I’ll take the dryer with the circuit board that at least controls a potentially dangerous appliance

John L
 
Now your thinking! :)

In your example the soft heat control board still won't fully protect occupants because 1 hour and 10 minutes would need to elapse before 2,700 watts of heat (heater coil shorted in the center) are disconnected. Yes you have a thermal fuse on the blower housing that would drop the motor and in turn the right side of the heater, but that relies on air flow from a relatively unobstructed vent.

My solution to this would be what Maytag did: add a double pole high limit on the heater housing, switching both sides of the heating element:

https://www.applianceaid.com/images/de312diagram.JPG

In conjunction with two thermal fuses on each leg of the heater as the assumption I make being that all high limits will eventually weld themselves closed.

Most US dryer manufacturers made and still make this awful mistake of not having any type of comprehensive thermal protection on the right side of of the heater circuit, even major players like Whirlpool:

https://www.applianceaid.com/images/siedelectronicwd2.JPG

To me this is unspeakable and should never have been allowed. 240 volts in the US is 120 volts to ground. Even then a person should never rely on polarization in a 230 volt L-N system.

But thats point I've been trying to make all along. Dryer fires can be eliminated via low cost passive measures vs complex and unreliable schemes which in of give rise to other shortcomings.

I'll take more thermal fuses over anything else, but it seems like it take gobs of dryers fires to get people to look past dogma.
 
And in defence of that GE dryer ;)

Technically there is a safety thermostat on the right side of the heater circuit. The motor's neutral is run through it and its mounted to the heater's housing.

If the heater hosing did begin to overheat from a grounded heater the high limit would open dropping the left side of the heater, while the safety stat would then open dropping the motor which would cause the centrifugal switch to open the right side of the heater.

If anything having the safety on the heater housing or more ideal than whirlpool placing it on the exhaust blower.

-----But-----


Its all a moot point either way. Murphy's law has the final say. From my view of the world:

1) relays weld themselves closed
2) triacs fail shorted
3) timer contacts weld closed
4) centrifugal switches fail to open
5) cycling stats weld shut
6) high limits weld shut
7) thermistors read as they please
8) motor burn out
9) non discrete failure modes come knocking with vengeance
10) there is no such thing as zero volts to ground

As such the only common sense solution IMO is to have thermal fuses on both sides of each heating element, with at least two on the theater hosing and at least two on the blower housing. Yet somehow this is to expensive, but a touch screen is always attainable.

chetlaham-2022101621021000733_1.jpg
 
Maybe they should put a overheat buzzers in dryers where they use a double throw switch on the high limit safety thermostat and if it were to trip, it would sound a buzzer and shut the machine off to let the user know that there’s a airflow pro with either a full lint screen or restricted vent. Definitely would encourage people to have the venting clean along with cleaning the lint screen after each load.
 
I can imagine something like that coming about, but with electronics.

I remember Kenmore had a whistle device that would sense the air pressure before and after the lint filter and would alert if the screen had not been cleaned.

Smart idea.
 
Reply #49

I believe some of the 1956 and 1957 Kenmore dryers had a light that would illuminate letting the user know to clean the lint screen.
 
A Good Idea

Kind of like Kenmore Vacuums. They had a red light come on when the bag was full. I think Kenmore sold the best vacuums on earth. I have one of their last uprights from 2012. I love it.
 
I think Kenmore sold some good vacuums, maybe not the very best but I would still buy one today. Keep in mind that Kenmore is just a brand, they have other manufactures that make vacuums and other machines for Kenmore. Example Panasonic, they've made vacuums for many years under the Kenmore brand but they've also sold vacuums themselves as well. Mainly at vacuum stores where Panasonic had put more money into their machines to make them even better. I totally would've bought a Panasonic over a Kenmore.
 
What do you think of this vacuum? Its the one I have as of 2012. I love, love, love it.

https://www.mercari.com/us/item/m29...MIzqrc2dfp-gIVQYNbCh3VrQEZEAQYBCABEgJhh_D_BwE

You know more about vacuums than I do, however when it comes to major appliances I humbly chose Kenmore. While they are made by others like Whirlpool; Sears had tremendous control over the features, cycles, build quality, and just about anything else imaginable. I often found the best features for the lowest prices on Kenmore machines. Cycles and features not found on other brands. Having a company like Sears who knew what consumers wanted and a company like Whirlpool who knew how to build working mechanics meant a win-win product that had it all for the price.
 
Kenmore branded Appliance build quality

There was never any difference in build quality of Kenmore appliances and the appliances that the manufacture built for their own brand.

The Kenmore brand did have some pretty good appliances at one point, but their stoves are always crap their dishwashers were crap until whirlpool came into the picture in the mid 80s.

The last decade or two of appliances got really bad because they literally had eight different companies making them, and you could no longer count on the Kenmore brand giving you a great product it was just a crapshoot.

John L
 
Made by Panasonic

That vacuum was alright, not my favorite because it uses a direct drive brushroll. I wished Kenmore was still selling their Professional 12 & 15 uprights because those were in my humble opinion the best Kenmore upright vacuums ever sold. They were made in Germany like when Kenmore had their front load washers made in Germany at one point. But those vacuums were made by Sebo. They make and sell professional commercial grade vacuums for hotels, offices, schools, churches, etc. They are like the Speed Queen of vacuums! Anyways, I wished Sears was still selling them because they use belts that are guaranteed for life. The purpose of direct drive brushrolls is they never use belts, they use a motor to drive the brushroll. But they were proven to be problematic and I never found them to clean as well or better than belt drived brushrolls. That's why Panasonic themselves quit making direct drive brushrolls on their own vacuums. I have a couple of Professional 12 uprights and they're one of my all time favorites! When your Kenmore dies, I'd highly recommend to look into Sebo at your local dealer. They're one of if not the best vacuum companies out there!

Courtesy to gmerkt on vacuumland.org

https://www.sebo.us/
panasonicvac-2022101814084000507_1.jpg
 
Sebo vacuums

Are not only made well but everything on a Sebo is replaceable/repairable and so make quite a decent investment I have new thick carpet and out of all the vacs I have the best one is the Sebo X4 pet Automatic it rises on its own and makes vacuuming much easier, I also have Sebo Felix they are brilliant on thinner carpet and hard floors but unless you turned the suction to low and raised the brushbar it would stall and so made it hard to use. I also have C1 Pet from Sebo its a brilliant canister vac great for stairs and upholstery as well as hard floors it does have a Airbrush but that refuses to move on new carpet so its left upstairs to deal with kitty litter !!
 

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